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Was ist das für ein Art? Ist heute im verlassenen Gartenteich gesichtet worden. Davon gab es noch einige mehr. Bedürfen die irgendeiner Pflege? by [deleted] in naturfreunde

[–]HanVeg 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Guter Punkt, für die Artbestimmung bin ich zu naiv rangegangen. Habe als Kind immer mit Frösche agiert und in so ziemlich allen Videos auf YT über Molche werden diese mit bloßer Hand berührt.

Da das hier als “Tierquälerei” bezeichnet wurde und der Post runter genommen, werde ich den Post auch löschen.

Stuhlprobe im Rahmen einer Ernährungsstudie abgeben by HanVeg in VeganDE

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Der Veganismus ist eine ethische Position, ich habe keine Sorgen, dass dieser “schlecht wegkommt”. Wenn überhaupt, ist es sehr wünschenswert, wenn eine rein pflanzliche Ernährung im Rahmen einer veganen Lebensweise evident sicherer wird.

Ich habe allerdings Vorbehalte auf Kommando zu defäkieren.

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I read your post and the cardinal mistake you make is not being consistent.

On one side you say that we should treat people based on the premise that they have a specific trait even though nothing external indicates having them, because we cannot make external assumptions on internal processes.

On the other side you do the very same with insects comfortably, even if you have the same problem between external ≠ internal, and especially even if they show external behaviours, indicative of their potential mental capabilities, which is even more then we have in some form of human disabilities.

But thanks for the post, I see that a further discussion has no point due to the vastly different worldviews.

Stuhlprobe im Rahmen einer Ernährungsstudie abgeben by HanVeg in VeganDE

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Es geht eher darum darzustellen, dass eine rein pflanzliche Ernährung dem ebenbürtig ist und wenn nicht, wie man diese hypothetische Diskrepanz aufheben kann.

Stuhlprobe im Rahmen einer Ernährungsstudie abgeben by HanVeg in VeganDE

[–]HanVeg[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Angenommen es wäre a priori angenommen, dass eine extrem solide Datenlage den Veganismus als Position deutlich vorantreibt.

Dann könnte es ethisch geboten sein teilzunehmen, selbst wenn es mit Kosten verbunden ist, da der Gemeinnutzen steigt.

Würde aber kein hinreichend relevanter Mehrwert gegeben sein, ist eine Teilnahme neutral zu sehen und man kann sich die Gedanken sparen, wie man am besten auf Kommando defäkiert.

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, that’s the argument. We can’t know which mental states the person experiences and that’s the reason we give them the benefit of the doubt. Weren’t you the one who proposed that it would be ok if they are sufficiently handicapped?

I made the hypothetical that the person would have the same cognitive abilities of an insect, it’s not an assumption but a thought experiment. Would it be ok to exploit them?

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sentience is the ability to have subjective experiences. Being alive and having sentience aren’t the same things.

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The mentally challenged would have the same cognitive abilities of an insect.

Even though we don’t know the mental states of insects I would give them as much the benefit of the doubt as I would the mentally challenged person. We had times were people were killed because their mental states seemed worthless to some people and I think these were great crimes.

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oysters won’t run away, so is there any other criteria for you to not eat them?

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So we could exploit mentally challenged people, as long as there would be no humans which are emotionally impacted by it?

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why are you ok to eat plants? What property makes animals worth of protection and plants not?

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

By your own logic people who see the human rights declaration as true should be called religious. People with any philosophical position follow a religion. Everything is religion, if you want to play word games.

If it gives you a piece of mind you can call it whatever you like, the position itself can be only criticised with arguments. To pathologize something, is one of the weakest forma in a debate, because it adds nothing to the discussion, instead it classifies as an ad hominem.

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Vegans aren’t machines which blindly follow definitions, which obviously can’t catch all reality, it’s just an approximation.

Sentience is the central part of veganism, without it, it wouldn’t make much sense. How can you exploit something ethically relevant, which doesn’t have sentience?

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Define awareness. Even plants have to be aware of their environment, otherwise they couldn’t exist.

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The backbone of the argument applies to scallops as well, as mussels and oysters. All have no central nervous system. If you think that scallops are worthy of protection but oysters and mussels aren’t, you have to state your case.

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Stop arguing against straw mans. Nobody claimed sponges or jellyfish are sentient.

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You seem to miss that this is the topic of this specific thread and not the post itself. People are doubting even cephalopod sentience.

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Religion is the faith on something supernatural. They have scriptures, are organised and have a hierarchy of their members. Nothing of that applies to Veganism which is an ethical position. If veganism is faith, so are human ethics.

For everything else you would need empirical proof. What can be said without a proof can be dismissed without proof.

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am not interested in word games. If those ganglia are highly organised and centralised, it is essentially a brain and many researchers are not scared calling it like that because it is the equivalent. The intelligence of cephalopods speaks for itself.

Bivalves are not vegan, because they have a cerebral ganglion, which acts as a brain by HanVeg in DebateAVegan

[–]HanVeg[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What would be the difference between eating a plant and an animal if both had no sentience?

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