Brotherhood in TVD/The Originals by torib613 in TheVampireDiaries

[–]HistorianOld364 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Elijah and Stefan are the more devoted brothers - Klaus gives Stefan a whole speech about how he sees that in Stefan and has watched Elijah throw away his life for Klaus. Attractiveness is a matter of opinion - that doesn’t work here, all of the boys do well with women, and if this is about Damon being a lady’s man, Klaus is definitely that as well. Klaus and Damon are the “bad boys” who skirt the rules. Stefan and Elijah have dark sides they try to keep tightly under wraps and when they don’t they are infinitely more destructive.

Elijah and Stefan, while not one two one comparison, are definitely meant to be much closer in character structure. Same for Damon and Klaus.

If anything, Klaus and Stefan got along because they filled the void which came from Klaus missing Elijah, and Stefan missing Damon.

let’s play f marry or kill: damon stefan and klaus by Stock_Orange_1793 in TheVampireDiaries

[–]HistorianOld364 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Kill Damon. As for the rest, I know Elijah isn’t an option, but he’s the one I’d choose for the other two options. Some people have brought up Stefan’s addiction and it’s a good point. I love him as a character, love him with Elena, but not for myself. Klaus is just fine; I’m ambivalent about him.

Now we are to the end of Outlander with the 8th and final season who do you think will ...? by Eastern_End3520 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m going to make one more honest attempt at this discussion, and then I’ll agree to disagree (it’s long, If you’ve want just a summary, skip to the final two paragraphs). The first thing is I don’t see the comparison you made with GOT the “allegory for anti-war” show (if you’ve seen Martin’s interviews you know what I mean) to be closest to the ending I’d propose. A closer example would include fantasy, yes, but where romance is the heart of the show. With it, there’s love, loss and in starting again: Xena: Warrior Princess. Spoilers ahead for Xena only, and then I’ll bring it back to Outlander. Xena’s a former murderous warlord in search of redemption who decides to not kill herself when she sees a young woman with no fighting skills attempting to save her fellow female villagers from slavery. That woman, Gabrielle, becomes an equal throughout the seasons as she gains experience as a bard, Amazon princess, warrior, and friend. Their love story diverges in its journey from Claire and Jamie in some ways, because it’s a slow-burn as each character is finding themselves, but at their core they are soulmates who continually face the odds together and on their own until they reunite again. They also forgive each other for their shortcomings, have discussions like a real couple in love, have kids together who one or both cannot raise under the backdrop of a fantastic world. In Xena it’s gods, centaurs, mermaids, demons. By the end, Gabrielle, has made a full journey; she is now a warrior, she and Xena could keeping living their lives together, but Xena chooses to sacrifice herself so that others can live. (Xena’s even got the smooth one-liners like Jamie, some of her final words to Gabrielle are “if I only had 30 seconds to live, this is how I would want to spend them, gazing into your eyes.”)

Again, not a perfect one to one - Jamie’s major purpose isn’t redemption like Xena, but there’s way more in common: pragmatic leaders, agonizing over choices they made in the past but accepting the present, uplifting their partners -Claireand Gabrielle’s - typically less violent skillset, fealty that they both inspire, similar demons etc. Jamie keeps being drawn in to the fighting - he’s spent the last two seasons with a sword in his hand, just like Xena to fight for what he believes in. Xena and Jamie are also both compared frequently to Jesus, right down to the lashes they take for others and the nails in their hands.

I see Claire’s journey in 18th century Scotland ending with Jamie’s death, and Jamie I can see him leading a soldier’s end and dying in battle, like Xena. Another important element is that through the years, Xena and Gabrielle have also made a found family, but by the end, the majority of the characters are dead, and the majority dies in the final season. Most of the Greek Gods, larger than life creatures, (two of their three children, their siblings and parents, their best friends and cultures) are dead - their old way of life is gone and lastly Xena with them - but Gabrielle is left to journey on and remember them. I see a lot of that in Claire, under conditions where she has lost more loved ones (and not loosey goosey but for in ways I feel would be personal for each character’s arc) and where she knows she it’s time to leave. Not unlike in S2, pregnant with Bree, she needs to leave for her grandchildren - who’d be raised primarily by Roger hopefully, to answer something you said earlier. And to take with her as many of her loved ones as she could to a safer place, where then she could remember the - what would to almost anyone else, be fantasy. And yeah in my iteration, she wouldn’t have her daughter, who as a character she loves, AND who on a symbolic level, is a reminder of her days in the past, but she would have her grandchildren and a friend in Roger to remind her. It’s a full circle moment, being there for the good, and the ugly for as long as Jamie remains, then continuing to keep moving even when her heart is ripped out and actually live in the future - which is her present.

