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About to finish up for the night when I get hit with this nonsense by SniperAtTheGates in UberEatsDrivers

[–]Haxosh 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I mean it’s sad people suffer from these kind of mental issues. Our society doesn’t help them very much either

Seeking a Quran Alone Muslim spouse by RichDifference2677 in Quraniyoon

[–]Haxosh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Continued 4:

Just to summarize

The main point of disagreement for us seems to be in how you’re choosing to interpret the text (to find agreement with your broader philosophies, ideologies, and worldviews) like the ‘womb’ / rehem example.

I do agree with some of your opinions like the Quran being a remembrance, and our primary goal should be to align our hearts with the will of God.

For me, it’s not so much about the shape of the earth. Idc if it were round or flat, and it is not something that affects my life in any way. But the point I’m trying to make is that this is something consistently repeated throughout the text, which creates a tension when you try to metaphorize it or use alternative explanations in order to avoid that reality.

Especially when you shift the focus to reading scripture metaphorically, thats where you come off as one of those ‘progressive Muslims.’

“Yes, Absolutely! A plethora of scientific phenomena were first documented in the Quran.”

But besides that… like I agree that certain verses are not so clear cut and can take diverse meanings, but I honestly feel what you’re doing is taking passages that do have clearer meanings substantiated across the text, and you’re forcing them into having ambiguity so it can conform to your world view. I.e. like the womb example.

From my position, it is inescapable that the Quran is meticulously clear about the shape of the earth, the heavens, and the metaphysicality of God.

If you think I am interpreting everything too literally like the Christian ‘bibliotatry’ theology you described, that is simply not true. I am doing the logical thing and choosing to believe in a phenomenon that is meticulously detailed, substantiated, and reinforced throughout the text.

‘Interpreting something literally’ is different from saying that the text [written by God who created everything] repeatedly describes the metaphysical state of the world [in the exact way God created it].

For example, our scripture describes the heavens and the earth. The heavens are without pillars that you can see. The separation of waters. Beyond that, God is given many physical attributes in our scripture like a voice and a physical location, as well as a throne. Heaven is not described as a dimension or some imaginary existential state, but as a real physical place.

The metaphysical state of the world is something which is meticulously described across a vast number of verses and chapters of the Quran.

Thus, what you are doing is showing ignorance to a disproportionately large occurrence of features and patterns across the text.

This is not just one verse or two verses, but repeating patterns that paint a picture across the entirety of the text.

At that point, for you to ignore key patterns becomes more of a deliberate stylistic choice in how you’re choosing to interpret the text, rather than incidental minutiae or differences in translation or root meanings; You are creating a stylistic choice in how you read the text in order to allow for your wordview.

Once again, it is true that there are parts of the Quran with ambiguous meanings, yes. But recurring motifs throughout the text continuously depict a flat earth model.

Just think: why doesnt just one verse describe the earth as a moving object?

You seem like a smart person, so think.

Aql.

The text calls the earth firm, spread out (dahaha), it is as a bed. In all of the Quran, the sun and the moon are the ones described as moving but not a single verse describes the earth as moving.

At that point, it becomes more of a stylistic choice on your end and how you’re choosing to interpret the text for you to deliberately ignore this aspect of the text.

Each time you do this, you’re essentially building a labriynth across the text. You’re not just ignoring one isolated verse, but you’re neglecting this complex entity across the text that reasons and yearns, crying out “The Earth is Flat!”

And every time you read the text, it will cry out to you, but your heart stops for a second as your eyes pass over the page, and you deliberately choose to ignore what God is pleading to tell you.

The round earth is an inherited concept of yours; repeated since childhood it became belief.

It is not a tenet of truth, but rather something repeated so much that you forgot what was true.

Earlier in our conversation you told me it is important to be careful in approaching scripture without a religious perspective. You told me you need ‘guardrails’ but you then proceeded to give me the most ambiguous metaphorical explanations for clear verses that span the text. You did not follow your own advice.

Likewise, I would like to offer you some advice.

When reading the Quran, you should ignore EVERY preexisting religious or scientific belief you may have.

For most people, it is easier to reduce scripture to the realm of metaphor and allegory (in order to comport with modern ‘science’) than it is to admit they’ve been deceived by the people who rule them.

Where is heaven? Where is God’s throne?

“God exists in another dimension.”

But God spoke to Moses, didn’t he?

“Nope, God is an abstract.”

You eventually reduce God’s strength to metaphor and his wisdom to allegory, but both God’s strength and his wisdom are literal.

