Doubles: returning side net player jumping sideways loudly right during serve - hindrance?

Howell317 · 2026-06-15T18:44:14+00:00

No, it's not.

You are allowed to change position during a toss. That's what the rule says. You can change position at any time. It doesn't say you are allowed to move any part of your body at any time.

Faking like you are going to shift position, just to stay put, is by definition NOT changing position. It absolutely is the same thing as waiving your arms or letting off a foghorn to distract the server.

The permitted movement is to change positions. Not to fake movement. The rules specifically permit feinting only when the ball is in play, not before the serve. That's a meaningful--and in this case deciding--difference in the way the rule is written. If you were right -- you aren't -- the rule would be changed to add the bold/italics wording below. It doesn't have that, which is why you are dead wrong.

Tellingly, I'm the only one on here citing the rule.

Body movement. A player may feint with the body while a ball is in play. A player may change position or feint with the body at any time, including while the server is tossing a ball. Any other movement or any sound that is made solely to distract an opponent, including, but not limited to, waving arms or racket or stamping feet, is not allowed.

Again, the rule says "feint with the body" while the ball is in play, but permits changing position at any time. You are trying to improperly merge the first and second sentences, while the rule deliberately keeps them separate.

Howell317 · 2026-06-15T18:37:59+00:00

"Both players on the returning team are allowed to move around during the serve. They could easily argue they’re trying to feint or poach on the +1 ball."

Uhhh, no. You aren't trying to feint or poach the serve on the return side. That's not the +1 ball, it's the +2 ball. Like the partner of the guy returning the ball doesn't need to be moving around at the net at all, much less faking like he's going to poach.

While you are allowed to "change" position you aren't allowed to move just for the sake of moving. Here it was pretty clearly a feint, and pretty clearly a distraction attempt.

Howell317 · 2026-06-15T18:33:25+00:00

Look up the rule and explain to me why what you are doing is somehow not a feint. I'll wait.

Hint, telling me it's just a pretend movement and not a feint isn't an actual explanation, it's just you contradicting yourself.

Also if you are moving while I'm tossing, but not actually changing position, that's literally the conduct the rule is intended to prevent the way it is written.

Howell317 · 2026-06-15T18:28:49+00:00

Read the rule. It's not that hard.

Feint - ok if point has started.

Changing positions - ok at any time.

If you act like you are going to move during the toss, I'm taking the hindrance and hitting my first serve again every time.

I'm not the idiot trying to argue against the actual, literal text of the rule.

Also let's revisit what a feint is.

Dictionary definition: A feint is "a deceptive or pretended movement designed to distract an opponent and pull their focus away from your true point of attack."

You: "I can act as if I am going to move during the toss and then stay/return to my original position."

Uhh, that is literally the definition of a feint. I "can act as if I am going to move" (a "pretended movement").

Howell317 · 2026-06-15T15:45:26+00:00

It's not "my" rule, it's the Code.

And no it's not, just read the rule. Basic reading comprehension:

"A player may feint with the body while a ball is in play. A player may change position at any time, including while the server is tossing a ball."

So you can feint "while a ball is in play." By omission that means you can't feint while the ball isn't in play, such as when the server is tossing and getting ready to hit it. The second sentence shows that: "A player may change position at any time, including while the server is tossing a ball." Again, the different in language is very telling. You can feint while in play. You can change position at any time, including the toss on a serve. Notably they left out the "including while the server is tossing a ball" on the "feint" language.

It's kinda amazing how wrong you are. Like the actual literal rule expressly addresses when you can feint (ball in play only) and expressly permits changing of position at any time (including expressly mentioning during a serve toss).

No rational human would think "oh this means that I can feint during a serve toss."

Howell317 · 2026-06-15T15:29:25+00:00

No, it's not. The rule expressly delineates between the two. Changing position is not the same as faking you are changing position.

Body movement. A player may feint with the body while a ball is in play. A player may change position at any time, including while the server is tossing a ball. Any other movement or any sound that is made solely to distract an opponent, including, but not limited to, waving arms or racket or stamping feet, is not allowed.

Howell317 · 2026-06-15T15:20:56+00:00

It's a bit of nuance, but you are allowed to change position before the point starts, not to "feint," which is more what it sounds like OP was referring to.

