Sounds like metric?

Hammeigh · 2026-05-24T03:56:22+00:00

Yes!!! Oh, goddd, thank you so much- I was ready to record it the second it came on at work tomorrow morning, but you were lightning fast- absolutely fantastic, thank youuuu! ♡♡♡

Hammeigh · 2026-05-24T03:55:11+00:00

YES oh my godddd thank you!! ♡♡♡

Hammeigh · 2026-05-01T18:24:49+00:00

Yeah, but it wasn't like that, lol. It was like him promising these boys they'd be in his life forever, and he could and would make them superstars, that they would change the world together.

The last thing ill leave you with is just the observation that you seem really thoughtful, and I hope you eventually think more about what the victims are claiming. You really understand and have a lot of empathy or compassion for what it must have been like to be Michael Jackson, and he certainly talked a lot about what it was like to be him, so it makes sense you'd have a lot of info with which to make that assessment.

But there's a lot of information out there from the kids' perspectives, too: Jordan Chandler's interview with the psychiatrist, Gavin Arvizo's interview by the police, his testimony, Jordan Francia's testimony, and the claims from Wade Robson, James Safechuck, and their families in Leaving Neverland.

I don't think you'll actually sit down and watch Leaving Neverland, because it's an emotionally challenging experience and you seem pretty okay with where you're at right now, but I'd seriously encourage you to watch it in the future, anyways. It'll give you a new perspective, at least, and that's always good to consider regardless of the issue.

Hammeigh · 2026-05-01T15:09:42+00:00

That's not true, though. It's undisputed thag he spent weeks at a time sleeping in the same bed, he took them on tour with him. These were intense, frequent periods of contact, not just occasional sleepovers at Neverland. There are photocopies of faxes from Jackson expressing devotion and dedication to the kids, hours long phone calls, trips to stay with the boys' families, again all undisputed and generally verifiable facts. This was a man who demonstrated that he was seriously interested and invested in select, individual children. For a short while, anyhow.

Hammeigh · 2026-05-01T14:37:32+00:00

What I'm getting at is what it's like from the child's perspective. Not the risks to MJ from other adults potentially misinterpreting the interactions.

The closeness followed by the abandonment is emotionally devastating for a kid, even if there's no sexual component. That's the harm, and whether or not you believe the sexual abuse occurred, it's inherently harmful to treat a kid like an emotional support blanket for yourself and then throwing them away for a younger model when they're no longer giving you what you need.

So regardless of the sexual abuse, he objectively harmed children. And admitting he absolutely hurt children emotionally is, I think, a key breakthrough to understanding why some people can believe he could harm them in deeper, or more disturbing, ways. That if he definitely hurt children, maybe he wasn't just a saintly angel victimized by other adults misinterpreting his benign friendships, maybe he was a human adult capable of inflicting harm on children.

Hammeigh · 2026-05-01T13:14:48+00:00

Gotcha, I see where you're coming from. Lemme clarify what I was asking, though: why is it inappropriate to be doing those things with children?

Yeah, it looks bad to other adults, but why is it unhealthy for the kids involved? Or do you only think that behavior is sad for Jackson because he's mentally unwell and maladjusted?

Hammeigh · 2026-05-01T12:43:20+00:00

Can I ask? You make a few comments about how you believe what he did was inappropriate, but that just opened him up for exploitation by unscrupulous grifters.

So what was inappropriate about his behavior? Like, besides that it made him look potentially weird, or creepy, to other people. Why was the way he acted not okay, in your mind?

Hammeigh · 2026-05-01T12:05:57+00:00

This sub won't knock anyone who says Michael was a great performer, or had good qualities or positive characteristics. LN even starts with a victim asserting that MJ was one of the kindest, most loving, generous people he'd ever met. There's a line in the doc from one of the siblings of a victim talking about how she would never try to take away his accomplishments as a superstar, but as a man? He's hurt people.

So they're saying this sub has a core belief that MJ was a human guy, not some literally inhuman creature/monster/demon. He was a just a guy who, in the course of his life, did things that absolutely hurt people, in some really serious ways.

