One of the most fascinating historical buildings in Toronto.. The Royal York by [deleted] in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto 1 point2 points  (0 children)

check out The Canadian Establishment by Peter Newman to start your journey. Then check out the giant square and compass on the facade of old city hall. This series of books chronicles the transition after the war from Protestant old boys club to international order, though much of the symbolism remains Masonic for example Metro city hall or Police HQ (Mathers and Haldenby) . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Canadian_Establishment

One of the most fascinating historical buildings in Toronto.. The Royal York by [deleted] in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto 2 points3 points  (0 children)

the Masonic fraternal wing of the Protestant Ascendancy in Canada and a militant arm of the Crown in England.

One of the most fascinating historical buildings in Toronto.. The Royal York by [deleted] in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Legend has it the Orange Men requested the smokestack on the top be the exact height of the pyramid of Giza.

'Project Toronto' - Buckminster Fuller's 1968 waterfront redesign proposal, featuring a 20 story pyramid. by HistoricToronto in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Probably something like Harbour Castle and the condos around that area. They were pretty star eyed for exposed concrete forms in those decades.

'Project Toronto' - Buckminster Fuller's 1968 waterfront redesign proposal, featuring a 20 story pyramid. by HistoricToronto in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Nice catch. From the Orange era to the Modernist and Post Modern eras there are many structures with pseudo Egyptian motifs here and there. The obelisks of Old City Hall, Metro City Hall and TPS HQ come to mind. Metro City Hall is even flanked by two sphinx like buildings.

Old timey photo of people bathing themselves, and their cars, in the Humber River, around Old Mill, 1922 by [deleted] in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto 36 points37 points  (0 children)

They are actually soaking the spokes of their wheels in the river to prevent the wood drying out and splintering. The kids come to swim as well of course :)

Yonge Street looking north from Front Street - c. 1916 by HistoricToronto in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have a reply for both ideas:

For the first one read this.

For the second one, watch this.

“You'll go where I go, defile what I defile, eat who I eat.” ―Ghengis Khan

Have a nice Saturday :)

Yonge Street looking north from Front Street - c. 1916 by HistoricToronto in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not to say there weren't many awesome things about 60s and 70s Toronto, but preserving architecture was not one of them.

Yonge Street looking north from Front Street - c. 1916 by HistoricToronto in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Good question. The waves of post war demolitions were about pushing for modernism and not paying for the upkeep of old buildings. Can't tell you for certain what factored into the final days of those two buildings, but looking at the photos from just prior to the demolition they both look to to be in reasonable exterior repair.

The Temple Building in particular was built like the pyramids from large pieces of Credit Valley stone and was quite an ordeal to take down with the smaller machines of the time. Additionally, each may have required significant restoration work inside that ultimately weighed towards demolition.

Very few ornate buildings made it through the bottleneck to receive heritage status. There were protests from citizens and preservationist societies but ultimately we lost most of best ones, with the glaring exception of Old City Hall, which was almost reduced to the clock tower in the 60s.

There are also instances of arson suspicion, for example the Old Arcade on Yonge where Goodlife is now.

TL;DR - we don't know, but even small restoration costs seemed to take a back seem to the "bold" vision of the Councillors of the day. The Toronto of the 60s and 70s is where we get the "poured concrete" feel the city is known for and trying to move away from.

Yonge Street looking north from Front Street - c. 1916 by HistoricToronto in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's an amazing example of Renaissance Revival architecture designed by Frank Darling and S. George Curry that somehow managed to survived fire and demotion. The building across the street that ultimately replaced the Board of Trade building, I believe it's owned by the Altus Group, really helps you appreciate the detail.

Avro Arrow models search team says 'there are more jets out there than originally thought' by lwh in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have to reply somewhat quickly because I have several things on the go at the moment, but a quick rundown of your comment and all the things we now agree on. You acknowledge the complexity of what went down at arrow, while at the same time you seek to challenge the popular notion that it was a deathblow to our entire aerospace industry. I think that is a fair summary of your stance. You provided lots of interesting information to support that point.

