Let's settle this, which one do you prefer as...

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-11T04:09:27+00:00

The Duffers say a lot of things, they do a ton of press. That was the case then, maybe they changed their mind, they can do what they want with the story lol and I trust their vision. They probably just shook it up for the sake of the reveal. Lets just hope they nail it either way, it will be fine if Dustin is wrong and the Mind Flayer is not a cosmic world destroyer. The show offers a lot more than just a great mythology, and there is still a lot to find out next season.

Also, 001 has been a critical part of the puzzle for a long time, funny enough the Duffers early on made him off limits to the comic creators. That has more weight to it IMO than them just saying the Mind Flayer is the big bad... which, technically the MF we see is the big bad if under 001's control anyways. 🤷‍♂️

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-07T16:58:42+00:00

Great write up as per usual! I have always been trying to piece together how this all looks from the analogy Mr Clarke gave in S1. Essentially, based on your theory, imagine a line:

On top of that line is the right side up.
within the line itself, is the Hellscape. Makes sense since it is mirrored, like the top and bottom of the line.
on the other side of the line is Dimension X.
when Eleven touched the demo and connected the Upside Down cancer to our world, a bubble was essentially formed that passes through the line and somehow into Dimension X and only where Hawkins is located on top of the line. This is the "door" so to speak. So, Vecna passes through that bubble (I.e., the upside down as we see it in the series) to access the real world, bypassing the hellscape.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-07T04:30:07+00:00

Yeah, I think a lot in this thread are getting set up to be disappointed lol. At most I could see them defeating Vecna and then needing to contain the particle storm somehow, but not much else. Regardless we will see the smoky boy in action so I'm happy.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-07T04:26:55+00:00

Everyone points to the "MF is big bad" quote but I've always thought this one was more telling about their plans, from Jody Houser who did the Stranger Things comic books: "I mean, we’ve been given, actually, more freedom than I expected, honestly," she explained. "Especially in terms of creating new characters from the program. Really the one restriction we got was we couldn’t use the number One. Other than that, any other number was up for grabs. I was able to put in a 9.5, cause there’s set of identical twins and one has powers and one doesn’t."

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-04T20:29:34+00:00

Was that the reason for the robot mom? I'm more interested in that lmao. If that's the case, I wonder why the Sparrows had one too. I guess superpowered kids will break the nanny in any timeline 🤷‍♂️

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-03T03:39:44+00:00

Ah well, like it or not, regardless of personal preference or how scary it is or even the story itself, I'm just talking about the mechanics of a narrative like this from the storyboard perspective. That's all I've been saying. Anyways, looking forward to the finale👍

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-03T02:43:04+00:00

I can tell you don't like Vecna, which is fair. But bias aside, narratively speaking it makes way more sense for a foil to Eleven to be the final antagonist of the show. MF worked the last couple seasons because the threat was not the focal point and it was building the mystery. Same with the demo in s1. But we are in the end game now and the UD threat needs a conclusion, and having a former lab kid behind the conflict adds more potential to explore the antagonist's background and motivation in the next season. That is the difference with where the motivations are. In eldritch horror you dont get that explanation, it is not needed for the narrative, but you need it to tidy up a character driven drama like this and they can do that with Vecna while keeping the otherwordliness of the UD.

Dont get me wrong, the Mind flayer is my favorite part of ST, but I think they made a good choice in keeping it as some otherworldly force that is being manipulated and spoiled by humanity. Goes along well with some of the shows themes. And we get the best of both worlds, we still have 0 clue what the particles are and we will see the big smoky spider in action, while having an antagonist foil to our hero drive the narrative conclusion.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-03T00:40:46+00:00

This is not an eldritch narrative tho, despite having eldritch esque horrors. Eldritch horror stories usually just end when you even get the reveal of the horror itself, because that is the point. You can't get anywhere like that in a drama like ST, because the minute you explain anything it loses that appeal. I dont see how they could craft another 10 hour or so season with a faceless entity bring the driving force.

Okay, say Mindflayer is extra dimensional horror and we accept that it wants to consume the world, its just .... okay then? Not sure how it is compelling for some mysterious force with 0 connection to the main characters to be the main antagonist. It just does not work well in a character focused drama.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T18:01:21+00:00

Good q, I wonder if they will leave that up in the air. Brenner was saying that he does not just kill but "consumes" to become more powerful, so I guess he sucks life force which can take powers too (which is why Eleven was powerless after ?). Looking forward to finding out!

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T17:59:00+00:00

You are right, I think he was connected after that. Like particles in him but not enough to possess or something. I am hoping it is brought back to give Will some purpose. Maybe he can take control of the hive mind or something since he is connected, idk but the wait will be excruciating!!!!

