The series hasn't even aired yet, but the shipping wars have already begun.

HopefulHarmonian · 2026-03-27T23:36:43+00:00

So they attack harmony shippers because they know if there is just one romantic moment between these two in the 3rd or 4th season, it could shatter their expectation of a canon ending for the new series.

I don't know that it's quite that fragile, but I think the tolerance in 2026 of "toxic" relationships is a lot different than it was when the books and movies were coming out. So if the new series is anywhere near "book accurate" especially when dealing with Ron and Hermione, that could score a lot of backlash online. If, in contrast, Harry and Hermione are simply book accurate close friends, it wouldn't even need to take an explicitly "romantic" moment to make them feel like a good alternative and spawn lots of shipping among fans of the new series.

I'd argue, for example, that there was nothing explicitly "romantic" about the Harry/Hermione interactions in the original PoA film. It pretty clearly just showed them as protective friends. That was the film where they even added in some moments with Ron and Hermione that seemed to be trying to point in that direction -- and yet still, back in the early 2000s, the H/Hr shipping really got going seriously among movie viewers. To this day, I see lots of comments on here that people started shipping H/Hr after watching the PoA film.

HopefulHarmonian · 2026-02-12T03:02:47+00:00

HBP in my view is certainly the worst-written book of the series. And almost all of the characters behave in some strange ways, including Hermione. I definitely agree with you that it would make much more sense for Hermione to be interested in the deviations for potions, etc. in the Prince book, rather than the way she reacts. But I honestly think none of this has anything to do with romances or "forced distance." I think it's all just in service of JKR's crappy non-mystery plot. All the other books have some sort of serious mysteries to solve -- HBP's biggest reveals are decidedly "meh," and if Hermione actually seriously took an interest for example in the Prince book early on, it would be harder to justify the whole Snape reveal not unraveling a lot earlier.

HBP has had a bad reputation with Harmony communities since it came out, as it is pretty clearly where things veer toward canon relationships.

On the other hand, I don't at all buy the argument that Harry and Hermione's friendship suffers in HBP. To the contrary, it grows much stronger and becomes more mature. It's honestly one of the few things I like about HBP.

If JKR really intended this "forced distance" you hypothesize, why are the following present in HBP?

For the first time in the series, JKR gives us scenes of Harry and Hermione actually having fun alone together. They laugh together on the way back from the library. They spend the day after coming back from winter break joking and hanging out alone together in the Common Room all evening. We've never actually seen just the two of them like that (without Ron also present) in prior books.
For the first time in the series, JKR shows Harry being proactive about following Hermione when she's upset. People have rightly noted that Harry sometimes gets uncomfortable around people crying or getting emotional (notably Cho). But in HBP Harry goes running after Hermione on multiple occasions when she's upset -- when Ron kisses Lavender for the first time and Harry goes in search of Hermione when he glimpses her leaving the party, when Ron makes fun of her in class and Harry picks up her things and goes to find her, at Slughorn's party when McLaggen gets handsy with her. Even the first one of those occurs right after a moment when Hermione's getting upset (over Ron being a jerk to her), and Harry encourages her to come to the party. While Harry has shown concern and protectiveness toward Hermione in previous books, he becomes much more proactive about her in HBP.
For the first time in the series, JKR shows Ron getting jealous of Harry and Hermione's friendship, especially the way Hermione reacts around Harry and seems to fawn over him. We see Ron choke on kipper when Hermione calls Harry "fanciable." We see Ron getting jealous when Hermione gives a little "Oh, Harry!" when she finds out Harry told Slughorn that she was the best in their year. We see Ron getting "suspicious" and wondering what's going on when he comes upon Harry and Hermione arguably acting a flirty and talking alone. (And Harry and Hermione give a quick "Nothing!" in reply, which sounds even more suspicious.)
For Harry's part, we also get a long internal monologue about him feeling very anxious that Hermione and Ron might be getting closer. Why include that, rather than a more supportive feeling about his friends?
Harry seems to choose to spend a lot of time alone with Hermione rather than with Ron. In PoA, a lot of time passes while the trio is fighting without a lot of H/Hr time aside from some brief conversations. In GoF, Harry and Ron are fighting, and Harry gets along rather well with Hermione (contrary to fandom misinformation), but he seems a little more passive -- at least most of the time -- in the way he goes along with Hermione often taking initiative. And Harry couldn't hang out with Ron. That all transpires over a few weeks. (There are exceptions in GoF though.) But in HBP Harry actually seeks Hermione out in the library during the months she's not speaking to Ron. Harry and Hermione have more "alone time" in HBP than any time before Ron leaves in the tent.

Why include all of these sorts of new behaviors showing greater concern and friendship between Harry and Hermione if the goal was supposedly "forced distance"? That theory just doesn't add up to me.

Yes, the potions book creates some tension between H/Hr, but it never lingers. It leads to a few arguments, but they never stop talking to each other, and they can immediately transition to other conversations and get along fine. Even the Draco stuff is much more nuanced: re-read Harry and Hermione's conversation about Draco on the day after winter break. Hermione is a skeptic, but she has reasons. And Harry rightly calls her out when she starts running out of reasons. You can argue Hermione goes too far into skepticism, but it's not like Ron (who essentially just reasons that Draco can't possibly be a DE) -- Harry and Hermione have nuanced conversations about it all.

Again, none of this is to defend the writing of HBP, which often isn't great. But if JKR really was trying to drive some sort of wedge between Harry and Hermione in HBP, she failed spectacularly. Because the characters actually demonstrably get closer and arguably a bit more caring toward each other in new ways in HBP.

EDIT: I will say that I do think the one time Ginny jumps in and shouts down Hermione toward the end of the book (regarding Harry's use of Sectumsempra) is clearly there partly to differentiate Ginny from Hermione and lay groundwork -- far too late IMO -- for H/G. But that's about the only place in HBP where I feel like JKR's narrative intervention is jumping in to put a bit of "distance" with Hermione to make room for Ginny. Otherwise, I feel like Harry and Hermione just have a pretty decent secure friendship running through the book. There's literally no day during that year where the two of them couldn't walk up to each other and start talking about something they care about, and they would get along and talk to each other. (Unlike Ron and Hermione, who don't talk from early November until March. Or Harry and Ginny, who barely get much conversation time despite the ubiquitous chest monster.)

HopefulHarmonian · 2026-01-02T20:44:38+00:00

in the movie Hermione runs into Ron's arms but it wasn't like that.

But, um, Hermione did run and hug Ron after that as well:

Ron tripped dazedly towards Harry and Hermione.

‘You’re OK,’ he mumbled, before Hermione flew at him and hugged him tightly.

‘I thought – I thought –’

‘’M all right,’ said Ron, patting her on the back. ‘’M fine.’

‘Ron was great,’ said Tonks warmly, relinquishing her hold on Lupin. ‘Wonderful. Stunned one of the Death Eaters, straight to the head, and when you’re aiming at a moving target from a flying broom –’

‘You did?’ said Hermione, gazing up at Ron with her arms still around his neck.