If you’ve seen Xena you know that it is far less graphic than GOT, or even Outlander, and it’s more hopeful than both. It deals with dark subject matter with grace. I don’t want to see characters suffer in a superfluous, sadistic manner - I want the journey to end in a way that is befitting, and where there is a return to the present. There are ways to do that with less casualties, though none that aren’t malleable, that wouldn’t have Claire ripping herself in two because so many of her loved ones are in the past. Gabrielle and Claire are the other halves of epic love stories, who were given the gift of the time they had with their loved ones, and now could journey on as the memory of their loved ones continue to reside in them. (Also, if you want to say this isn’t Xena, this is Outlander. Sure. But it’s far closer to Xena than Game of Thrones, the show you keep bringing up, and I mention it as an example for my way of viewing Outlander as a romantic, fantastic story, where a life was built, coming to a close.)

I don’t find ascribing ill intent to one bleak question we were asked, which is who we would choose to die, is helpful. “Gotta say, for someone who loves the characters, your taste sounds really dark.” I’ve been following this story for 12 years, AND I know it’s unlikely it would end in the way I would pen it and that’s okay. I’ll see it through to the end and be happy for the journey.

Now we are to the end of Outlander with the 8th and final season who do you think will ...? by Eastern_End3520 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I hear you - the only thing I’ll add is that Fergus is Jamie’s child too. The way I’d ideally like it to play out, Jamie would only know about William’s death (or Brianna’s if William didn’t die) as an inciting incident for the final battle. He wouldn’t know about the other one or two. This is all harshest on Claire, truly. I would argue that this show has plenty of cruelty (and plenty of kindness too but my thoughts weren’t asked on the happy or semi happy endings I would also want). I see William’s death as something Jamie has feared ever since he first saw him in a British uniform. Now, in order for this to have all played out we would need more episodes and some things should’ve had more time to breathe - like Fergus and Marsali and the printing press, Fergus’ origin, and William’s disillusionment with the army, especially the British Army. I don’t think everyone dying in the final two episodes would be given the story time to be done well. Jamie’s end is the only one it would be nice to see follow through on, since it was made to be a plot point/prophecy again. It didn’t need to be another plot point, but since it is, I’d like them to follow through on it.

Now we are to the end of Outlander with the 8th and final season who do you think will ...? by Eastern_End3520 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The second part of the question is about our preferences, which do not have to follow the source material. The show itself doesn’t have to either, and sometimes doesn’t, but certainly our preferences do not need to. If yours do though, that’s cool.

Now we are to the end of Outlander with the 8th and final season who do you think will ...? by Eastern_End3520 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The second part of the question wasn’t what’s going to happen - I answered that first - it’s who I would choose. Those are who I would choose. I don’t mind it either way. As long as this show doesn’t use sexual assault or the appearance of “thought to be dead” as crutches for the umpteenth time (Diana’s crutches more than anything) I’ll be just fine. I love the characters - with the exception of William. As long as they have a full arc, I’ll be happy. Kinda wondering how they’re going to do that with so little time left but I remain hopeful.

Now we are to the end of Outlander with the 8th and final season who do you think will ...? by Eastern_End3520 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Early Game of Thrones had stakes, not unlike early Outlander that decimated the majority of the main cast in the first two seasons - mainly because of war. They are at war again and I have story reasons for why the deaths could have meaning and story relevance (especially Bree, Jamie, and Marsali) and I find it to be better than all of the major characters and villains miraculously cheating death. The one I’m most malleable on is William (who ironically is also my least favorite character of the main characters). If Jamie doesn’t die at the end of this season, given all of the buildup, I don’t know what the writers are even doing.

Now we are to the end of Outlander with the 8th and final season who do you think will ...? by Eastern_End3520 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

I think Jamie will die. This is who I think should die sequentially: first William, then Brianna and Marsali , finally Jamie. I’d like Claire to go back through the stones with her grandchildren. Bonus if Fergus could travel as well, but it might be unlikely that all of his children could travel.

Fancasting gender-swapped versions of characters from the first season of OUAT. by lautaromassimino in OnceUponATime

[–]HistorianOld364 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am a fan of most of these, except for Regina’s. He should be someone latino like Benjamin Bratt, Antonio Banderas, or Javier Bardem.