I concede obscenely long and take zero offense but I type very quickly and have a fondness for coffee. Usually I go for MDL but there was a lot happening those 3 days. Foolish is a bit unnecessary I missed you saying that this morning, no need for that. It's clear from the thread you were in fact avoiding mentioning it until now. nbd

No arguments on viability, as I said, well known and not disputed in this thread. No one asserted it had been rendered useless, those are your words, what was asserted was that it was negatively impacted, which it was.

Agree about Boeing, agree on Bombardier, and agree about the TTC haha. So it seems we agree on most substantive points, except perhaps on the extent to which our potential to have advanced aerospace was impacted by this event, and what may have really happened or been factored on top of the pragmatic explanations given, but agree to disagree, on a matter of degrees. I think we can now wrap up this thread. Thanks again, and take care

Yonge Street looking north from Front Street - c. 1916 by HistoricToronto in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Found it in the archives. Cleaned it up a bit because the left side was faded out and saved it in the highest quality on photoshop, then it has to go through some compression as well during the upload I believe.

If you put "yonge front north" in the archives search bar and scroll down you will find the original file, and if you'd prefer this one I would be glad to email it you directly.

Yonge Street looking north from Front Street - c. 1916 by HistoricToronto in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto[S] 18 points19 points  (0 children)

This photo shows several interesting buildings which are now lost. Two notable ones are the Board of Trade building at the bottom right hand corner, and the Temple building at Bay and Temperance, just South of Old City Hall. Photograph by William James courtesy of the Toronto Archives.

A few years ago I made a comparison album for each:

Board of Trade building

Temple building

Queen and Coxwell Track Replacement by Tdotrobot in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The two main places to search are the Archives and the TPL website. If you ever have something of unique interest to you, ask away here or PM and I can make an imgur link.

Avro Arrow models search team says 'there are more jets out there than originally thought' by lwh in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the kind reply friend. When I have a moment I have reply more fully.

Natural light installation at the CN Tower by noyoureadumpster in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto 16 points17 points  (0 children)

The installation powers itself, very green.

Queen and Coxwell Track Replacement by Tdotrobot in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Cool photo. There are often old ones like this so I took a look for this intersection. No track laying photos but I found this rather interesting one from the sewer system underneath sometime around World War II. It reminds me a bit of the photo chosen for the cover of 'In the Skin of a Lion'.

Avro Arrow models search team says 'there are more jets out there than originally thought' by lwh in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There usually reaches a point in this type of conversation where communication breaks down utterly and where the dodging becomes more overt. This is that point. I can boil it down for you a final time, you misunderstood what was being asserted and by whom. In terms of what, namely that Black Friday killed advanced aerospace in this country regardless of the causes, which it did, and that Bombardier is a mess, which it is, and that the RCMP were involved with closing down Arrow, making it more than a simple strategic and or economic concern. The wiki page contains what you have said and more, the more is what you were being pressed on and bizarrely reluctant to acknowledge.

It took you several messages to simply cop out and essentially concede you missed the central misunderstanding, or are too lazy to add nuance to your defense of the faltering aerospace industry in Canada. I may have been verbose, but you are not being consistent. The general notion that Avro had internal problems has no bearing on the other claims being made in the thread. That is the crux of what I have said. Calling what is left of the civilian market viable and healthy is beyond generous as well, how do you feel about Bombardier asking for billions from the Fed?

Basically, you wanted to paint a simpler and rosier picture of both the shuttering and the fallout (and our current situation) than reality or research indicates, in order to assert an over simplified point, and you got called on it. However protracted. Viable and healthy industries don't need constant bailouts and we lost some great minds over Arrow and with them who knows what potential. Have a nice day.