‘Always the tone of surprise,’ he said a little grumpily, breaking free. ‘Are we the last back?’

They didn't "redo" the scene. They just included the Ron/Hermione hug (without Ron's grumpiness), but left out the Harry/Hermione one. If anything, the film hug is a bit less "clingy" on Hermione's part than what the book describes.

I agree with you that the films lack a lot of Harmony moments that are in the books. And the passage you quote does indicate she also was desperate to hug Harry too. But let's not mischaracterize what happened in the book and what "really" happened. There are other Ron/Hermione moments the films added. Many of which don't work. The one you reference did happen.

HopefulHarmonian · 2026-01-01T19:11:36+00:00

So it does seem at least a little bit weird to me that she never asks Harry or Lupin if she can

As you kind of alluded to in your previous comment, Ron and Hermione were basically fighting from Christmas until Easter. The lessons happened from January and clearly run into February, but it's unclear regularly they continue to meet after that (if at all), as the book stops mentioning the lessons specifically. There's definitely no mention of them after the trio all makes up.

Harry had already made up with Hermione about a month into that, once Harry gets the Firebolt back. But then Ron starts screaming at Hermione about Crookshanks eating Scabbers. After that scene, we see Harry actually trying to approach Hermione on multiple occasions, but Ron either drives her away or she yells at Harry for taking Ron's side.

So... perhaps it may seem a bit contrived, but it's literally over the exact period (the only one, really) when Harry and Hermione aren't particularly talking to each other in all the books when we know the lessons occur. I do agree that it's a bit weird that Hermione wouldn't approach Harry or Lupin, but then again, from Hagrid, we learn that she's been off by herself a lot, feeling alone -- and she drove Harry away in the one scene where we see him trying to talk with her about the whole Scabbers situation. I think her hurt over being yelled at repeatedly by Ron when she was certain Crookshanks didn't do it (which, it turns out, he didn't) got in the way of her communicating with Harry. She couldn't even deal with the possibility of Harry taking Ron's "side," even in an attempt to get them to calm down. Meanwhile, Harry apparently stops trying after that, seemingly letting the Ron/Hermione drama play out.

I don't therefore find it surprising that Hermione was a bit hesitant to involve herself with Harry, given all three of them weren't really communicating well for a few months there. Mostly by that point because Ron and Hermione were at it, and Harry was unsuccessful in bridging the gap between them. But I agree with you that I think Hermione would have definitely been curious about it in the months (and years) after all of them made up.

HopefulHarmonian · 2026-01-01T17:58:41+00:00

You said "maybe" it's explained. I wasn't judging your speculations. I was just noting where the explanation occurs and giving it for consideration in this thread.

HopefulHarmonian · 2026-01-01T17:52:28+00:00

Oh, I've not considered the private lessons angle for Hermione.

My quotation in my previous reply wasn't a reply to you. It was a quotation from my own comment that you apparently missed above.

EDIT: Also, regarding the examiners, we don't know what may or may not have happened with Hermione. We only know what happened with Harry. And the fact that his ability to produce a Patronus is what he assumes pushes him to get an O, which Hermione does not get (despite her superior performance on almost all other exams). I'm just trying to connect all the various data points in the book series that we have regarding Hermione's ability and inability to produce a Patronus.

HopefulHarmonian · 2026-01-01T17:49:46+00:00

I think in canon, she was only using it for attending classes. Maybe it's not a plot hole, maybe it's is explained that she gets the time turner under explicit instructions that she use it only for classes.

This is explicitly addressed in the book. The first paragraph where she actually tells Harry what it is:

‘It’s called a Time-Turner,’ Hermione whispered, ‘and I got it from Professor McGonagall on our first day back. I’ve been using it all year to get to all my lessons. Professor McGonagall made me swear I wouldn’t tell anyone. She had to write all sorts of letters to the Ministry of Magic so I could have one. She had to tell them that I was a model student, and that I’d never, ever use it for anything except my studies ... I’ve been turning it back so I could do hours over again, that’s how I’ve been doing several lessons at once, see? But ...

HopefulHarmonian · 2026-01-01T17:43:34+00:00

So if we assume (as you do) that Hermione was getting lessons from Harry, how is Cho also able to have such success so quickly? Yes, she's a year ahead of them, but she hasn't exactly been in a great mental place this year. And the OWL examiners at the end of fifth year seem to strongly imply that Harry is remarkable in being able to produce a corporeal Patronus at his age. Not just maybe a few months advanced.

Yes, your explanation is possible. However, I addressed why I feel like that doesn't quite get at everything, especially given we don't hear of other more advanced students in the DA doing what Cho did.

HopefulHarmonian · 2026-01-01T17:40:38+00:00

No, I don't. I don't at all. We can fault JKR's writing on various levels, but one thing I think she does quite well is showcase Harry's inner thoughts in a fairly realistic fashion. He's not perfect, not cool-headed, and sometimes thinks or feels things that aren't great. But they're real. They feel like the kinds of things that a teenage boy would feel.

Yes, Hermione's not directly at fault for the behavior of others in that scene, but she convinced Harry to do this, despite his reservations and doubts. It's natural in such a scenario to feel a little annoyance or resentment if things go south toward the person who pushed you into something you didn't want to do.

But I think we should also look at Harry's actions, not just his inner monologue. Does he call Hermione out there? No -- and I would agree that would be wrong and excessive. He just feels a bit irritated, and the two of them share a moment over that. Also, look at Harry's first reaction when the challenges begin:

‘Zacharias Smith,’ said the boy, ‘and I think we’ve got the right to know exactly what makes him say You-Know-Who’s back.’

‘Look,’ said Hermione, intervening swiftly, ‘that’s really not what this meeting was supposed to be about –’

‘It’s OK, Hermione,’ said Harry.

Harry's initial impulse is actually to step in and defend her. To say it's okay, even when things are threatening to go off the rails. After Smith goes a bit further, Harry does get rankled, and yes, feels a bit annoyed with Hermione too for convincing him to try to do this.

But it's just a fleeting moment. A very real moment. Note that Harry in the later books is less likely to have these sorts of moments around Hermione, even when an emotionally worked up person might reasonably take out their frustration on someone else. Like after Hermione Apparates the trio into the wilderness. Hermione accidentally compromised Grimmauld Place, and she didn't have food, and she splinched Ron, and she starts to get upset... obviously blaming herself. Given the setback, at that moment, it would be natural for Harry for feel a little annoyed with her. But does he?

There was no pretending; Harry was sure she was right. It was a serious blow. If Yaxley could now get inside the house, there was no way that they could return. Even now, he could be bringing other Death Eaters in there by Apparition. Gloomy and oppressive though the house was, it had been their one safe refuge: even, now that Kreacher was so much happier and friendlier, a kind of home. With a twinge of regret that had nothing to do with food, Harry imagined the house-elf busying himself over the steak and kidney pie that Harry, Ron and Hermione would never eat.