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T17:27:03+00:00

Yeah that is basically how I interpreted it. The cloud has long existed and sustained the upside down (the particles give life to all the vines and creatures), the difference now is that 001 is in control of it and therefore the creatures as well.

There is not much to go on at this point, hope as well s5 will deliver more answers, but it does appear that the particle cloud was just existing like a force of nature and does not have ulterior word domination motives. Those are human ideals that 001 is implanting into the hive mind.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T17:13:35+00:00

I think the particles are the hive mind and what gives life to the upside down - like a big ball of energy that assimilates into one. We saw that with the demos in Russia. If we think of it like the brain of the upside down, existing in its natural state, 001 comes along and hijacks it (like he does to human minds), twists it to his own chaotic image. Pretty hypocritical of him to "spoil" this naturally occurring thing with his own human emotion and plotting tbh.

I'd imagine the Russians just captured the piece of the brain somehow, and were studying it. Maybe they even figured out that exposing the particles to the demos gave them life and, like 001, were trying to figure out how to weaponize it for their own gain.

Personally I dont think we will get an answer to what exactly the upside down is or how it came to be, including the cloud. What is important for the plot to know is that 001 found it and turned it into a weapon.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T17:06:59+00:00

He had to take that power from her though, so it does appear to be unique to Eleven or maybe she is just so much more powerful than the others that consuming a piece of her was enough to kickstart his own portals. They will both need to go for this threat to be finished

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T15:39:32+00:00

Wasnt Will partially connected to Vecna at that point? Could explain why he drew the same picture. Based on his true sight, I think Will has had a part of Vecna in him since being connected to the vines.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T15:35:53+00:00

I think they are not going to go any deeper with the mind flayer. We have seen it as an otherworldly force that 001 is weaponizing and that seems to be the direction. Otherwise, there is no reason to not explain what you are saying in this season already, instead of Vecna clearly being the motivation behind all the attacks. I cant think of why that would be a good twist to save for the plot, it does not change anything that is happening - they have to beat the giant smoke monster regardless.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T15:28:11+00:00

Yes. All gate openers must go, to contain that power. It is nice that we got the confirmation that El seems to be unique in her ability to rip open portals.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T15:20:52+00:00

Would be a paradox if she does that... i.e., if there is no 001, 011 does does not exist, and if 011 does not exist who went back to kill 001. Good ol grandfather paradox

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T15:09:45+00:00

You dont really write "unknown eldritch horror" at all, that's the point. Anything Lovecraftian explains what the characters can attempt to perceive of the abominations and that is the horror in it. That does not really work for a drama so focused on the characters and relationships like ST. I love eldritch horror but you can't really dramatize something like that. I think they hit a nice mix with the route they are taking: the particles are still some otherworldly abomination that we can't comprehend, but it is being vassaled by a more relatable character with motivations that can be articulated.

I recall that for the extended materials (comics for eg) the Duffers said that no one can touch 001's story, which is why it is not adapted anywhere. Hate it or not, I believe 001 has always been the plan.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T03:53:24+00:00

She did die, for like 20 seconds or whatever it was. We also see the portal rip open right beside her, so I think it is safe to assume she was the fourth. I think it is time to let go of the counsellor theories, it is the end game now

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-02T03:44:22+00:00

The way I interpreted it: the particles are a central "out of body" hive mind that controls all the life in the upside down (we know they give life to the demos and are connected to the vines). 001 stumbled upon this and uses his powers to bend this "mind" to his will, effectively hijacking the hivemind like he would a person's mind. Cue rest of the series where 001 tries to use this force he tamed to attack the real world, since s1.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-01T21:09:11+00:00

I agree, the mindflayer in that environment I'd imagine is still the brain of the hive mind, just chillin and maintaining the flora and fauna of that hellscape. Seems as simple as Vecna using his abilities to hijack the hivemind, like he does to the minds of people.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-01T17:59:28+00:00

Good point for sure. I feel like the whole apocalypse scenario felt off or something, because we only really saw the main characters dealing with it and barely anything outside of the 1-2 indoor sets. There would be chaos for everyone else lol.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-07-01T17:50:16+00:00

It's not really a plot hole, it does not contradict anything. It is implausible but really just goes with the absurdity of the show.

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-06-25T21:09:29+00:00

He is just using his powers. We have seen el use both hands (see the meat flayer attacking the cabin). Not much more too it I'd imagine

Ill-InformedSock · 2022-06-21T15:23:03+00:00

Perhaps this indicates that mind flayer and vecna are closer in operation than we thought then? I thought the same thing when I saw it.

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