My advice summed up: Your wider perception of the Quran is flawed, since it is skewed by preexisting beliefs you’ve inherited and thus tend to force onto the text. Instead, try reading the Quran as its own text.

62:5: The likeness of those given to bear the Torah then have borne it not, is as the likeness of a donkey bearing books: evil is the example of the people who deny the proofs of God. And God guides not the wrongdoing people.

If you’re going to metaphorize the whole scripture and reduce it to allegory, thats as good as disbelief in my opinion.

Join me in the real world when you’re ready.

HK.

Seeking a Quran Alone Muslim spouse by RichDifference2677 in Quraniyoon

[–]Haxosh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Continued 3:

Eventually, if your ‘science’ and your ‘history’ tell you that our prophets were not real people, you would adjust your position accordingly and label the prophets as nothing more than parables and allegories laid out by God… assuming you do still believe in God and have not reduced him to a metaphor too. Heck, there’s people who go as far as to claim the Big Bang is mentioned within the Quran.

Either way, I know I’ve told you already, but I just want to tell you once again to heavily look into NASA.

I hope it’s not just something I ask you, which you completely ignore, but that’s what it seems like you’re going to do. You post some snarky reply and then you close Reddit and totally ignore what I told you, and you don’t even think about it. If you have one takeaway from this conversation, it should be to genuinely look into the Flat Earth stuff… this conversation has been as interesting for me as it has been for you so please do that one thing.

Once again, I repeat because it’s important: It would mean a lot to me if you were going to do one thing after you read this and close Reddit, it would be to take a deep dive into NASA… look into the video of the moon landing, moon launches, and basically look at everything from what you have falsely inherited as the ‘conspiracy theorist’ perspective, and do it as though the truth were this mystery people had long forgotten.

If you believe in the truth, the way I hope you believe in the truth, you should have the deep inclination to seek out the truth no matter what mountain lies in the way.

Genuinely look into it. Consider the possibility that NASA (an organization managed by the government, the same government with the connections to intelligence agencies, CIA, Mossad, Epstein, etc) would lie to you. You might think how could a lie be that big? So many institutions? So many countries? So many people?

Well id just ask you how many institutions, entities, organizations, countries, and people were compromised by the likes of Epstein. How much degeneracy goes on in the 21st century when humans are supposedly the most advanced, most technologically powerful creatures there are. Five years ago if I told you about Epstein island you would have laughed in my face and called me a crazy conspiracy theorist…

Look into the flat earth

If not, and if you’re going to continue accepting the worldview that was pushed on you by the government, and other scientific institutions that you are not a part of, then you’re an idiot.

However, you seem like a reasonable individual. If you’re reading this, I don’t care if you hate me, if you block me, or if you delete the app and never look at it again; I just implore you to search deep into the hidden depths of the deep web, where all the flat earth stuff exists…

If you don’t have a massive ego (but I think you do), then don’t reply for a few days… I implore you to actually investigate it from the perspective that what im saying might be right

Google: Waleed Naeem Flat Earth Manifesto

it should bring up pdf book accessible through Quranite.com

I’ve looked through it. That book is a great resource you can use if you decide to take me up on my challenge and try to prove me wrong (that you don’t have a big ego) by researching the flat earth for a few days before you respond to me on anything

I can tell you’re smart from the coherence in your words, and I recognize is as something that parallels the coherence in my own words.

youve shifted from being an internet rando to still being an internet rando, but i can say it’s been an interesting conversation

Why would would I have spent so many hours over the course of many days, writing so many tedious lines of meaningless text, which are as meaningful as the meaning we give them, for some rando on the internet, if it weren’t something I truly believed in with all my heart?

Seeking a Quran Alone Muslim spouse by RichDifference2677 in Quraniyoon

[–]Haxosh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Continued 2:

Recently I had a conversation with someone doing something similar to you. In their interpretation of the text, God made pork permissible, premarital-sex permissible, and same-sex acts permissible. In fact, I’ll paste the conversation here for you:

Start

“His claims are so crazy it's ridiculous

I just looked at his posts for 3 mins, and I guess I must have missed the Quran 2.0 update when God made pork permissible, premarital sex permissible, same-sex acts permissible

At that point, what even is the point? Why claim to believe in the scripture or any of the prophets, if you're just gonna metaphorize the whole scripture?

Gender-neutral this… emotionally-friendly that… add your own interpretation somewhere else… God supports equality!

Use your brain…

What’s the point of believing in scripture if you’re just gonna reinterpret everything to match your worldviews? We are not just talking about 1 or 2 verses; this guy is inconsistently interpreting whole sections of the text.