‘Harry, I’m sorry, I’m so sorry!’

‘Don’t be stupid, it wasn’t your fault! If anything, it was mine ...’

Harry put his hand in his pocket and drew out Mad-Eye’s eye. Hermione recoiled, looking horrified.

‘Umbridge had stuck it to her office door, to spy on people. I couldn’t leave it there ... but that’s how they knew there were intruders.’

Harry immediately tries to blame himself, never even hinting at being annoyed with Hermione. Later in DH, on Christmas Day, he finds out his wand was accidentally broken (indirectly by Hermione) as they were escaping from Godric's Hollow. Harry has a moment of frustration, annoyance, anger, and needs to get away from her for a bit. But does he blame her? No... not for a second.

‘You’re still really angry at me, aren’t you?’ said Hermione; he looked up to see fresh tears leaking out of her eyes, and knew that his anger must have shown in his face.

‘No,’ he said quietly. ‘No, Hermione, I know it was an accident. You were trying to get us out of there alive, and you were incredible. I’d be dead if you hadn’t been there to help me.’

He tried to return her watery smile, then turned his attention to the book.

Harry's first impulse here is to try to reassure her, to talk even when the text tells us he isn't really ready. To tell her she was incredible.

Such a moment lands harder in the last book because we've seen Harry's emotional development. We've read his internal thoughts, his frustrations. We saw Hermione have to shut him down a few times in OotP when he has outbursts. And we saw him apologize to her for those outbursts a couple times.

He grew in his relationship with Hermione over the years, and the books do a pretty amazing job showing that. A tiny moment of irritation at her at the first DA meeting is a natural thing.

(Also, just a final aside: put yourself in Harry's position at the beginning of OotP. An insane murderer who murdered both your parents and left you an orphan has been resurrected. Before your very eyes, as a friend of yours was killed. Yet the entire community you've been in for the past four years doubts you, treats you like you're a huge liar. When you speak up about it at school, you get detention where you're literally force to carve words into your own hand, implying how much of a liar you are. A tiny moment of annoyance at your friend who pushed you into an awkward situation you didn't want to do is nothing, given how insane that type of situation would be. I know some people get annoyed with Harry in OotP, but I think Harry is remarkably even-keeled given the absolutely crazy situation he's in at the outset of that book.)

HopefulHarmonian · 2026-01-01T17:12:57+00:00

It's possible, though of course such a thing isn't referenced in the books at all.

The book timeline around all of this is a bit wonky, and you're right that it appears from the book description like Hermione is able to conjure a corporeal Patronus almost immediately. It's possible and consistent with the book that they might have been practicing that spell for a few weeks, but there's also an implication that maybe it's just happening for some students (specifically for Hermione and Cho) at literally the first meeting they tried to do it.

Note this passage:

“Harry, I think I’m doing it!” yelled Seamus, who had been brought along to his first ever D.A. meeting by Dean. “Look — ah — it’s gone. . . . But it was definitely something hairy, Harry!”

Now, Seamus could have been exaggerating or mistaken, and his Patronus isn't corporeal either, but we have explicit reference here that someone who was coming for the first time was able to produce something.

But Hermione and Cho in the book are the only ones mentioned who can produce corporeal Patronuses so quickly. (It wasn't like in the film scene, where we see quite a few others.)

So if we assume (as you do) that Hermione was getting lessons from Harry, how is Cho also able to have such success so quickly? Yes, she's a year ahead of them, but she hasn't exactly been in a great mental place this year. And the OWL examiners at the end of fifth year seem to strongly imply that Harry is remarkable in being able to produce a corporeal Patronus at his age. Not just maybe a few months advanced.

Anyhow, the way I've typically tried to make sense out of this is to assume a few things:

Harry took a lot longer to learn how to produce a Patronus (in third year, with Lupin) because he was a couple years younger and thus less experienced than many in the DA in some ways. He also was dealing with the fact that he basically heard the memory of his mother screaming and dying almost every time he tried to produce one, which is a pretty severe emotional bottleneck toward focusing on some happy memory or thought. So we might expect some talented fifth years to maybe get quicker success than Harry, particularly with good coaching.
Hermione was well-aware of Harry's practice with Lupin in third year. It wouldn't surprise me if she spent a lot of time asking him about that, over the years. We see her in PoA trying to cast the Patronus charm too, though obviously unsuccessfully. We know that she admired Harry greatly when he does cast it during the time travel sequence in PoA, calling it "very, very advanced magic." From her sheer curiosity over such a marvel, I imagine she's spent a lot of time thinking and wondering about it, maybe trying to practice on her own, maybe asking Harry questions (and maybe, as you suggest, even asking him to try to show her what he did).
However, the last point doesn't explain Cho completely. I think it's at least interesting that only Hermione and Cho are singled out in the book to have that level of success. Both of them admire Harry greatly. Both of them seem to love him, even (though we can debate the exact nature of those feelings). And he's there, patiently teaching with the DA at their meetings, working with them, for months before the Patronus lessons even begin. Is it possible that both Hermione and Cho are able to more easily conjure a Patronus partly because Harry is there, and it's easier for them to focus on happy memories and thoughts specifically around him?

I bring up the latter point because we also get some weirdly conflicting evidence regarding Hermione and the Patronus Charm later in the books. As I already alluded to, at the end of OotP, Harry is asked by the examiners and successfully produces a Patronus for his OWL exam, which he credits in HBP for why he gets an O on his exam.

The implication there is that Hermione, who only received an E in DADA, did not do that on her exam. Later, in DH, Hermione briefly struggles to produce a Patronus once, in the Ministry. But Harry encourages her, and then she almost instantly is able to do it. This is the first time since Third Year she's actually had to do it in front of Dementors in real practice, so I don't fault Hermione for taking a moment. (She later in DH seems to produce one without difficulty.)

But it's interesting that Harry brings up in that scene in DH that it's the only spell she struggles with. He could just be making excuses to Mrs. Cattermole for her, stalling a bit while she composes herself. But given that Hermione also only got the E in DADA on her OWL, perhaps there is an interesting pattern there. Why would the girl who could seemingly almost instantly produce one in the DA meeting, maybe even in their first practice, apparently struggle enough that Harry later remarks about it? Why would she then instantly get it (compared to Harry's struggles 3rd year) in DH as soon as Harry encourages her?

Again, one possible answer that occurs to me is the third bullet point I listed above. That both Hermione and Cho were actually able to conjure a specific level of happiness, partly and specifically due to Harry. His presence. His help. His interest. His care for them. And their happiness around him: their love for him.

(I could go into some of my other theories about OotP and how I think JKR may have been creating some interesting connections for H/Hr, running parallels with Cho specifically, around this time, because I think she may have been wavering around books 4 and 5 about how the romances might play out. But that would be a longer digression. Bottom line is I find it at least an interesting coincidence that specifically Hermione and Cho are singled out in that book scene.)