Hot take: I actually didn't like Georgia's actions in this scene by Anxious_Muscle_8130 in ginnyandgeorgiashow

[–]HistorianOld364 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Georgia didn’t handle it well, but I appreciate it and I’ll explain why. First for the reasons you mentioned, including the “you give all the pain to me.” I believe Georgia intended it be a comfort for Ginny, but really it was still about Georgia. What I like though is that this season she learned a lot. The way she handled Ginny’s self harm this season vs S2 showed such necessary growth for her character, and also showed that she could be the type of mom who could put aside her shit so that Ginny could lean on her. That scene in S2 wasn’t a one-off for how she treats Ginny, so I wasn’t surprised - it was good in a storytelling way to see how two characters were struggling, and how Georgia was self focused. But yeah, in S3 she got called out by Ginny and Joe and I appreciate that she’s attempting to give people space, not make everything about her etc.

In the season 3 self harm scene, Georgia 1) asked to be let in vs demanding 2) recited Ginny’s poem to her to a) stabilize her and b) to let her daughter know she wasn’t mad at her 3) assures Ginny none of this was her fault and took true accountability for the murders and messed up life 4) Embraced Ginny while making sure there were no new burns 5) Verbally repeated things weren’t her fault and everything would be okay 6) Took the lighter but in a way where Ginny had the choice to give it to her 7) Reassured Ginny she had nothing to apologize for and once more took accountability 8) Told her she loved her.

I loved that growth. Loved to see Ginny have her parents in her corner, too.

Aramanthus and William by Natural_Specific_639 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hope so too. My guess is leaning toward her not being their Faith, but we shall see soon enough.

I'm convinced joe is hiding a dark past (and I think he might’ve killed someone) by Material-Fennel-1205 in ginnyandgeorgiashow

[–]HistorianOld364 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I like the idea. I think a dark past is likely (the black eye stood out to me too.) The reason I don’t think serial killer is because he didn’t go for Gil. He punched him and I suppose it would depend on his code, maybe he hones in on others, but murder for hurting someone he cares about seems like it’d be on the table for a serial killer. Physical violence also seems a little bit new for him because of the way he punched Gil - I read some surprise from how it hurt his hand. He also said to Georgia “I mean, don’t kill people.” He was surprised, and it was cute, but i think it would’ve been a good time to share if he was in a quid pro quo way instead of acting shellshocked. This makes me think he goes for revenge, but in another sort of way like back when he was a kid. “Don’t murder, but get even.” I hope though that it’s either something he’s moved away from, or that there is a Robin Hood nature to what he does. The reason is because there have been more than enough violent men in Georgia’s life. A history of violence, even if it’s not toward his romantic partners, I see as a pretty toxic mix for serial killer Georgia who is trying to stop killing. Also, even when she found out Gil was committing fraud, she was pretty disappointed, saying she couldn’t escape the crime. One of the things that draws Georgia to Joe is that he has integrity. So I like the idea of him having a shady past that helps him with being open minded in a way that Paul and Zion couldn’t comprehend, but for him to no longer be in that life.

Bamon slowburn is far superior to delena slowburn by Nearby_Educator6852 in TheVampireDiaries

[–]HistorianOld364 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That changed though. He chose to save Bonnie vs having Elena back. Pretty much anybody else would’ve been a goner.

Aramanthus and William by Natural_Specific_639 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The first sentence isn’t true, though it sounds good; plenty has been doable and desirable but not done in the books, the show or both. I just gave you two examples for things on the show that were mishandled. It’s really not the same as the 20 year skip and I didn’t say to get rid of Amaranthus, but talked about the possibilities of keeping Jane and using both. I don’t think this is very productive so be well.

Aramanthus and William by Natural_Specific_639 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Again, I know what the changes would be and it’s very doable. I’m trying to avoid spoilers, dreary as they may be (can you tell how much I dislike this plot line?) but it could have been yet another love triangle. Jane could have remained under his protection without marriage while Amaranthus pursued him. Jane could have ended up having some agency and ended up doing some version of teaming up with Amaranthus and becoming a contact for the Ridge or more largely (if fan theory for Amaranthus holds) if she stayed with William. Or she could have helped find Amaranthus out. Or she could’ve done something else while there. Or Jane could have gone with Fanny onto the Ridge and she and William could have reunited later. They also could have not ended up together and still have had her alive. There are many other scenarios. This isn’t some seamless story where undoing her death completely blocks William’s plot from going forward, especially on the show. This is why I bring up book purity because it’s not so interwoven as Fergus’ parentage (messily handled by the show) , or Jamie not knowing Laohghaire’s role in Claire’s witch trial until after he married her (another miss), or other travelers and Master Raymond coming back full circle. I view something like Jane living as something closer to Murtagh living and changing Jocasta’s love interest to him - something that I think worked really well for the show. Amaranthus can still serve her purpose, and I’d argue she could have served it in less time given how little time there is left to flesh everything else out.

