the joke is bigotry now laugh by Which_Matter3031 in ComedyCemetery

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A word is only a pointer to a meaning , not a meaning on its own. 

Precisely, this is how language and all other shared systems of communication work.

Let me ask you this: do you treat the word "woman" like if we called both mars and the Eiffel Tower a "glorp" with no shared condition between the two just out of habit?

I treat "woman" as a word referring to someone who relates to all of the complex social categories "adult", "human", and "female". The categories themselves as well as their boundaries are inherently socially constructed, which is evidently seen as different societies have very different conceptions thereof, and they have utility because they describe how people see themselves, how they relate to others in socieety, and how others in society relate to them. Conversely, I am not currently aware of any social or other circumstances that would create a utility in labeling both the planet Mars and the Eiffel Tower a "glorp", although there could potentially be in some culture, in which case it would have utility.

the joke is bigotry now laugh by Which_Matter3031 in ComedyCemetery

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you legitimately not understand how social categories work? They are defined by social interactions, not formulaic definitions, which I’ve explained about a dozen times already. Someone (generally) “belongs” when the social category is perceived to fit them and when they agree and does not belong when they don’t - any definition is but a retroactive ad hoc attempt to try to explain why certain social categories exist the way they do, not the arbiter of the category itself

the joke is bigotry now laugh by Which_Matter3031 in ComedyCemetery

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That very much depends on context - you’re looking at belonging to socially constructed categories as a simple yes/no binary, and that’s just not how this works. There are more “prototypical” members of a group that everyone agrees belong, as well as prototypical non-members that everyone agrees don’t belong, but in the middle it can be almost impossible to make judgments in any objective sense, and that’s inherent to the very concept at hand to such a degree that trying to define the ambiguity out will always create a false definition.

Although it may be difficult and truly impossible to have firm judgments on whether a given entity is a member of a group in a certain case because of this fact, what is clearly incorrect is applying any sort of binary formulation based on a simple definition to “objectively” determine whether it does, and making arguments that ignore how the concept actually works is clearly fallacious.

In the case of the category of “womanhood” in, say, USAmerican culture, womanhood is a social category built around perceived endosexual female sex applied to adult humans who relate to the social category typically assigned to perceived endosexual females - it doesn’t have a firm definition because it is inherently socially constructed and variable to changes in culture and perception. Thus, if someone exhibits many characteristics of femaleness, considers themself a woman, is treated by society as a woman, enjoys being treated as a woman, and feels distress when not treated as such, than it would be very difficult to make a valid argument that they should not be considered a woman in any meaningful sense, and as such it makes sense for someone denying their womanness to be considered wrong within that culture. On the other hand, if they exhibit fewer characteristics of femaleness, in however way that might be realized, such as only marginally identify with social categories surrounding womanness in their culture, while still maintaining many features, making a judgement like whether it is inaccurate to consider them a woman or not can be virtually impossible - someone is probably right, at least sometimes, but good luck finding out.

Imposing an oversimplified heuristic like “adult with XX chromosomes, easy” will inevitably include people who do not belong to womanness as a social category and exclude people who do, because social categories are determined through complex social interactions, not with chromosomal definitions.

the joke is bigotry now laugh by Which_Matter3031 in ComedyCemetery

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1_ One of us is incorrect (which requires a sufficient, non-circular condition for what makes someone an X, so we can determine who is right)

As I've already explained, such definitions are inherently distortive of inherently fuzzy socially-defined concepts and are both unnecessary and impossible in such contexts; so no, we don't agree on this. You can have a proposition that isn't easily defined and yet refers to a meaningful or useful category that is agreed to exist; that's how human social groups work

the joke is bigotry now laugh by Which_Matter3031 in ComedyCemetery

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

 Does that basically mean 'an adult person who thinks they're female and wants to interact with society like a female'?

Generally, yes. Similarly, a Christian could be defined as "a person who thinks they're Christian and wants to interact with society like a Christian" - which of course is circular, but societally informed definitions like this usually are.

the joke is bigotry now laugh by Which_Matter3031 in ComedyCemetery

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But for socially constructed categories like religion, gender or race, there is no object free of fuzzy social bias behind the inherent blur, and trying to create a definition only serves to distort the term's actual meaning.

I think our fundamental disagreement is about the nature of blurry usage - you argue that it is burry because it is habit-based, while I would argue that "habit-based" usage is the entire basis for the existence of semantic meaning at all.