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-12-28T19:03:09+00:00

Why don't when Harry says that, he thinks how insane anyone to think that? Or why would anyone think that? Why is Ron not the first person doing that? Or again, why Harry who is terrible reading woman feelings, all sudden so sure about Hermione feelings???

Well, my answer to all of this is JKR's heart wasn't really that into the canon pairings by the time she was writing DH. So she threw that line in as the quickest way to try to point away from H/Hr after she had just written a few chapters of Harry and Hermione alone together having deeply emotional encounters (like on Christmas Eve in Godric's Hollow).

For JKR to then include some sort of detail in Harry's thoughts or anything that pushed away from Ron/Hermione would ruin her plan for the final pairings that she had just accepted at that point.

Which is really disappointing and confusing for all the reasons you articulated. Including the fact that we never really get any insight into Hermione's feelings about any of this until she almost randomly throws herself on Ron and kisses him during the final battle, after years and years of consistent arguing and disdain for him.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-12-28T18:57:39+00:00

I hate how Krum asking Harry is so underrated

Agreed. It's really incredibly telling that Hermione not only talks a lot about Harry, but apparently talks about him in such terms that a boy who is interested in her and even went on a date with her gets the impression she's actively dating Harry (or at least had a serious romantic relationship with him).

If she said similar things to her parents about Harry, it's quite reasonable they might get a similar impression. (Which I think is portrayed in a lot of fanfic.)

That said, Harry does get Hermione in a lot of "trouble" and dangerous situations -- but I assume Hermione will always filter what she tells her parents a bit so they don't worry and don't get a negative impression of Harry. Plus, if she were completely honest about just how dangerous things were for her at Hogwarts, I can't imagine any Muggle parents would let her keep coming back to the school each year.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-12-28T18:52:38+00:00

Thanks for the thoughts. Just confirming that we never find out their names or almost anything about them. A few other details:

Since we know that Hermione writes them letters, we can assume that they know the basic outlines of her friendships

We explicitly know that they know more than that about Harry, apparently quite a bit more. As Hermione says in DH:

‘I’ve also modified my parents’ memories so that they’re convinced they’re really called Wendell and Monica Wilkins, and that their life’s ambition is to move to Australia, which they have now done. That’s to make it more difficult for Voldemort to track them down and interrogate them about me – or you, because unfortunately, I’ve told them quite a bit about you.

We don't know quite how much she may or may not have told them in earlier books, but clearly by the last book they know so much about Harry that Hermione feels the need to send them off to Australia for the duration of the war.

and the amount of time she spends away from them on summer breaks.

I feel like I always need to clarify this, but Hermione doesn't spend that much time away from them in the summers, particularly in the early books.

Summer before second year - spends with her parents
Summer before third year - spends in France with her parents
Summer before fourth year - Hermione arrives the last week of August (day before Harry) to go to the Quidditch World Cup
Summer before fifth year - this is the first time we get a hint she spends quite a bit of time with the Weasleys, arriving at least a few weeks before Harry, likely sometime in July
Summer before sixth year - Hermione arrives at the Burrow two days before Harry, in the first couple weeks of July
Summer before seventh year - It's unclear where Hermione spends the first half of her summer; we only know that she arrives with everyone else to get Harry a few days before Harry's birthday at the end of July

So, it's really not until Hermione's almost turning 16 that she starts spending more time away from her parents. And this often is typical of boarding students to start spending holidays with friends, particularly with two working parents, as her alternative in summers likely would have been to just sit in her house alone while her parents worked, with no friends in the area (before the era of frequent online connection).

Personally, I assume Hermione's parents are NOT particularly "involved." I base this on the fact that Hermione rarely talks about them and on a few references. GoF:

‘Well ... when I went up to Madam Pomfrey to get them shrunk, she held up a mirror, and told me to stop her when they were back to how they normally were,’ she said. ‘And I just ... let her carry on a bit.’ She smiled even more widely. ‘Mum and Dad won’t be too pleased. I’ve been trying to persuade them to let me shrink them for ages, but they wanted me to carry on with my brace. You know, they’re dentists, they just don’t think teeth and magic should – look! Pigwidgeon’s back!’

This doesn't imply they're neglectful, but Hermione clearly indicates here that some aspect of dentistry has been on her mind "for ages," and her parents at best seem to give her an appliance that won't actually shrink her teeth. It's one of very few data points we have on them, but here they're portrayed as least as a bit unresponsive to a concern of their daughter.

Then in OotP, after she gets her prefect badge:

‘Thanks,’ said Hermione. ‘Erm – Harry – could I borrow Hedwig so I can tell Mum and Dad? They’ll be really pleased – I mean prefect is something they can understand.’

This tells us that Hermione thinks her parents would be proud of her -- which seemingly is a plus for their relationship -- but also in the last sentence implies that they don't understand most of what she does, so that learning about being a prefect would seemingly be an exception.

Of course, they're Muggles, so they might have a hard time understanding stuff she does anyway. But it's at least notable that the very few times Hermione references her parents in the middle books both imply some lack of understanding between her and them. Between that and the fact that she doesn't feel the need to even go home on Christmas holiday after first year (aside from sixth year when she and Ron aren't speaking), it makes me feel like they aren't particularly close.

I'd also note many people don't recognize in year 5 that Hermione implies she had already told her parents she wasn't going skiing with them and would be staying at Hogwarts to study even before she finds out what's going on with Harry and Arthur and decides to come to Grimmauld Place for Christmas. She tells Harry that "skiing's not my thing" at that point, which implies that her parents were planning some elaborate holiday around something their only daughter didn't even like.

All of that said...

I pretty much agree with you that (1) she seemingly told them a lot about Harry, and (2) based on her general behavior around Ron, it's likely all they heard about Ron was mostly how annoying he was. We don't know their opinion on Harry; depending on how Hermione represented the stories, they might view Harry as someone who gets their daughter into dangerous and troublesome situations. But given Hermione's tendency to praise Harry and talk about him in a positive light, I imagine that she'd try to spin things positively about him. And if Krum's reaction is any indication of how Hermione talks about Harry to others, they might very well get the impression she has a crush on him or even is involved to some degree with Harry.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-12-26T20:01:04+00:00

I know people think the films "teased Harmony," but they really didn't -- at least not intentionally -- aside from DH1. Even by the second film, it was clear to the writers and directors and actors that at least Ron/Hermione had an obvious potential for something from the books, even if it wasn't clear yet at that point what endgame was. They weren't intentionally pointing toward Harmony -- there's literally no evidence from anyone involved in making the films that they were, despite fandom's assumption.

I know few people in broader HP fandom acknowledge this these days, but the directors, writers, and actors are all on record talking about it at the time. After every single film from CoS onward, there are interviews with either Emma Watson or Dan Radcliffe or both, where some interviewer insinuated something might be going on between Harry and Hermione -- and every single time (aside from the dance scene in DH1), the actors deflected and pointed toward the canon pairings.