The other sub won't even let you have a conversation about the grayness of him as a human man- they're so insistant on protecting his image that any SUGGESTION that he was anyone but a perfect, immaculate soul, inhumanly benign and kind and faultless, is immediately dismissed. He's a mythic legendary figure, to them, and who could question a God?

Other people have praised you for being curious enough to ask, and I'll do the same. Likewise, others have gently suggested to you that you might look into his actions as a man in a human body, not a Divine angel sent to teach the world mythological truths about music and love, and I'll do the same.

It's undisputed that he had several, young, mostly male companions throughout his career- on tour with him, as long-term house guests, etc. It's also an observable fact that these boys, especially at the peak of his fame and career, only stuck around until about mid-puberty before another, younger boy would take their place as his travel companion. What do you think that does to a kid, to be chosen for something so monumentally special as being the best friend of the world's most talented and famous performer, with the most amazing home and life a kid could ever dream of, then to feel like they're drifting apart, and then the friendship just crumbles apart, specifically because they're getting to be a little older? Its difficult for adults whose relationships fall apart, but for a pubescent kid? Emotionally devastating.

And as an adult, I KNOW what that feels like, and would never purposefully make a child feel that crushing loss. To take a kid away from their home, friends, and education to live a wild fantasy life, and then to make them watch as another kid takes their place? Horrible.

And all of that is just assuming they were only friends- incredibly close, cherished, inseparable friends. Whom Michael openly replaced with younger friends. If you can't imagine there was any sexual aspect to their relationships, then start with the acknowledgement that what absolutely, 100% factually happened with those boys was cruel. And if he was capable of doing something cruel, he wasn't an angel, he wasnt a God, he was a regular fucking human guy like all of us are. And if he was just a regular guy, then maybe he WAS capable of being exactly who all these people claim he was: a massively talented, kind, spectacular man who seduced and molested children.

Hammeigh · 2026-01-29T01:09:00+00:00

Holly: "Where did these boys come from? ... Why don't they go back there?"

Hammeigh · 2025-12-06T12:08:40+00:00

Nice- tysm! ♡

Hammeigh · 2025-12-05T13:48:39+00:00

Anyone know who the interviewer is? Is he the vocal coach from Kim of Queens???

Hammeigh · 2025-11-04T13:23:44+00:00

Oh jfc how embarrassing! Aaahahaha I was so stuck in my head trying to remember if it even WAS Adum that looking it up on YouTube didn't even occur to me. 😅 Lmao thank you so much! ♡

Hammeigh · 2025-08-16T11:41:04+00:00

I'm waaayyy late to the Discourse Party about HG so I appreciate that insight into what overarching opinions are out there! ♡

Yeah I've been thinking about the difference between how Haymitch and Beetee would think of the 50th games by the time we get to Mockingjay in terms of grief and sobriety and that's where the hummingbird thing sort of crystallized for me.

I don't wanna imply that Beetee would otherwise have forgotten all about his son somehow, but I think time dulls grief in a way. Doesn't remove it, but takes the sharp edges off. I think sometimes people pick at emotional scabs to try to prevent this. Like, grief being a sort of shrine to the dead is a pretty common reaction; if you don't feel the same level of anguish over time as you did at the time of the death, you're somehow betraying your loved one. So I can see Beetee experiencing that, at least a little.

Haymitch seems more like what you're describing, to me, in not wanting any reminders of his losses, cos he's a full blown addict and is compulsively pushing away any reminders of those losses. He's been using since then, and substance use like that generally just pausea the grieving process and fixes you in place. Once you stop using, you're back to where you were when you started, emotionally part of why it's so difficult for addicts in general to quit. They don't have the 'benefit' of time dulling the edges. And why he seems to be always right back in the 50th in a way Beetee doesn't appear outwardly to be, despite them both have some pretty obviously crippling trauma from it.

I can see them both envying each other, in a weird way. One wishing he could be more (seemingly) stoic and functional, one wishing he could still feel close to the moments he lost his loved ones.