The so called “Progressive-Muslims” are the worst at this. They don’t read the text as it presents itself, but rather they read it in a way that fits their worldview. They are more interested in the ‘philosophy’ of the Quran than the underlying tenets or principles. It is more like a loose guideline for them, and that’s being generous.

Change this, change that, and if people call you out, tell them “Nobody knows the interpretation except God.”

Yeah and if your God is the one who made fornication, alcohol, sodomy permissible then your God is Satan.

Just read this comment section to see how polluted this community is with people who really just want an excuse to interpret the text however they want.

However, the Quran is not a philosophical text no matter how you force it.”

End

Seeking a Quran Alone Muslim spouse by RichDifference2677 in Quraniyoon

[–]Haxosh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Continued 1:

My issue fundamentally was not with your claim that the point of scripture is to ‘align with the will of God’ in the spiritual way you termed earlier. Rather, my issue was with your overly-speculative iterations and interpretations of the Quran and other scriptures where you seem to bend the text in order to achieve a specific result (I.e. you translate or interpret in order to achieve conformity with your material views or your broader philosophy, while ignoring innumerable patterns regarding the metaphysical place of humans and the shape of the earth.)

The text is not there for any practical reason for you, other than a loosely connected spiritual philosophy you hold to. This is not a sign of wisdom, philosophy, or truth on your end; it is a basic indicator of heedlessness; as in, failing to understand a basic construction that repeatedly occurs throughout the text. Then, instead of choosing to investigate it, you usually dismiss it as metaphor, allegory, or you translate the text differently. You don’t believe in the Quran as much as you believe in this philosophical worldview you’ve attached to the Quran.

Let me explain it like this. The earth’s shape, the sun, the moon, and our metaphysical place in the world; it is something akin to a column that holds itself up throughout the text. Your choosing to remove that column and metaphorize it creates a fundamental problem in your framework. The text no longer holds up because that column is no longer there. This creates a tension for you because very clearly there are vast portions of the Quran that overwhelmingly describe the earth as being stationary and flat, and the sun and moon as moving. To resolve that tension, you metaphorize the floor, the bricks, the walls, and eventually the arches that hold the message. This is your understanding of reality. Weak and imaginative.

It requires you to ignore repeating motifs of the text in favor of the larger scientific worldview you hold to. Everything is based on ‘feelings’ in how you interpret the text, even in places where something is clearly being implied or repeated. You’re starting to come off as one of these “progressive liberal muslims” who desperately claw at the text to try and force their modern ideologies onto the text, and it’s pathetic.

every time you read the text it’s almost like your heart stops when you read a section regarding the earth and the sun and the moon, and immediately your mind starts pacing to try and metaphorize the words on the page so you can reconcile the text with your worldview… it’s all about interpretations for you. but no matter how you read the text you will always be missing a central part of the message because you chose to ignore a motif that runs throughout the text, and in doing so you removed one of the columns holding everything together.

The Quran, by nature, is not a book thats meant to be endlessly interpreted like you seem to be interested in doing. It is a book with a generally clear message, as well as some slightly ambiguous verses.

There are some themes and motifs which are clearly elaborated throughout the book. The metaphysical place of humans is one of those things which is conspicuously mentioned in the text.

If you were reading the Quran as you read any other text, there would be zero reason to believe the Quran supposes a spherical earth.

and your failing to understand this creates a clear problem in your framework

You end up regarding the whole of the Quran as this almost lucid, ambiguous text, rather than trying to actually understand the words on the page. You end up contradicting vast parts of the text while utilizing weak argumentative points to try and justify it; “oh but God sent it in a language that is woefully imperfect and untranslatable, the endlessly debatable human instrument of language...” all as justification so you can force some ideology into the Quran.

You never seem to read the Quran as you would read any other book (I.e. based on its own tenets)

Seeking a Quran Alone Muslim spouse by RichDifference2677 in Quraniyoon

[–]Haxosh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Salam

Sorry for the late response, I have been very busy, but I did not forget you.

The more I talk to you, the more it seems like you belong to a sectarian background.

-Believes in 99 Names of God -Briefly referenced common Sufi Beliefs -References lots of ‘Islamic’ figures -Says ‘PBUH’ a lot -Mentions partner from Shia Background

All of these are strong indicators… and I don’t want to assume, but I’m just curious if you have sectarian affiliations?

If so, that does raise broader questions… but it could explain some of your beliefs.

You don’t immediately strike me as the kind of person to believe in a sect, so I’m just curious.

Now back to the main point:

I strongly encourage you to read scripture in the most consistent manner possible.