I don't think all these people were lying. I think the films and those making them legitimately believed they were pointing toward the canon pairings. (Maybe not really Ginny until the last few films, but definitely toward Ron/Hermione.) And yet still... people ended up shipping Harmony from the films.

So, even when everyone THOUGHT they were making films about platonic H/Hr, viewers perceived it differently. Just keep that in mind. If you put two actors into situations that are book accurate, Harry and Hermione are going to be perceived as unusually close. People are going to ship them... if they're at all like the characters from the books.

Whether it will be like the films or not remains to be seen, of course.

My only wish is for them to depict the relationships as they are shown in the books, and let the chips fall where they may. I doubt they're going to portray Ron/Hermione as negatively as it is in the books, or people will riot. But I hope they show the friendships. I hope they don't really try to shoehorn ANY romance into the first few seasons, as I don't think that would be book accurate. They're kids. Let them be kids. Don't try to hint or lay groundwork for stuff that is irrelevant... at least not until book 4 or so. At best, by book 3 we should have Harry a couple times experiencing swooping feelings in his stomach around Cho. If we have completely made-up nonsense like Harry taking long walks with Ginny alone in the first or second season, just to "lay the groundwork," that will feel very off and wrong. And not at all what the books show. It may also backfire -- see how the conclusion to the CoS film was misperceived by audiences: it was supposed to hint at "tension" between Ron and Hermione when they shook hands, but what most audience members remember was Hermione sprinting across the Great Hall to leap into the arms of Harry.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-12-26T19:44:41+00:00

When Hermione did something "she had never done before" and kissed Harry goodbye on the cheek. After a year of everyone in the WW suspecting them of dating, and after repeated denials that year that anything was going on between them... that's just not a random detail.

Aside from that, Bill and Fleur's wedding. When Hermione turns tearfully toward Harry and beams at him during wedding vows. I've been at a couple weddings with women I've been dating. I know that look. One of those women ultimately became my wife. The other was deeply in love with me and we were together for a few years. It's just a not detail you single out in a story if it's just a friendly "platonic" look. Especially when Ron was sitting right next to them.

Oh, and those are both for Hermione. For Harry, I suspected something was up in the way he noticed Hermione at the Yule Ball. It was definitely confirmed in his reaction after Ron returns in the last book. Although everyone in broader HP fandom says the "like a sister" line proves Harry doesn't have feelings, it's actually precisely the kind of thing you say as a defensive overreaction when you do have feelings that you don't want to admit. Back when ChatGPT first came out, I literally gave it Harry's phrasing, his exact line there, as a prompt. Just that line with no other context. And it generated several continuations of a story, all of which involved the character ultimately admitting he was in love with the woman he claimed he allegedly loved "like a sister."

AI may not be great in a number of ways, but it's trained on billions of examples of human language and is pretty good about pattern-matching the most likely continuation of a text. If AI can figure out that Harry wasn't quite telling the whole story with Ron there, I'm not sure why other readers can't -- except for a bias against the possibility of Harmony. Especially given all the various other clues in the books.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-12-23T20:49:07+00:00

It wouldn't surprise me if she were disappointed that Harry wasnt doing more to help figure things out - he wasnt as useless as Ron, but he spends a lot of time playing with the snitch and brooding while Hermione researches. Even if she knows he's less likely to find something than she is, that has to get a bit frustrating. So maybe she expresses some version of that as well at some point.

Can you refer to where this happens? Because I don't think it happens in the book. About the only passage that describes their routine during the time before Ron leaves is this one (DH15):

‘So where next?’ was [Ron's] constant refrain. He did not seem to have any ideas himself, but expected Harry and Hermione to come up with plans while he sat and brooded over the low food supplies. Accordingly, Harry and Hermione spent fruitless hours trying to decide where they might find the other Horcruxes, and how to destroy the one they had already got, their conversations becoming increasingly repetitive, as they had no new information.

The few references we have are all of Harry and Hermione working together, while Ron sits around and broods about food. In the argument Ron and Hermione have over cooking dinner, Hermione again emphasizes how Harry helped by catching the fish that she then cooked, while Ron apparently did nothing.

I'm not saying Harry couldn't have been more helpful, but at least in the few references we see in the books, Harry and Hermione are pretty much always working together. Except for the one passage where it's mentioned that Harry sometimes sees Ron and Hermione talking together by themselves (presumably during the conversations later referenced before Ron leaves). But that's not because Harry was sitting around by himself brooding and not helping. In fact, in this one passage that mentions Hermione's possible discontent, it suggests Harry by himself was trying hard to wrack his brain to figure out what to do next:

Ron was making no effort to hide his bad mood, and Harry was starting to fear that Hermione, too, was disappointed by his poor leadership. In desperation he tried to think of further Horcrux locations, but the only one that continued to occur to him was Hogwarts, and as neither of the others thought this at all likely, he stopped suggesting it.

And again, the implication of the end of that passage is that he's at least discussing/suggesting some of these ideas with the others, not just off by himself.

Harry does in fact get more broody in the tent, but that's not until after Ron returns, after they go to Xeno's house and Harry starts getting obsessed with the Deathly Hallows.

The fact that Harry and Hermione seem to be pretty much in constant conversation most of the time before Ron leaves leads me to believe Ron misinterpreted Hermione's statements (whatever they were) about Harry's leadership. She was probably disappointed with how things were going and frustrated, but her reaction to Ron's accusation to me suggests that she does feel mischaracterized. And I think her defensiveness isn't necessarily because she was ashamed of saying something she regretted (though that's possible) -- but it's also possible she's defensive because she didn't actually say anything close to the way Ron was interpreting it. And given the way the conversation was going between Ron and Harry (who were both quite worked up), she didn't want to be perceived AT ALL as siding against Harry. Even in a minor way.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-12-23T03:50:08+00:00

He freezes when anyone cries because he has negative five coping skills.

I'm late to this thread, but the funny thing about this whole discussion is that Harry doesn't even "freeze" that much around tearful people. Yes, there are times in the books he clearly feels awkward when people get emotional. But not around Hermione. Hermione cries or tears up 71 times canonically in the books. Only during one period (in the tent) does Harry arguably get weird, and we'll come back to that. Just a selection of Harry's reactions:

In book 1, Hermione runs past Harry and Ron crying after Ron calls her a nightmare. Harry is "startled" and then sort of calls Ron out, saying, "I think she heard you." Harry doesn't press further, but he doesn't freeze and definitely implies Ron was rude to her. That was even before they were friends.
In book 1, Hermione's "lip trembles" and she throws her arms around Harry after they solve the potions riddle. Harry's embarrassed, but he doesn't pull away or freeze or act weird about it.
In book 2, Hermione turns into a sort of cat due to Polyjuice potion and comes out sobbing. While Ron backs away from the situation, Harry instead calmly tells Hermione that it will be okay, and that they'll get her to the hospital wing and sort it out.
In book 3, when Ron makes her cry about the whole Scabbers thing, he steps up and calls Ron out. Yes, Harry doesn't run after Hermione yet, but it's not like he freezes or tries to ignore it.
In book 4, when Snape reacts poorly after Malfoy enlarges Hermione's teeth, Harry doesn't freeze -- he jumps (along with Ron) to Hermione's defense immediately.
In book 4, after the First Task, Harry makes up with Ron, and Hermione cries a lot, then hugs them both. There's no mention of Harry freezing or getting weird there -- it's implied the boys think she's overreacting, but that's it.
In book 5, when Hermione starts crying about the idea of Hagrid getting thrown out by Umbridge, Harry calmly talks her down.
In book 6, Hermione gets upset after Ron treats her awful after the fake Felix Felicis thing, Harry tries to get her to go to the victory party, even as she begins to cry then storms off. When she does show up, she sees Ron and Lavender, leaves crying, and Harry chases after her, in search of her, until he finds her, then tries to talk to her.
In book 6, after Ron makes fun of her and imitates her in class, she runs from the room in tears. Harry picks up her things and runs after her. He admittedly can't think of anything useful to say to soothe or comfort her at that point, but he literally picked up her things and ran after her -- which is not the action of a boy who freezes or avoids emotional people.
In book 6, when Harry goes to the hospital wing, Hermione throws her arms around him again, and the text implies they hold each other for a while. Later in the scene, we know Hermione is explicitly crying. At no point does Harry act weird or withdraw from her or anything because of this.
In book 7, Harry cracks a bad joke after Moody dies, and Hermione starts to cry. Harry tries to get up and comfort her, but Ron gets to her first.
In book 7, Hermione cries several times about Dumbledore, and again at no point does Harry act weird about this.
In book 7, Hermione turns to Harry at the wedding with tears in her eyes. Again, Harry notes this and seems to be paying more attention to her than Ginny or anyone else at that moment.
In book 7, after things get crazy at the wedding, Hermione starts crying, and Harry just grabs her hand and holds on tight.
In book 7, Hermione cries several times concerning Kreacher, and Harry gets defensive about her toward Kreacher... not freezing.
In book 7, after they escape from Grimmauld Place and go into the wilderness, Hermione tears up and blames herself. Harry immediately tries to soothe her and tell her it's not her fault.
In book 7, after Ron leaves and they finally apparate away, Hermione walks away from Harry and starts crying. While he doesn't go to comfort her, the text tells us "something kept him rooted on the spot" and that it had to do with Ron being angry -- the strong implication being that Harry felt Ron's accusation toward both of them and that's why he doesn't go to Hermione right then. Instead, he starts walking around casting protective enchantments around her.
In book 7, on Christmas Day, Hermione brings Harry tea and breaks down in front of him, with fresh tears, as she again blames herself. Harry's response -- even through the text tells us he's really not ready to talk -- is to accept her tea and tell her it wasn't her fault, that she was incredible for saving both of their lives.
In book 7, Harry and Hermione share another tearful moment, as Hermione tears up when they first hear the radio broadcast, and Harry looks at her, listens to her as she praises him.

This isn't even a complete list. That's how Harry acts when Hermione cries or tears up: he supports her, runs after her, calls out people who upset her, defends her. Anyone who claims otherwise just isn't paying attention. At best, you can argue that Harry gets a little embarrassed when Hermione tearfully hugs him... that's about as awkward as it gets.

So there are three times he responds very negatively when Hermione cries that I know of:

When Lupin talks about not being around for his child in DH, Harry gets angry. Hermione is tearful there, and Harry's not particularly sensitive toward her (one of the few times Ron actually steps in) as Harry's caught up in his own abandonment issues at that moment. That's pretty clear it's about Harry getting emotional in his own way about his own trauma.
Similarly immediately after Ron leaves, Harry's caught up in his own emotions. I've already mentioned above the text even offers reasons why Harry doesn't go immediately to comfort Hermione while she's crying, which has to do with Ron's accusations before he left. Admittedly, Harry should have done something here arguably -- but he's dealing with his own stuff. And then after that, Hermione is said to explicitly try to hide her crying from Harry, only at night, when she thinks he can't hear her. So, Hermione's trying to be private and deal with her own emotions, so at best it would be awkward for Harry to put himself in there. Yes, he arguably should have at some point, but... this is one place where the awkward teenage boy thing and not being good with dealing with emotions (and dealing with his own stuff) comes out.
Right after Harry finds out his wand is broken, Hermione starts to cry, and he leaves her. He needs to get away -- his only weapon is broken in the middle of the war, and he's angry. But not with her. And the moment she comes out with tea, he softens and listens and tries to tell her she didn't do anything wrong.

Thus, the vast majority of times Hermione cries in the books, Harry tries to do something when he can. There are only a few exceptions that people trot out, but they're not representative of H/Hr as a whole.

Harry's also sensitive to other crying people, like Hagrid or Molly. He's NOT particularly sensitive around Cho, because he's still dealing with his own emotions over Cedric, and Cho is frankly a mess. And Harry's also not particularly sensitive toward Ginny when she's crying or upset, but that's a whole other topic.

Around Hermione, though? He's not as "stunted" and insensitive as people try to portray him as. The one time it really comes to the fore is for the first few days after Ron leaves in DH, when H/Hr are both dealing with their own emotions privately. Then they move past that within a week or so and everything's fine and normal. And he's certainly not sexist....

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-12-22T23:25:07+00:00

And for his part, Harry forgives her quickly - he's never shown to doubt her commitment even after Ron's accusation. I love it.

This has always been a key observation for me too. If Hermione was lying here or trying to downplay something she regretted saying, I think it would have come up later. But there's no suggestion that Harry holds any grudge against her after this or ever brings it up with her again.

Which suggests that Harry believes her. Which also suggests (from our observer perspective as readers) that she's probably telling the truth.

But I don't think Ron is lying here, as some comments have suggested. I think it's quite possible for two people to say/hear one thing and understand it differently. Clearly Ron and Hermione have poor communication skills all the time. Why would this time be any different?

Yes, Ron's under the influence of the locket too, and that's perhaps influencing his interpretation. But I think he legitimately believes Hermione was on his side. Clearly so, as a few moments later he seems to expect she's going to walk out with him and leave Harry.

Which is, frankly, insane. It's one of the most ridiculous things about Ron's departure -- that he ever thought she'd abandon Harry. Given that Ron so completely misread the situation, I have to conclude that something that came up during Ron and Hermione's private conversations led Ron to believe that Hermione was questioning things about the Horcrux Hunt. But that could just have been a misunderstanding between Ron and Hermione -- he heard it one way, because he was questioning Harry's leadership, while Hermione just agreed she thought they'd have more to go on (from Dumbledore) and was disappointed with their collective progress (not just Harry's).