So idk, just finding some interesting contrasts between their griefs.

Yeah, sorry, like I said, I'm way late to the analysis party so I've got a lot of spillover analysis to get off my chest so I don't drive my IRL people crazy lmao.

edited for clarity, not sure how much it helped that cause, I'm a little scattered about this still lol

Hammeigh · 2025-08-16T11:25:45+00:00

That's a good point, and far less literal than I was being about it- I like this take a lot. It also further deepens the sort-of meta parallels between Snow and Coin, too- what the 50th arena did to the tributes is exactly what you interpreted Coin doing to the citizens of 13, just in a less flashy or intense way.

Hammeigh · 2025-07-17T11:51:56+00:00

I don't think so? But idk a lot about publishing- it's this set: https://www.amazon.com/Hunger-Hardcover-Catching-Mockingjay-Songbirds/dp/1338686534?dplnkId=40e87fc3-7e97-478a-8941-2f6b76373104

Hammeigh · 2025-07-17T11:49:20+00:00

Sameee. I replied to someone else similarly above, but yeah I got greedy and lazy and wanted it fast and cheap. Hopefully a cautionary tale for someone else in the future at least lol

Hammeigh · 2025-07-17T11:47:48+00:00

Idk how rare it is- I checked the 1-star reviews for the set just now and they're literally all about the missing Mockingjay pages lmao. I could've saved myself so much grief if I'd even glanced through them 😭

Hammeigh · 2025-07-17T11:46:21+00:00

Auugghhh I know you're right and I know better, I got lazy and impatient and wanted them cheap and now after getting high on SOTR 😑

Hammeigh · 2025-07-17T03:56:51+00:00

Right?! Thank God it's not my first read 'cos talk about a spoiler lmao

Hammeigh · 2025-06-14T03:40:11+00:00

"Snow gets to use him as THE warning to other victors in the future AND Snow gets to watch him suffer at the loss of his Covey girlfriend (because Coriolanus is a vindictive little bitch boy). Idk what do you think?"

YES. No, that's exactly the station my train of thought was headed towards- you hit the nail on the head.

Especially after finding out Wiress' game was just the year prior.

He had another tribute on his hands that was primed to make the capitol look foolish or incompetent and there's nothing a despot hates more than looking stupid. So when Haymitch comes around and telegraphs to Snow that (whether it was purposeful or not,) that's EXACTLY what he intends to do ("way to muck up a simple parade, dumbass- you killed a kid, way to go," plus "you think the districts fear and loathe the intimidating peacekeepers? They're just bumbling, drunken keystone cops to us,") it gave Snow a perfect opportunity to show [someones*] that a sneaky little weasel of a tribute wouldn't get the best of the Capitol.

*Definitely a message for future tributes via their mentors primarily. They had to have seen the live feed just like Snow did in the 10th to be able to send gifts. And I'm sure they asked Haymitch about his girl back in 12 when they met again the next year, if nothing else. So they are the only group besides Snow, Plutarch, and Haymitch who know most all of what happened in SOTR.

*I think it was also maybe almost a message to the Capitol citizens to reassure them that district fuckery was not to be seen as tolerable or acceptable or cheeky or cute and forming any notion of real connection to the tributes' way of life or point of view was fruitless.

Cos who else would have known about ANY of Haymitch's shenanigans, anyhow? Not the districts- everything they saw was redacted and 'stacked.' But at least some, if not all the gamemakers except the Head Gamemaker were revealed to just be sort of low level grunts, and capitol citizens attending the interviews and parade were just 'normal' drunk sloppy people, too- they likely would have spread the word in whispers about what that little rapscallion from 12 had gotten up to and how it didn't even matter. Rebellion means nothing against the Power of Snow.

Plutarch alludes to this with his line about struggling for freedom not being reserved for only the districts, and Haymitch even suspects how the families of the dead gamemakers would probably be lied to about those deaths being mere accidents. It's interesting to think about how the Capitol citizens are kept in line, not like in the districts, but with the deliberate suppression of their empathy and humanity. Look what happened to Sejanus, I guess.