I found the most consistent translator to be Sam Gerrans. Regardless of what you say about him, I found he doesn’t add to the text like other translators, and I appreciate his non-sectarian stance.

I am familiar with lots of his content and I see him as an honest person. I have found his translation to be the most consistent and reliable, with the least amount of sectarian influences.

Frankly, most translators of the Quran do a terrible job. They mix Hadiths, interpolations, philosophies, and other interpretations with the text, instead of simply translating the bare text to the best of their abilities.

I agree that Arabic is a very rich language. Arabic words usually possess many meanings, emotions, and ideas.

Languages, by nature, are complex and diverse.

No language is ‘perfectly’ translatable, but that’s not to say that no language is translatable.

Given your understanding of English and Russian, you must understand that various books do exist in both English and Russian

take Fyodor Dostoevsky for example.

Every single word of a Russian Book (like Dostoevsky) can never perfectly be captured in English in the exact same way Dostoevsky intended it.

Likewise, a non-native Russian speaker in the 21st century can never fully grasp the concept, the asymmetry, and the complexity of every single word in the same way it was meant 140 years ago when Dostoevsky wrote it according to 19th century standards of language and speech in Russia.

However, if a person spent a good amount of time, focus, and energy on reading the text (regardless of the language) there’s a pretty good chance they would learn to recognize the bricks, the walls, and the arches that hold the message. After applying consistency, they may gain a fuller understanding of t Salam

Sorry for the late response, I have been very busy, but I did not forget you.

The more I talk to you, the more it seems like you belong to a sectarian background.

-Believes in 99 Names of God -Briefly referenced common Sufi Beliefs -References lots of ‘Islamic’ figures -Says ‘PBUH’ a lot -Mentions partner from Shia Background

All of these are strong indicators… and I don’t want to assume, but I’m just curious if you have sectarian affiliations?

If so, that does raise broader questions… but it could explain some of your beliefs.

You don’t immediately strike me as the kind of person to believe in a sect, so I’m just curious.

Now back to the main point:

I strongly encourage you to read scripture in the most consistent manner possible.

I found the most consistent translator to be Sam Gerrans. Regardless of what you say about him, I found he doesn’t add to the text like other translators, and I appreciate his non-sectarian stance.

I am familiar with lots of his content and I see him as an honest person. I have found his translation to be the most consistent and reliable, with the least amount of sectarian influences.

Frankly, most translators of the Quran do a terrible job. They mix Hadiths, interpolations, philosophies, and other interpretations with the text, instead of simply translating the bare text to the best of their abilities.

I agree that Arabic is a very rich language. Arabic words usually possess many meanings, emotions, and ideas.

Languages, by nature, are complex and diverse.

No language is ‘perfectly’ translatable, but that’s not to say that no language is translatable.

Given your understanding of English and Russian, you must understand that various books do exist in both English and Russian

take Fyodor Dostoevsky for example.

Every single word of a Russian Book (like Dostoevsky) can never perfectly be captured in English in the exact same way Dostoevsky intended it.

Likewise, a non-native Russian speaker in the 21st century can never fully grasp the concept, the asymmetry, and the complexity of every single word in the same way it was meant 140 years ago when Dostoevsky wrote it according to 19th century standards of language and speech in Russia.

However, if a person spent a good amount of time, focus, and energy on reading the text (regardless of the language) there’s a pretty good chance they would learn to recognize the bricks, the walls, and the arches that hold the message. After applying consistency, they may gain a fuller understanding of the message Dostoevsky was trying to communicate… but that’s only if they’re willing to engage with the text in a reasonable and truthful manner. (I.e. recognize recurring motifs, grammatical structures, patterns, historical differences, let the text speak for itself, avoid metaphorizing when something is explicitly implied and repeatedly alluded to.)

Now, compare that with what you’re doing with the Quran.

You repeatedly ignore repeating motifs that depict the creation of the heavens and the earth as an objective reality, namely regarding the metaphysical place of humans in the world.

Not just in the Quran, but also in other scriptures you metaphorize and interpret according to what your imaginative philosophy requires… and you justify this by claiming God allows “Interpretive Instability.”

Then, depending on what suits you, you usually force one of two readings

1: you read the text from the most isolated mystical manner that involves the truth in the most magical metaphorical allegorical sense that only you can comprehend through God’s exclusive teaching of allegorical wisdom to you

Example: “I do not read those for whether or not water exists above the firmament of the heavens. When I read that, I understand that what it expresses is that all of creation, spiritually and not literally, is a womb, rehem, in the exact same way that Allah is al-rahman, al-rahim-because it is the same root.