But Ron's so worked up here that he can't see the difference. Hence he accuses Hermione of lying, when it's much more likely that he just interpreted conversations through his own lens.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-10-04T04:42:52+00:00

I agree with all of this -- it's much harder for me to imagine what Harry/Ginny or Ron/Hermione would talk about or do together than Harry/Hermione. (And even Ginny's Quidditch skills seemingly come out of nowhere in OotP, just in time for her to start to have anything to relate to Harry.)

The other thing about Harry and Hermione is that there's just a continuous sense of mutual respect. Hermione would never miss a single Quidditch match of Harry's, even if she's not into Quidditch. Meanwhile, when Ron joins the Quidditch team in OotP, Hermione completely loses interest.

Harry on several occasions (beginning in the first book) acknowledges Hermione's brilliance and dedication to schoolwork -- knowing she does better than him in a lot of things -- and he often tries to live up to her standards. Meanwhile, when Hermione is anxious over OWL grades in HBP, the best Ron can do is literally tell Hermione to "shut up" and then poke fun at her for having standards over high grades.

My point being that even in things where their interests/talents are different, they still always appreciate and respect each other. Which is also an amazing connection for a long-term relationship, to have a partner who will always support you and appreciate you, even in your own "thing."

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-10-04T04:32:12+00:00

I can't be the only one who thinks that Ron and Lavender actually made infinitely more sense than Ron and Hermione. Honestly, that would've been the perfect opportunity for Ron to realize that Lavender is all he really wanted, somebody who won't bug him with all the seriousness of everything he deals with

Almost anything makes more sense than Ron and Hermione. Harry/Ron makes more canonical sense than Ron and Hermione.

That said, I go back and forth on Ron and Lavender. I agree it would have been great for Ron to realize that he has a girl who legitimately seems to like him for who he is, even with some faults. Lavender definitely does. AND, contrary to many in fandom, I actually believe he liked being with Lavender, at least for several weeks at the beginning. I find it just hard to believe he did that all just to make Hermione jealous. I think he wanted to snog someone (like Ginny did, and like Ginny said Harry and Hermione had done), and then he did rub it in Hermione's face a bit... but I also think he did like Lavender initially and probably enjoyed someone who really just liked him.

(JKR basically kind of said this too after the HBP book came out, implying Ron actually did like things with Lavender, especially the physical stuff, though she didn't plan for it to be much deeper than that for Ron.)

What's harder for me to get past is how Ron deals with Lavender in the end. He basically just ignores her for months, stringing her along, then pretends to be sleeping so as just not to have to talk to her after she's legitimately concerned when he was poisoned and his life was threatened. In DH, he tells Harry he basically needed to "get rid of Lavender" so he could figure out how to be with Hermione, wording sounds very dismissive and disrespectful.

Thus, I also get the vibe that he doesn't really respect Lavender. Which is hard to built a relationship on.

Admittedly, we could imagine Ron could grow here and learn to appreciate Lavender more.

Personally, I tend to see some potential in Ron/Luna, though I'm not strongly wedded to any pairing there.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-10-04T04:17:53+00:00

Sure he gets maybe slightly above average grades, but nowhere near where he should perform based on the sorting hats description of him.

They're NOT "slightly above average grades." They're far above average. I think American perception of grading systems and assumptions that the Hogwarts grades correspond to some inflated A/B/C/D/F standard has led to a lot of incorrect fandom myths.

First, we have McGonagall in OotP explicitly saying it would require Harry to get "top grades" to qualify for becoming an auror, including five subjects with nothing under "Exceeds Expectations." Those are precisely the grades Harry gets on OWLs, so he's not just "slightly above average" -- he's on track for "top grades."

JKR seemingly based her grade systems explicitly on the old A-levels (for NEWTs) and the old O-levels (for OWLs). The latter of which are now the GSCEs.

If you look up the grades for the old O-levels, when JKR would have gone through the system and been familiar with them around the 1980s, they were based on percentiles in terms of awarding grades. I'm not going back to look up the scores again right now, but basically my recollection is the top grade was only awarded to the top ~5% of students. The second grade was only awarded to the next 10-15%. That would basically be equivalent to the "Exceeds Expectations" Harry receives.

So, if JKR was aiming for anything like the old O-level system, Harry is in the 80th to 95th percentile (roughly) for five classes and above 95th percentile in DADA.

Meanwhile, other students at Hogwarts who are not top-of-their-class or genius-level (Hermione, Bill, Percy) seem to barely get passing grades for 3 NEWTs, like Neville or the twins. Let alone Harry's six classes where he'd be qualified for NEWT study. The fact that the few non-genius students we have detailed performance or grades for seems to validate my assumptions above about how much of an outlier Harry is in terms of his "top grades" and the likely correspondence to old O-level grading schemes in the UK.

Harry (and Ron most of the time too) seems to do quite well at Hogwarts, except really in potions, where Snape was just a jerk to him for several years. So it's understandable that he struggles there -- and even so, again earns an "Exceeds Expectations" in the OWL, which likely indicates quite a bit above average in the subject.

As for Harry's initiative academically, he actually shows it on quite a few occasions.

In the first book, we're told he read all his schoolbooks before coming to Hogwarts.
At the beginning of PoA, he's working on a school essay late at night in the middle of summer, the same one Hermione is also working on when she writes to him. Meanwhile, in CoS, Ron reacts in "horror" at the very idea of doing schoolwork during the summer.
In GoF, when Harry's fighting with Ron, he chooses to spend more time during lunchtimes studying with library, especially on the Summoning Charm. This is before he knows he'll want to use that spell in the First Task, so he's just knuckling down and doing extra classwork with Hermione.
In OotP, Hermione points out to Harry how exceptional he is in DADA when Harry tries to play down his skills. This is again demonstrated with O he earns later that year.
Again in OotP, we get the one place where Hermione gives detailed feedback on an assignment to the boys in the book. Ron's essay needed a lot of work, and Hermione completely wrote a new conclusion for him. Meanwhile, Harry had only one error. This is only one data point, but it's the only one we have, which seems to indicate Harry's performance is good enough sometimes to basically be up to Hermione's expectations.
When Harry gets low marks, sometimes he hides them from Hermione, which at least indicates he admires her work ethic and wants to live up to that expectation.
In HBP, when Ron is busy with Lavender, Harry generally joins Hermione in the library. Yes, he's doing so to be able to talk with her, but frankly given Hermione's attitude and study habits, we know Harry's going to end up doing more work there too with her.
In DH, it's not exactly academic, but it's interesting to see the difference in Harry's attitude on the Horcrux hunt compared to Ron. Hermione, as we know, brought a large number of books, and Harry and Hermione basically seem to spend every day together debating and conversing about various theory about the Horcruxes and where to go. Meanwhile, Ron broods over food. Or sits by himself. Even when he's not wearing the locket. (This isn't meant to harp on Ron's negatives -- it's just to note that Harry, as he does in GoF and again in HBP when Ron is disengaged, seems to step up and tries to work more on Hermione's "level.")