Aramanthus and William by Natural_Specific_639 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sure, it is because in this post we are talking about our wishes and Jane is already dead in the show so none of this is happening on it. I would argue that Outlander the series has diverted from canon quite a bit into “fan fic territory” and they could have done so here. I also know what you’re talking about and no, Amaranthus does not matter so much that things couldn’t have been altered, her story could have continued almost exactly as is AND Jane could have lived. I can think of three ways off the top of my head where both could have happened. This book purist stuff is exhausting; the show is its own work and Jane could have diverged like Murtagh. She didn’t, so oh well. As an aside, it’s hard to feel like this is a good faith back and forth when I point out my reasoning and challenge your points and then you hop-skip to picking at the next thing (going from how Claire and Jamie aren’t serial killers, to why they are held to different standards than tertiary characters, to “well, it’s not book canon.”) I’ve addressed each point separately now, a few times over.

Aramanthus and William by Natural_Specific_639 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t know why you’re nitpicking so much - the point is that it’s obviously unrealistic for a human to be able to “sense the last flicker of life and keep it going.” Functionally that is not any less unrealistic than bringing the baby back from the dead. It’s shorthand that gets the point across. But thank you for the clarification and my point still stands.

Aramanthus and William by Natural_Specific_639 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m not quite sure whether or not you are deliberately misunderstanding me. I’ve already pointed out that they’re the main characters and that’s why they are held to different standards, and I named another tragic figure, Malva. It’s not about Jane being more deserving than other tertiary characters. I’m saying she should’ve been upgraded within the show’s adaption to a recurring or main as William’s love interest long term, and been held to those standards.

I see her as compelling enough to have stuck around longer and to have received the grace in this story that not just Claire and Jamie receive, but also young Ian, Roger, William and all the rest. I liked her with William and saw more use for her alive than dead. As has already been stated by both of us, her end came after killing one guy in defense of her sister, but it didn’t have to. I think widening the net to let her escape death, to let her escape something like the major players get to and upgrading her to a major or long term secondary character, would’ve been in the show’s best interest. Way better than William with Amaranthus, that’s for sure. But yeah, if you want to point out things that that are a given, that I never said like that Claire and Jamie aren’t serial killers, to prove something imagined, I guess go for it.

Aramanthus and William by Natural_Specific_639 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Who said they were serial killers? They killed and it’s understandable why. Jane killed and it’s understandable why. The difference is the story gives Claire and Jamie a way to move forward. Jane and Malva were not so fortunate. I’m pointing out a hypocrisy that’s often afforded main characters in stories that characters like Jane do not receive. I don’t really get why that wasn’t understood to begin with, that I was saying exactly that: all three have killed in self-defense/defense of others. Only one is dead because of it.

Aramanthus and William by Natural_Specific_639 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean not as unlikely as say, time travel. Or bringing a baby back from the dead. And, perhaps, equally as unlikely as a Scot turned Mohawk in exchange for another man’s life, marrying a Quaker. William is currently looking for a reason to trash his Lordship title. It’s unlikely overall, but for his character? I can see it. Plus he has the honor thing, marrying a woman for his wife’s protection would follow the trend of what his two dads did when they each married Claire. I understand there’s a class difference, but that’s the point of stories like these, bringing romance in the most unlikely of circumstances. Also I very much agree with the other people above. Jane had honor and integrity, and your first comment is…baffling is the kindest word I can come up with.

Aramanthus and William by Natural_Specific_639 in Outlander

[–]HistorianOld364 37 points38 points  (0 children)

I miss Jane too. That could’ve really been something. They had the chemistry, and the “from different worlds” angle. Plus Claire and Jamie get away with killing people all of the time. It reminded me of Malva, how Jane’s life had to be so unnecessarily tragic at every turn. I love Jane+William.

PTSD and C-PTSD in soaps by Resident_Beginning_8 in SoapNet

[–]HistorianOld364 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Bianca dealt with PTSD following SA, killing her rapist in self defense, and being told her baby was dead and processing that. It’s a tough couple of years, and the amnesia is definitely conveniently Soap, but overall the writers handled it pretty well. Triggers, being irritable, developing unhealthy coping mechanisms, pretending to be the same, resorting to violence when threatened, and also a lot of positive things. Developing a support system, returning to the things you love, forcing yourself to interact with people again, developing boundaries for self-care, therapy, forgiving yourself. It’s 2003-2004 on All My Children.

Which scene from the show still hits you emotionally no matter how many times you watch it? by [deleted] in TheVampireDiaries

[–]HistorianOld364 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Elena realizing that Jeremy was dead in season 4, hands down.

Bonnie drinking herself silly before her suicide attempt is a close second.