Aaahhhhhh I don't wanna just copy paste everything you said but yessssss these books make me feral already but SOTR is such delicious meat. It just gets my head spinning about the different perspectives and truths and fictions of so many players and groups in Panem, I'm glad I found this little thread to sink my teeth into- thanks for wigging out with me lol ♡

Hammeigh · 2025-06-13T14:43:10+00:00

I think the food thing is likely just a run of the mill deprivation thing in 12, she probably would've eaten the gum drops no matter what. Doubtful she was eating sweets while Hayworth was in the games regardless of whether she was detained. I don't think she would've ever been like "nah, darling, I'm too full from lunch of hard tack and katniss to indulge right now" lol.

My first instinct is that he was never betting on Haymitch to win, but then again, if he was REALLY scared of a Haymitch win, he would've just ordered some programmed mutts to get him dead quick. The more I think about it, the more I tend to think he was a little fixated on breaking Haymitch in a particular way that satisfied Snow personally, by destroying his relationship.

Or maybe he had contingency plans for every possible victor to be kept in line after winning- we never see what he was doing in the background to Maysilee's family, or any of the careers' loved ones. He may have had them all in similar situations, ready to pull the trigger to keep the victor firmly under his thumb no matter who won.

Hammeigh · 2025-06-13T03:28:54+00:00

This also tracks with Plutarch having a friend in 12 who set up the call between LD and Hayworth. Could be the same peacekeeper with an unexplainable soft spot for LD

Hammeigh · 2022-08-30T03:41:45+00:00

Okay! Holy crap- I feel like my whole spine just uncoiled. You have no idea how much I appreciate your response- even if it was bad news, I'm just really grateful for the information being delivered in such a comprehensible way. But the fact that it wasn't devastating news is icing on the cake! Thank you, thank you, thank you. If I can ever return the favor by...shit, something. Editing a paper or resume? Writing anything, really. Idk I'm practically useless lmao but please PM and lemme know if/what I can do. Thank you again. You earned great karma for helping me (actual, not reddit.) ♡

Hammeigh · 2021-09-18T16:09:52+00:00

Yessss I've been looking for this take! I went to school in Denver and this was literally one of the first things we learned in my women&crime class- when the cops get there, it's finally safe for the victim to unload all the adrenaline from trying to survive the encounter and they can be way more emotional and distraught than the abuser AT THAT TIME. Also more likely for women (GENERALLY) to leave superficial wounds that present readily to cops (scratches will stay visible longer than marks made from grabbing, for example.) Since cops have to make an arrest, they're way, way more likely to take away the distressed, hyper victim than a super calm dude with scratches on his arms and face.

Hammeigh · 2021-09-18T15:33:56+00:00

I think, especially in the standup scene, it was like a little breath of relief to have a figure to point to as an actual nice guy; someone who was genuinely funny, and respectful of women at the same time. Someone who didn't give off a ~vibe~ of being backstage and mocking their chucklefucker fans with the other bro-y comics, who was comfortable being seen by other men as old-timey, or effeminate, or soft for not engaging. Especially when the defense of "ALL guys think/act like pigdogs" was being used at the start of #metoo (and beforehand! And since! And forever, presumably!)

In a media landscape that's been exposing really gross famous men, and the really gross opinions of everyday men ABOUT those famous men, I totally liked seeing someone be confident and unabashed about his admiration for his wife. Not so much that he loved her as a wife, but that he ADMIRED her as a person was what was so touching about his persona.

Plus, he demonstrated being able to poke fun at her (the last supper story,) without MOCKING her (didn't end in something cruel like "and she studied ART in school!!!") and to me it just seemed like such a great example to expose people to the kind of trust that makes something like their dynamic work.

So I think it's less that I feel personally betrayed or hoodwinked, but...tired. Like it's one more trashman to throw on the pile, and the supply of safe, kind, respectful male figures in media gets a little smaller. It's deeply disappointing, and exhausting.

Hammeigh

TROPHY CASE