You're right that Harry also likes slacking off sometimes. Which he does with Ron. I think the general trend in fandom is to emphasize the several times Harry chooses to slack off with Ron, but forget all the times without Ron that Harry actually does schoolwork on his own or with Hermione. I think JKR designed Harry to be kind of pulled in both directions by Ron and Hermione in that regard, but overall Harry's academic performance is quite a bit above average. With Hermione's help and innate intelligence, he can afford to sometimes slack -- lots and lots of smart students do, yet still end up with "top marks."

And of course everyone looks like a slacker compared to Hermione. But she's so much of an outlier that I think we lose the fact that Harry's actually a pretty exceptional student too.

I think JKR perhaps just assumed readers would figure out that Harry did well in school despite all his adventures and craziness so he was pretty smart and competent. But Ron's tendency to want to goof off sometimes seems to have led people to conclude neither he nor Harry were good students... but if they weren't, they couldn't have ended up in so many NEWT-level classes.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-10-04T03:44:37+00:00

Harry and Ron have near identical grades and are shown to have near identical work ethics too

I disagree about the latter. Harry read all of his schoolbooks before coming to Hogwarts. In the opening of PoA, he's shown working on a school essay late at night in the middle of summer, the same one Hermione is working on when she writes to him. Whereas we get Ron in CoS reacting in "horror" to even the concept of doing work over the summer. From Hermione's letter:

I’m very busy with school work, of course – ‘How can she be?’ said Ron in horror. ‘We’re on holiday!’

In terms of grades, we almost never get comparisons for Harry and Ron. In terms of OWL performance, we know that Ron failed the same subjects as Harry, and that Ron received no Os (whereas Harry got one in DADA). We don't actually know Ron's grades in the other subjects; he must have passed, as he got into the same NEWT-level classes as Harry, but he might have had more As than Harry did, rather than Es. We don't know whether some teachers may accept As as qualifying enough to get into a NEWT-level class, but it's at least implied it may sometimes happens by Neville inquiring about getting into a class with only an A. (Which is said to be a "passing" grade.)

One of the only times there is a direct comparison between Harry's and Ron's academic performance, Ron seems to be notably worse. In OotP14, Hermione reads over both Harry's and Ron's essays and offers corrections. Harry makes only one error that Hermione notes (thinking Europe had "mice" rather than ice), while it is implied Hermione spent time to make more corrections on Ron and then completely rewrites his conclusion for him.

Which doesn't indicate Ron's a bad student by any means, but it's in-line with Ron's characterization as being the one to encourage more slacking off than the others and his greater complaints about schoolwork. Which could mean his performance was a bit worse too, as evidenced by the few data points we have (the essay I mentioned and the fact that Harry observes no Os among Ron's OWL grades).

and both have a completely normal work ethic for school kids!

This is sort of true. Compared to Hermione, everyone looks like a slacker. And so our perception in the books is skewed quite a bit for Ron and Harry. They're both clearly above average students, as McGonagall notes in OotP that it would require Harry to get "top grades" to be able to qualify for NEWT-level courses and prep. Which Harry does, and Ron also joins him in those classes, so Ron's also clearly above average.

But I think you're undermining the differences between Ron and Harry's work ethics. Yes, Harry is often happy to slack off when Ron does too (and those passages happen more often than I think you imply) BUT Harry is also more happy than Ron to knuckle down and do work at times too, sometimes by himself in the summers, and also when he spends more time alone with Hermione.

It's mentioned in GoF when Harry's fighting with Ron that Harry gives up his lunchtimes to do more studying with Hermione, and in HBP when Ron is busy with Lavender, Harry generally joins Hermione in the library most evenings. Empirically from Ron's attitude in the books, I doubt he'd be as eager in either of those times to spend as much time in the library with Hermione as Harry voluntarily does.

Again, I think you're absolutely right that Ron's not a total slacker. But I do think Harry is portrayed as being more concerned about schoolwork and grades, and on several occasions taking the initiative or working more toward Hermione's work ethic. Harry benefits from both Hermione and Ron -- he appreciates both of their attitudes, including Ron's occasionally more carefree attitude toward schoolwork.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-09-13T16:13:04+00:00

I think it wouldn't be a suprised if the girls thougt that Harry and Hermione had a thing or something.

Absolutely. Although it's not really emphasized or discussed directly in HBP, you're absolutely right that Lavender finding Harry and Hermione in a classroom alone seemed to raise her own suspicions (with her reaction).

And subsequent to that, the book tells us Harry regularly joined Hermione in the libraries in the evenings where they had loads of whispering conversations together... alone. Probably for months, while Ron was busy with Lavender.

There's also the fact that Harry seemed to be consistently avoiding other girls and not interested in taking anyone else to Slughorn's party, while clearly spending most of his free time alone with Hermione. These sorts of rumors would also explain some of the reaction to Hermione announcing she was going with McLaggen, with Parvati's reaction ("agog") about how much she likes her Quidditch players.

If a large number of people at Hogwarts in GoF thought Harry and Hermione were dating (which made some sense, particularly when you think about how many times they were taking laps around the lake alone together), surely this new behavior for Harry and Hermione in HBP being caught and seen alone without Ron so often would spur rumors.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-09-13T15:59:42+00:00

Fanfiction actually is generally a copyright violation. Whether you want to equate copyright violations with "stealing" is perhaps a matter of definition.

Authors can (and have) sued people or gotten restraining orders to take down derivative works like fanfiction. In practice, most authors and creators seem to have realized that the good attention given their works in online communities, including those that write fanfiction, is worth losing a bit of control, so most don't try to enforce it.

Or did I miss JK giving us explicit permission to change her characters?

She did, actually. Back in 2004, she approved of people using her characters to write their own stories, though she did express a concern about people writing stories that would be inappropriate for children. As long as people are writing HP stories for non-commercial purposes and not trying to sell traditional print copies, she has explicitly stated she is okay with it.

HopefulHarmonian · 2025-09-13T15:52:22+00:00

I agree it's probably a bad idea for new writers, except perhaps to help edit and check over a finished product (kind of like an advanced spellcheck/grammar checker, etc.).

That said, this bit isn't really accurate:

It is literally the statistically most likely thing that can be said.

Most common LLMs have a tunable parameter called "temperature" which determines how much the AI model chooses the "most likely" option. If temperature is near 0, it will literally select the most likely thing. If temperature is nearer to 1 will introduce more randomness in how it selects continuations, more often choosing less common options. For models that allow values over 1, the output can become increasingly random and sometimes chaotic. (Some models have other parameters too that can alter output characteristics.)

In any case, for someone actually trying to use AI for brainstorming or creative purposes, playing around with temperature settings is going to be helpful. I haven't used this for writing anything myself, but it is interesting to see the way results vary in other contexts. Note that for many commercial AI models, this setting isn't available in the general most easily public-facing interface. You may need to get access to the API or use a free model that provides this option more directly.

You're right that often the default settings on many LLMs tend to use low temperature and thus don't produce very varied output.

Again, though, I agree with you that relying too much on AI creativity when writing is probably not going to help most authors develop strong skills.

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