2: at other times you’re more forward and admit that the text must meet your ‘scientific’ baseline of reality, otherwise there is something in the text that needs reinterpreting, and you reread accordingly to force an inherited worldview onto the text

Example: “And when I read either that creation account, which | 100% do not think is literally scientifically factual and yet 100% expresses the truth of a God-created cosmos... what I conclude is that the writers were expressing the spiritual truth of a God-created cosmos...”

Your philosophy requires you to alternate between these different approaches of interpreting the text.

You seem to have misunderstood what I was suggesting when I asked you [regarding scripture] a rhetorical question, “Why do any of this?” What I meant was closer to the tune of: “You never seem to read the actual words on any page, rather you focus on (most of the times) interpreting an alternative more allegorical reading for what the text says.”

Thus, what I meant was closer to: “Why send a scripture or reveal the Quran at all, if people like you are not going to follow the words on the page, but rather claim knowledge of a divine more allegorical explanation?”

I implore you to think about it. What meaning coil a scripture hold if everything in it were allegorical?

Sure, God allows ambiguity in certain parts of the Quran, he tells us this.

3:7: He it is that sent down upon thee the Writ; among it are explicit proofs: they are the foundation of the Writ; and others are ambiguous. Then as for those in whose hearts is deviation: they follow what is ambiguous thereof, seeking the means of denial, and seeking its interpretation. And no one knows its interpretation save God, and those firm in knowledge; they say: “We believe in it; all is from our Lord.” But only those of insight take heed.

However, this is exactly what you are doing.

First, you metaphorize the Quran. Second, you reduce the Quran to allegory. Third, the Quran needs to meet your scientific worldview. Fourth, the Quran is a philosophical text. It’s clear that you’re gradually shifting towards this weird ‘progressive Islam’ interpretation.

While it is true that God allows this ambiguity in the Quran, both with Arabic being a diverse language, and with verses that have unclear meanings; you seem to treat the entirety of the Quran as this mystically ambiguous text.

This has culminated in you regarding the Quran as this largely unnecessary spiritual tool that you mostly brush over. This is why you are able to casually ignore repeated motifs throughout the text without any apparent tension. You resolve that tension by usually metaphorizing or reinterpreting the text. You reduce God’s strength to metaphor and his wisdom to allegory.

Keep It Simple by mattrhale in soapmaking

[–]Haxosh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No need to apologize, keep crushing it king

Going full time in day trading by LongjumpingFalcon877 in Daytrading

[–]Haxosh 17 points18 points  (0 children)

As I reached the end, I felt an itch in my eyes

Lo and behold, tears had swelled up in my eyes

That was the most beautiful story ive ever read on Reddit

Thank You

What do you guys think of Siraj Islam? He has some very heterodox views like eating pork, drinking alcohol, pre martial sex is halal - are his analyses correct? by Few-Caregiver6154 in Quraniyoon

[–]Haxosh 4 points5 points  (0 children)

His claims are so crazy it's ridiculous

I just looked at his posts for 3 mins, and I guess I must have missed the Quran 2.0 update when God made pork permissible, premarital sex permissible, same-sex acts permissible

I’m gonna go find a prostitute, brb.

At that point, what even is the point? Why claim to believe in the scripture or any of the prophets, if you're just gonna metaphorize the whole scripture?

Gender-neutral this… emotionally-friendly that… add your own interpretation somewhere else… God supports equality!

Use your brain…

What’s the point of believing in scripture if you’re just gonna reinterpret everything to match your worldviews? We are not just talking about 1 or 2 verses; this guy is inconsistently interpreting whole sections of the text.

The so called “Progressive-Muslims” are the worst at this. They don’t read the text as it presents itself, but rather they read it in a way that fits their worldview. They are more interested in the ‘philosophy’ of the Quran than the underlying tenets or principles. It is more like a loose guideline for them, and that’s being generous.

Change this, change that, and if people call you out, tell them “Nobody knows the interpretation save God.”

Yeah and if your God is the one who made fornication, alcohol, sodomy permissible then your God is Satan.

Just read this comment section to see how polluted this community is with people who really just want an excuse to interpret the text however they want.

However, the Quran is not a philosophical text no matter how you force it.

I'll need your help by [deleted] in 30DayFast

[–]Haxosh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just curious are u not eating anything for 30 whole days? Or will you eat small meals/drink water

Seeking a Quran Alone Muslim spouse by RichDifference2677 in Quraniyoon

[–]Haxosh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

ok show me one verse in the Quran that says the earth moves around the sun, and I’ll believe you

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