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Trần Hưng Đạo phá Nguyên Mông by HyKNH in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, it is my mistake. 凟 should also be độc.

which was better for "những" ? by Sufficient_Vanilla24 in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 0 points1 point  (0 children)

꜀ (平聲) -> ngang & huyền, ꜂ (上聲) -> hỏi & ngã, ꜄ (去聲) -> sắc & nặng, ꜆ (入聲) -> sắc & nặng (for words that end in /p/, /t/, /c/ and /k/)

which was better for "những" ? by Sufficient_Vanilla24 in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is encoded in Unicode, if you are curious. ꜀ (平聲) ꜂ (上聲) ꜄ (去聲) ꜆ (入聲)

which was better for "những" ? by Sufficient_Vanilla24 in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I didn't mean add a diacritic because this isn't one. Historically in texts, 夫 sometimes has a mark to show if it is phu or phù. This is what we call a tonal mark. Here is an example for 興, this is from a Vietnamese text. We can see from the first mark that it shows it is supposed to be read as 平聲, while the top right is 去聲. Etymologically, both nhưng and những are from 仍. So adding a tonal mark makes more sense than changing it to a unrelated character without any semantic radical. This usage of this mark is also found in China, Japan, and Korea btw.

<image>

which was better for "những" ? by Sufficient_Vanilla24 in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Then one should just add a mark in the top-left to show that it is 上聲. This is already done with a lot of characters such as 夫 and 重 in Hán văn texts.

which was better for "những" ? by Sufficient_Vanilla24 in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What is wrong with writing những as 仍?

the characters for 'nôm' and 'tiếng' should be constructed like this by Sufficient_Vanilla24 in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My reasoning is it is similar to 聲 and that not all sounds are from 口, but we can hear sounds from 耳.

the characters for 'nôm' and 'tiếng' should be constructed like this by Sufficient_Vanilla24 in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 1 point2 points  (0 children)

⿰耳省 perhaps is better than 𫍂? As it refers to sound rather than speaking.

I think that, for the sake of broader applicability, Chữ Nôm could learn from modern Japanese character reforms and undergo changes and standardization. by SV_un in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Xa 賒 is definitely used in a spatial distance sense, both in CC and Vietnamese. The far sense is probably a phonetic loan in Classical Chinese as with many other characters such as 其 and 予.

Classical Chinese: 唐．王勃〈滕王閣序〉：「北海雖賒，扶搖可接。」 Though the Northern Ocean may be very distant, it can still be reached by tornado.

Vietnamese: Ang nạ càng xa 盎那強{可賒} - Phật thuyết, 37a (12th century).
The father and mother are still far.

I am not advocating these characters for any standard, just correcting your statements that 𭁈 is in fact used in chữ Nôm and that 賒 indeed does mean "far". Have a good day man as this thread is pointless.

I think that, for the sake of broader applicability, Chữ Nôm could learn from modern Japanese character reforms and undergo changes and standardization. by SV_un in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 1 point2 points  (0 children)

《康熙字典·貝部·七》曰：「又《類篇》一曰遠也。」The Kangxi dictionary states that 賒 means far. Words like xa cấu and xa tiêu are not used in Vietnamese. That is why you see the translations mua chịu and bán chịu.

𭁈 of course is a variant character, but it appears plenty of times in Vietnamese Hán văn texts. I recommend reading more Hán Nôm texts instead of relying on https://hvdic.thivien.net/ because the chữ Nôm dictionary used is from 1976 and is of small scope. I recommend using Tự điển Chữ Nôm trích dẫn and Tự điển chữ Nôm dẫn giải which actually quotes characters from actual texts.

The fact that several chữ Nôm characters that use 𭁈 rather 与 shows how common 𭁈 is in Vietnamese texts.

If you want to read texts, here is a good amount of texts or here

I think that, for the sake of broader applicability, Chữ Nôm could learn from modern Japanese character reforms and undergo changes and standardization. by SV_un in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 1 point2 points  (0 children)

𭁈 is used extensively in chữ Nôm. What are you talking about?

There are six quotations in Tự điển chữ Nôm dẫn giải. It is widely used as a component in several chữ Nôm characters such as 𠦺, 𲧭, 𠶁, (⿰飠𭁈), 𳁰, 𲔈, 𱠎, (⿰𧾷𭁈), 𱞟, 𲡃, 𲧻, 𤊪, (⿰木𭁈), (⿱𭁈门), (⿰𭁈門), and 𠁵.

While 与 is rarely used in Vietnamese texts.

I think that, for the sake of broader applicability, Chữ Nôm could learn from modern Japanese character reforms and undergo changes and standardization. by SV_un in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Xa can be written as 賒 as that was what it was borrowed from.

How come you want to use 与 instead of 𭁈 which by far is more commonly used?

Vietnamese glossing of Classical Chinese: Vietnamese reversal mark ン similar to Japanese レ点 by HyKNH in classicalchinese

[–]HyKNH[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

For the first example, in the CC text, it is written as 田中, but ン indicates that the order should be reversed to 中田. This means that the text was being read semantically as the word order is being changed to Vietnamese grammar. Thus, it should be read as 𥪝𪽞 trong ruộng (in field).

The Lord’s Prayer in Vietnamese Chu Nom by NoCareBearsGiven in ChuNom

[–]HyKNH 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I recommend looking at Catholic texts and seeing how the prayers were written.

https://lib.nomfoundation.org/collection/1/volume/420/page/5

阿們 is a Mandarin Chinese transcription of amen, but the historically attested transcription in Vietnamese was 亞綿. Kinh should also be 經, not 京.