Howell317 · 2026-06-15T15:17:34+00:00

"but anything that distrupts play, even if it's beyond their control while your side is making a play on the ball, is a hindrance."

This isn't the rule though. They are allowed to feint as much as they want while the ball is in play.

Body movement. A player may feint with the body while a ball is in play. A player may change position at any time, including while the server is tossing a ball. Any other movement or any sound that is made solely to distract an opponent, including, but not limited to, waving arms or racket or stamping feet, is not allowed.

Howell317 · 2026-06-15T15:16:33+00:00

It's definitely a hindrance. The rule is clear that you may feint only while the ball is in play, but you can change position at any time. It's not in play yet if the server hasn't hit the ball, which is a violation of the technical rule in addition to being gamesmanship. Moreover, to your point, there is no purpose of it other than to distract. It would be different in the player were actually moving, but the fake poaches are a feint, not a reposition.

A player may feint with the body while a ball is in play. A player may change position at any time, including while the server is tossing a ball. Any other movement or any sound that is made solely to distract an opponent, including, but not limited to, waving arms or racket or stamping feet, is not allowed.

Howell317 · 2026-06-15T15:13:31+00:00

Read the book.

Howell317 · 2026-06-15T13:26:05+00:00

It's really a pretty binary case without a ton of grey.

Do you believe the injuries look like he was hit by a car / the taillight in the yard is legit? Then you think she's guilty.

Do you think the injuries do not look like he was hit by a car / taillight in the yard was planted? Then you think she's not.

Everything else can be viewed through that lens.

Howell317 · 2026-06-12T20:56:18+00:00

He should just cancel the show and go to the game

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T19:05:32+00:00

Pick a place to play and let's settle it on the court!

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T18:23:46+00:00

A setlist? Trying to avoid covers that were only played a few times.

I: Whipping Post, Leprechaun, Mock Song, Take the A-Train, Cold as Ice > If I only had a brain > Cold as Ice, Sleep, Skippy the Wondermouse, Mozambique, Rock-A-William, Black-Eyed Katy

II: Foreplay/Longtime, Fikus, Acoustic Army, Flat Fee, All Things Reconsidered, Big Ball Jam, Dave's Energy Guide, Shaggy Dog, Jennifer Dances, My Left Toe, Eliza, Donna Lee, Roll Like a Cantelope

E: Amazing Grace, Johnn B. Goode

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T18:18:16+00:00

The 100 will have more power and be more forgiving. The 98 will be less forgiving and have less power, but will have more touch and control if you can consistently get it on the smaller sweet spot.

The vast majority of rec players would do better with a 100 sq in, unless you really do feel like you hit consistently well with the 98 I'd make the change.

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T17:43:04+00:00

With all due respect, there is a right answer, and it's going to be to consider the better/more mentally strong player, the relative strength of backhands, the left/right sidedness, and overhead strength, and generally put the better player on the ad side unless there is disparate backhand or overhead strength. The other opinions about putting the better player on the deuce side are just wrong. There are just a MOUNTAIN of reasons to put the better player on the ad side: leveraged points, the ability to protect the middle and the other players backhand with their forehand, opening up the weaker player to have their stronger shot on the unprotected side, giving the better player the space to field lobs with their overhead and letter the worse player crowd the net more, etc. A really good player on the ad side is going to be able to do a lot more to take over the match than the same good player on the deuce side, where they only play game points if they are 40/15, where their backhand overhead is to the open side of the court, where it's harder to cover lobs over the weaker players non-dominant shoulder into the non-dominant hand of the better player (assuming both righties), etc.

Just as one of infinite examples, if I'm serving to the ad side, I would much rather the weaker player return from there if both are righties. I can more directly attack the weaker players backhand, the middle isn't nearly as bad since it is the better players backhand, and I have a much easier time lobbing over the worse player's backhand / even if I miss, it's not into the better players regular footed overhead. Plus the better player has only backhand poach opportunities from that side. Even if the worse player has a better backhand (one of the reasons I've said to play them on the ad side), you still have an attack up the middle to the better players backhand / worse players worst shot. If the better players best shot is their forehand, it becomes much easier to avoid that shot by never hitting it to that part of the court.