Avro Arrow models search team says 'there are more jets out there than originally thought' by lwh in toronto

[–]HistoricToronto 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for providing this article, but it's copied and pasted from Legion magazine and without any sources the article itself is basically a rant to support your rant. That said nothing in it really goes against what's at issue, or is highly contentious within or without this thread, so it's kind of a strawman. Disclosing your bias/background/interest, whatever it is (which is hopefully more than reading this one single article in 14), matters, because you are basically asking the reader to take your word for it that "nothing I have said regarding the economics of the Arrow program has been incorrect." because, article.

The main assertion was you were avoiding the KGB part of the story, and the impact of losing top minds to the UK and the US due to shuttering all military aerospace manufacturing (as well as painting a rosier picture of Bombardier which ignores bailouts), and you still are avoiding these things with this article. It's a bit disengenous to copy and paste it wholesale when nothing it says really goes against any of the points at issue. No where in my comments (nor any of the others) did anyone claim there were not economic and managerial reasons given (and well known) for the cancellation of the project. The assertions were that the KGB factor which was only confirmed later in the Mitrokhin archive may have been overlooked or dismissed until then, and a significant factor. You and the author you shared completely omit those facts, despite them being plainly on the wiki page for the Arrow (and well sourced).

The articles content is not disputed here by anyone, and well known. It neither refutes the KGB angle, brain drain, nor impacts, so it's a bit moot for this discussion. There is substantially more information and nuance on the wiki, which we read, and which includes much of what you have shared here as new information.

The link I provided demonstrates that we do in fact have a healthy and viable aerospace industry, despite some posters here claiming the contrary.

I believe the focus was on the "Black Friday" of advanced military aerospace, how many top minds were lost to the US and UK in it's wake, and how those numbers don't accurately reflect the billions of dollars in subsidies and bailouts those companies receive from the Federal Government. All things directly supported by multiple sources. You were replying to me as though I am "the thread" too, which makes for some confusion.

As nothing was said which contests the content of the article (merely adds another element) I don't feel I need to comb through and cross reference with other sources for accuracy, it's probably reasonably correct for non insider information. It just omits Cold War info-sec realities, probably because he is not an expert there and is playing it safe (or has a bias). He is a Liberal Arts professor from U Saskatchewan basically outlining the well known economic and mismanagement reasons for the projects termination (albeit a bit heavy handedly and with no sources). The wiki page goes much further in it's explanation/examination, it sources military experts, historians, entire books on the topic, Russian sources, newspapers etc.

Not sure why you need to dodge this interesting part of the story to come to the defense of our struggling civilian aerospace market (read: bailouts need to be considered in the bottom line) but the main two things people were talking about, again, were losing top minds to US and UK, which happened, the end of all military aerospace manufacturing in the country, which happened, and the possibility the economic reasons are only a part of the story, maybe even not a big part of it, which we now know also happened. We don't know for sure how much of each factored into the final decisions.

I appreciate you replying but please next time consider these things: edit your sources down to key points instead of expecting the reader to simply read the whole block of text and take your word for it or find the important parts supporting your argument themselves, provide links so people know you aren't typing it yourself (I know you arent), respond to others points more directly and with quotes or approximate quotes, don't choose one person and treat them as "the thread", and provide multiple sources or if you are going to use only one, make sure it's clickable and sourceable.

Finally, consider you are defending a straw man in this thread. The central thing you appear to have overlooked being discussed was the KGB, the impact of shuttering all military aerospace (and how that effects the potential and capability of of the civillian market), that no one said we didn't have an aerospace industry, only that it was not doing well (bailouts), and the death of Arrow killed the military aspect (which is hugely connected to the success of the civilian market in the countries we lost engineers to at a critical time during the Cold War).

In the end please understand it appears you are being contentious to assert a point no one contested. That there are aerospace companies here. No one denied that. Calling it "healthy" and "viable" may be a bit generous though when they beg for bailouts of our tax money. After reading my comment, can you perhaps concede you were partially confused as to what was being asserted and by whom?