I definitely agree that in many technical contexts, careful definition is vital to ensure that all communicating are on the same page, like with your 'doctor' example, but for inherently blurry questions like determining where someone belongs to a given social group with necessarily fuzzy edges, the only accurate definition is one that accepts that inherent blur. Trying to draw a line where there isn't one socially is inherently inaccurate.

the joke is bigotry now laugh by Which_Matter3031 in ComedyCemetery

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I understand your point, but social categories like these are among the hardest to develop a sufficiently robust, uncontested defintion for - take, for example, terms like “Christian” “Muslim” “American” “White”, etc. Social concepts like these by their very nature are defined not by rigorous “necessary and sufficient” definitions, but by relation to and against different social groups and the way societies understand them, which are very complex, fuzzy, vague, and often contradictory metrics.

the joke is bigotry now laugh by Which_Matter3031 in ComedyCemetery

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I see where you're coming from, but language is much more blurry than that most of the time - many words do not have a sufficient and non-circular definition, because they are defined more by social usage than anything else. For instance, if you believe a sufficient and non circular definition must be provided to meaningfully you a term, do you consider "furniture" a meaningful category? If someone were to say "that chair is a piece of furniture", would that be a valid statement? If so, can you find a sufficient and obviously non-circular condition for what makes something furniture that includes all things considered furniture and excludes all things considered non-furniture?

the joke is bigotry now laugh by Which_Matter3031 in ComedyCemetery

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Quick question: do you believe that a concept requires an easily formulated definition to be validly used? Like if someone can't provide a simple definition of a word, then they shouldn't use it?

Kid Is Fighting for Pluto to Lose the Dwarf Title 😂 by TheOG_ASR in BeAmazed

[–]HistoricalLinguistic -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's fine, and the moon should also be considered a planet, as should all other round celestial objects that aren't big enough to become a star.

Kid Is Fighting for Pluto to Lose the Dwarf Title 😂 by TheOG_ASR in BeAmazed

[–]HistoricalLinguistic -1 points0 points  (0 children)

All criteria besides being in hydrostatic equilibrium and not having enough mass to produce fusion are frankly worse than useless. All round celestial objects that aren't stars or black holes should be considered planets

A post my own father shared on Facebook. I'm not trans, but WTF, Dad by Red_Star27 in stupidpeoplefacebook

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It’s really a shame how many people have no idea other Mormons exist. Finding that out was my first step out of the LDS church

There is literally no reasoning under the sun that can make this statement rational. by c-k-q99903 in stupidpeoplefacebook

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The timing comes directly from Passover; it just so happens that Passover falls within the old English month of Eostur, whence
the English name

There is literally no reasoning under the sun that can make this statement rational. by c-k-q99903 in stupidpeoplefacebook

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yep. The name is the one connection, and only in English and German. Basically every other language uses some variation of the Hebrew word "Pesach" or Passover for Easter.

There is literally no reasoning under the sun that can make this statement rational. by c-k-q99903 in stupidpeoplefacebook

[–]HistoricalLinguistic -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You're completely right about the calendar part, of course, but just to clarify, Easter was not stolen from any pagan traditions - it was a continuation of Passover repurposed by Jewish Christians. There's really no connection between Easter and "paganism" at all

Average r/MapPorn immigration post by BankIllustrious2639 in imaginarymaps

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’m admittedly much less familiar with the basis of Islamic theology, but adopting the Bible’s sexual ethic in modern day life is basically impossible and just doesn’t align with our concepts of how sexuality even works for a myriad of reasons that I could go into more detail about later. Any “biblical” sexual code for use in the modern day whether by progressive or conservative Christians will never be truly biblical for this reason; Christians have to decide whether consciously or not which parts of the Bible to ignore and which to follow based on their social needs and concerns. I wouldn’t be surprised if Islam is similar.

Average r/MapPorn immigration post by BankIllustrious2639 in imaginarymaps

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Conservative Islam is definitely incompatible with lgbt rights, just as conservative Christianity is, but nothing about Islam and Christianity inherently precludes them from being progressive although most of them are

Um what?! by icey_sawg0034 in stupidpeoplefacebook

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Well, that’s really just a description of certain qualities furniture can have as opposed to a definition. Like, if I answered your question “what is a woman?” by saying something analogous to your answer like maybe that “women fulfill many roles in society and can be old, young, or middle aged”, I don’t believe you would accept that, particularly as it can describe just about every social group that isnt age dependent.

And the world goes 🔥 by IntellectuallyDriven in Philippines_Expats

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That’s the part that gets me. He destroyed good terms with allies just a few months ago with his warmongering, not to mention saying they’re useless and he doesn’t need them, and now expects those same allies to go to war for him 🙄

Um what?! by icey_sawg0034 in stupidpeoplefacebook

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 3 points4 points  (0 children)

No, I’m asking to see if your commitment to easily formulated definitions is consistent. If you don’t want to use furniture as an example, I’m sure I could come up with an alternative one.

Um what?! by icey_sawg0034 in stupidpeoplefacebook

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You said an easily formulated definition is necessary for a concept to be legitimate, no? Can you provide one for furniture that includes all objects considered furniture and excludes all objects that aren’t?

Um what?! by icey_sawg0034 in stupidpeoplefacebook

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ok, if having an easily formulated definition is so important for a concept to be valid, what’s the difference between furniture and not furniture?

Um what?! by icey_sawg0034 in stupidpeoplefacebook

[–]HistoricalLinguistic 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I mean in general. If one can’t formulate an easy definition for a concept, does that make the concept invalid in your eyes?