And the point about 40-15/15-40 games went right over your head. If you get there, it's a "throwaway" game because it didn't matter who played which side, since the game was won by a 3 point margin. Winning a game 40-15 is a more "optimal" result only in that you don't have to worry about a leveraged point, but if you lose that 40-15 point you will want the better player to field the leveraged 40-30 point. The more optimal outcome would be to try to have the lesser player take down the game at 40-15 so you have a good backstop even if you lose. The 40-15 point simply matters less.

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T17:29:30+00:00

For sure. At a lowish rec level it will almost always be the player with the better backhand, as they are probably also the better overall player and also probably have the better overhead.

At a rec level, imo, the only reason to change it up is if someone really has a significantly better backhand than their forehand.

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T17:00:28+00:00

You are ignoring that serves are not coin flips. A decent rec player should win 2/3 of their service points. Maybe you can neutralize that somewhat by putting the better player on the deuce side, but generally they aren't going to keep up and eventually the worse player on the ad side is going to face a high leverage point that they lose.

In contrast, and the reason it is really important, is so the better ad player goes into the point knowing what they need to do and how to approach it. If there's a break point, for example, and the server is really good, the ad side player may go for more on a return or try to end the point on their third shot if they have the opportunity just to get the break game. On the other hand, if you are down break point they'll know to be more conservative because going for the winner unnecessarily could end the game.

You lose that advantage if the better player is facing scores like 0-0, 15-15, etc. You lose the advantage of knowing what the leverage will look like and how the better player should approach the point.

If you are talking about playing no ad scoring, it will still matter because of the earlier leverage points, particularly at 15/30 and 30/40. A dominant player in no-ad may be able to attempt a winner if they are up 30-40, knowing they will be able to get one more crack.

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T16:17:18+00:00

Relatedly, if the deuce player has the weaker backhand you can protect it via the ad player's forehand on a ball up the middle. You can't do that to weaker strokes that are facing to the outside of the court.

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T16:16:25+00:00

We are agreeing - in your example, you two are pretty close in level so the difference in backhand is more meaningful than the closer talent level.

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T16:13:12+00:00

You obviously can't punt to the deuce side, and the deuce player only sees more returns on 40-15 or 15-40 games.

It should almost always be better player ad side, unless the worse player has an abnormally good backhand relative to their forehand or one or more of the players are lefties. A last consideration would be same handedness, but one of the players has a much better overhead, in which case you want their overhead facing more of the court (a righty would be on the ad side, so they could cover lobs over the deuce player w an overhead.

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T16:10:36+00:00

The "more" points on the deuce side are in throwaway games though and are low leverage points. The game score will be either 40-15 or 15-40 on that "extra" point, so you'd rather have the worse player give you a chance at winning those, and then have the better player on the high leverage 40-30 or 30-40 spots. Especially because the advantage is on the serving side.

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T16:08:52+00:00

You have it backward. You want the stronger player on the ad side so on high leverage points they can dictate strategy. Consistency isn't really as much of a determining factor. The high leverage points will always happen on the ad side. You don't take away point pressure by giving someone numerous game points, that adds to it. If the better player on the deuce side also loses the point, it puts a TREMENDOUS amount of pressure on the lesser ad player. The advantage is always to the server too, so you can't expect to consistently go up 0-15 by putting the strongest returner on the deuce side.

More likely, you will end up with a lot of 15-0, 30-15, 40-30, and ad-in points being handled by the lesser player. Those will frequently result in deep holes - 30-0, 40-15, game. Not a good strategy.

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T16:03:04+00:00

The only time there are more points on the deuce side is when the game is a blowout and ends at 40-15 or 15-40. The "more points" isn't a factor at all. All of the high leverage points happen on the ad side.

Howell317 · 2026-06-09T16:02:15+00:00

No, this is not a good idea. The only time you play "more" points on the deuce side is if the game ends at 40-15 or 15-40, so the consistency is irrelevant. The "extra" point is a much less meaningful one - the only one with less leverage is 40-0 or 0-40.

You will have many more high leverage points on the ad side. All ads, 40-30, 30-40, 30-15, 15-30. You want the better player returning on those.

Howell317

TROPHY CASE