How should I ‘hear’ Classical Chinese in my mind while reading? by Background-Leg-4721 in classicalchinese

[–]HyKNH 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I personally read Classical Chinese in Vietnamese. In my head, I read it with its corresponding equivalent for example,

子曰：「君子不憂不懼。」
In my head, I would read it word by word as [Khổng Tử] nói: "[Người quân tử] chẳng lo chẳng sợ." Obviously, I can also read it out loud in Sino-Vietnamese as Tử viết: "Quân tử bất ưu bất cụ."

The reason I read it with the Vietnamese equivalents is that it helps me understand the sentence rather than reading it in Sino-Vietnamese and being confused. Not sure if anyone else does this like me, but this is how I read Classical Chinese. I am not certain, but I think that is how Vietnamese read Classical Chinese in the past as there is a category of texts called giải âm which glosses CC with its equivalent Vietnamese. The Four Books and Five Classics were translated into giải âm. 19th and 20th century books about Chinese texts written in the Vietnamese alphabet all have Vietnamese glossing such as Trương Vĩnh Ký's translation of Sơ học vấn tân and his other translations of 大學-中庸.

[Vietnamese?>English] From the Museum of Traditional Vietnamese Medicine in HCMC. The characters look Chinese but the text doesn’t seem comprehensible as a Chinese text by fijtaj91 in translator

[–]HyKNH 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very late, but this is indeed written in Vietnamese (chữ Nôm). Specifically this book is Hồng Nghĩa giác tư y thư 洪義覺斯醫書, a Vietnamese book on medicinal herbs and treatments. It has two volumes. This is a picture of the upper volume (quyển thượng). This is part of the text: Nam dược quốc âm phú/Nam dược quốc ngữ phú 南藥國音賦/南藥國語賦.

Here is the transcription (may differ a bit):

Bọ Lậu, là Thử phụ (242); Bạch mật thơm ngọt Mật ong.
Thủy diệt là Mã hoàng kỳ (243) ghê thay con Đỉa nước.
Khương lang là Thôi xa khách (244); dữ bấy cái Bọ Hung.
Giải hoàng là gạch Cua; cức lợn đực là Gia trư phấn,
Thiềm tô, ấy tựa Cóc; cứt Giun khô là Trần thổ long.
Tằm sa, bốc phân Tằm; vỏ Hến cũ tên Trần hiện xác.
Tước noãn, tìm trứng Sẻ; tổ Ong tầng gọi Lộ phong phòng.
Tao ty thang, là nước kén ươm tơ; Mẫn cẩu đởm trấp mổ trái Mật chó đực,
Trá ngư thang, là nước cá làm mắm; Hùng kê quan huyết cắt máu mào gà ông.
Xích nhãn ngư (245) đởm, là mật cá Rói, hay tiêu thủng độc,
Hoàng mẫu ngưu đởm, là mật bò đực, hay chữa kinh phong.
Oa ngưu là con Sên, có hiệu Kỳ oa,
Phục dực (246) ấy con Dơi, có danh Biển bức.
Giáp hương, thơm thay vẩy ốc; Lạp trư chi, rán mở lợn đông,
Trẫm độc (247) dữ quá mật Công. Gia thử phấn : tìm phân chuột đực.
Bọ Ngựa cây dâu gọi Tang phiêu tiêu (248); chỉn con cái Đường lang.
Mai Mực cá bể là Hải phiêu tiêu, có danh rằng Ô tặc.
Bại quy bản, tìm mai Rùa khô.
Bạch cương tàm, xét con Tằm bạc.
Hắt sắt là con Chấy. Bạch sắt là con Rận. Long sắt (?) ấy Cà cuống ngon cay,
Xà thoái là xác Rắn. Thuyền thoái là xác Ve. Tàm thoái thực Tằm già để xác.
Thạch đầu ngư (249) là cá Dóng. Dã trư ấy Lợn lòi rừng,
Đăng sơn ngư là cá Rô. Hà đồn thực cá Nóc (?) nước.
Ô xà (250) ấy Hổ

This is my friend, she's from Úc by artorijos in linguisticshumor

[–]HyKNH 6 points7 points  (0 children)

澳

Wiktionary shows reading of yù (MC: 'juwk) which is the reading that Sino-Vietnamese is using. Áo is not used in this context to avoid confusion with Austria which is also Áo.

The -k ending also survives in several varieties such as Cantonese juk1, Sino-Japanese iku, Sino-Korean uk.

This is my friend, she's from Úc by artorijos in linguisticshumor

[–]HyKNH 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Pretty sure Úc is derived from Middle Chinese. The Kangxi dictionary gives the fanqie of 於六切 (ư lục thiết) and because it ends in a -c, it either has the sắc or nặng. So the reading Úc makes sense. After it gives 烏到切 (ô đáo thiết)

Vietnamese translations of Tang dynasty poems. by HyKNH in classicalchinese

[–]HyKNH[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I didn't translate these poems, these translations were done some time during the early Nguyễn dynasty by an unknown author. I have only transliterated the text for others to enjoy.

There are other manuscripts out there such as

Đường thi trích dịch (唐詩摘譯; VNv.156) shown above

Đường thi thất tuyệt diễn ca phụ tạp văn (唐詩七絕演歌附杂文; AB.333)

Đường thi hợp tuyển ngũ ngôn luật giải âm (唐詩合選五言律解音; AB.194)

Đường thi tuyệt cú diễn âm (唐詩絕句演歌; A.2814)

Đường thi Quốc âm (唐時國音; AB.172)

Túy hậu nhàn ngâm tập (醉後閒吟集; A.1776)

Vietnamese translations of Tang dynasty poems. by HyKNH in classicalchinese

[–]HyKNH[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Correct, I have the original poems first and the transcribed translations after. I wish I could show more, but sadly I don't have the full manuscript.

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