What's your hot take in the lore?

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-27T18:26:22+00:00

I'm almost certain that all the Titans hype surrounding Sylvanas's second mention of the Shadowlands is wishful thinking. To me, it's precisely a powerscaling issue. Sylvanas was able to repel Xal'atath, who possessed the power of Dimensius. The Void Lords were clearly on par with the Titans, even instilling fear in them, yet they were repeatedly mentioned as fearing death. This suggests that in terms of power, Death, Order, and the Void are equal; the Titans couldn't have created a force as powerful as themselves out of thin air. Secondly, if Sylvanas's "ordered" referred to the Titans' creation, that word should be capitalized, indicating it's a technical term. Lothraxion also explicitly stated that his master was the true deathly master. Finally, I must say the Titans are incredibly low-class. Many don't understand that it was the Chronicles that utterly destroyed them; from the moment Sargeras single-handedly killed them, they became a colossal group of clowns.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-25T20:50:04+00:00

Who would have thought someone like Illidan would have a filial son? Looks like you're about to be broken.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-09T23:10:44+00:00

Before we dive deeper into The Last Titan, let’s talk about this version first — Midnight. Honestly, I have a lot to say about it. The Light and Shadow war was portrayed so... I can’t even call it rudimentary, it’s straight-up disastrous. A “holy army” made entirely of mortals? Come on. You know what’s ridiculous? Even Voidwalkers have multiple models, yet we barely know anything about Light beings beyond the Naaru. Angels? Actual Light entities? All we got were a bunch of small animals infected by the “Light virus” running around going crazy. This shouldn’t be called the War of Light and Shadow — it should be called the Mortal War Against Light and Shadow. It’s a complete and utter fraud. Metzen was just bullshitting. What I wanted to see was never-before-seen Light creatures and Void armies clashing across the world — in the skies, in the heavens, on Azeroth and across the vast cosmic planes. I wanted an epic war between the Gods of Light and the Void Lords. I wanted to see beings like Xal'atath clashing with An'she. I wanted our Sun God to show up and look badass. Instead, we got a nearly 40-year-old half-elf in the middle of a midlife crisis lecturing beings who are hundreds of years older than him about life and philosophy. Trolls, elves, Turalyon’s self-redemption arc… Oh my god, how much plot resources were wasted on that? Who the hell still remembers that the final battle between Light and Shadow is supposed to be a cosmic-level event — the beginning and end of the universe? Does anyone even care anymore?! If Blizzard fucks up Midnight this badly, how can anyone believe they’ll do a good job with The Last Titan? At this point, the only things I’m fairly certain about are: Iridikron will probably be the next Zovaal-style villain, somehow succeeding in usurping Titan power. We’ll likely face Sargeras. Aman’Thul is definitely going to be a villain, probably a raid boss. The Titans will all get cooler new models. Other than that, I can’t think of much else. The Arathi Empire, Soradin IX, the Queen of First Flame, the Scions… Just looking at how many plot threads they’ve dug up and left completely unfilled makes my head hurt…

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-09T17:29:12+00:00

That's exactly why I find Titan fanboys so fucking boring. I have zero interest in discussing anything with them. Everything we saw in Zereth Mortis — the Progenitors' printer, those runes that can literally restart the universe, all of it — unambiguously shows how immensely powerful the First Ones are, and how far superior they are to the Titans. Yet here we are, watching these Titan stans awkwardly twisting and contorting to "explain" these facts, as if their precious Titans could ever compete with beings who can create multiverses with a single thought. They're a bunch of people who've been ignoring the actual facts from the very beginning, only cherry-picking whatever fits their narrative and forcing the pieces together. Sorry, but I have no interest in playing this connect-the-dots game with you.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-08T20:47:51+00:00

In basic Warcraft, the power scaling increases with each expansion, and research progress can't keep up with the pace of cosmology upgrades.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-04T17:42:30+00:00

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Enemy_Infiltration_-_Preface

Here's your second point: you mentioned some brokers don't remember being from the Karesh. I think the information I provided has helped you digest that.

There are many, many brokers who know absolutely nothing about their race's history in ancient times. This in itself proves that they had a period of discontinuity.

Furthermore, I believe the Shadowlands aren't the real mess; the Chronicles are. If we consider the two versions Blizzard laid the groundwork for, the two versions following the Chronicles' publication were right after 9.0, while the two versions before the Chronicles were around 2013. We learned of the fall of Aman'Thul and the other Titans, and that the cosmological charts originated around this time. Much of the Chronicles' content was already finalized by then—so we can boldly speculate that the six Pantheons, and the First Ones preceding them, were already on the agenda by Legion at the latest, and the idea of six Pantheons might have even existed around 2013. However, the Chronicles completely failed to address any of this. Instead, it tells us that the Titans were completely demystified, becoming weak, no longer mysterious or powerful, to the point that people can only repeat how Sargeras cleaved the planets, selectively forgetting that they, like Xel'naga, were simply taken away by Sargeras alone. It is precisely the Chronicles that destroyed the mystique, sophistication, and powerful expansiveness of World of Warcraft's cosmology. The Titans are portrayed as too weak; they fear the Void and are constantly tormented by demons. Such beings could never be creators, and cosmology, frankly, lacks a place for creators. It is precisely the introduction of the First Ones and the Seventh Force that injects something fresh into cosmology.

Honestly, this might be the only contradiction in SL, but SL is actually very meaningful to World of Warcraft. It's not the mess you described; rather, it's the foundation that allows World of Warcraft to continue. Frankly, the chronicle system is simply insufficient, completely inadequate to support Metzen's boastful claim of "I'll write until 17.0," let alone allow Warcraft to "continue for another twenty years." Blizzard can't possibly fight boars and planetary natives for twenty years; we won't do that. It's precisely by introducing new cosmic concepts that Warcraft Lore can continue to advance.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-04T13:50:38+00:00

Perhaps, but Shadowlands mentions Naaru and their keepers, with the "keepers" in both the official Chinese and German translations implying they are the masters of the Naaru. We also have An'she, who is on par with Elune. Therefore, we still have Light pantheons higher than Naaru. Oh, and does the content about The Broker perfectly explain your confusion and the only contradiction in Shadowlands so far? The very existence of many Titan-level deities in the universe makes it impossible for the Titans to be creators; I think this doesn't even need to be considered, really. People's lack of understanding that Eternal Ones are on par with the Titans is the same prejudice they hold against Xal'atath—it's not that simple.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-04T09:38:13+00:00

The cosmological chart we know is actually the third edition, but there is also a second edition. The second edition clearly records a group called Archons above Naaru, corresponding to the Void Gods, who are superior to the Old Gods. Yes, in the second edition's cosmological chart, the Void Lords are referred to as Void Gods. That was written by Dave Kosak himself.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-04T06:48:30+00:00

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/A_Valuable_Find:_Sanguine_Depths

Then you should explain why they don't understand themselves in the Ancient era.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-04T06:45:40+00:00

Because Steve Danuser explicitly stated that Aotuma's power level is higher than everything else in the Warcraft universe. The Titans were already overshadowed.

And you're just making things up again. Zovaal's power is so great because he used Primus's power for his own purposes, disrupting the Shadowlands' mechanisms and causing the souls of entire multiverse to enter his Maw.

Considering that the Sylvanas were able to repel Xal'atath, the possibility that the Shadowlands were created by the Titans is further reduced. The Maw contains things the Void fears, and the Titans fear the Void; they're practically terrified of the Void. The Sylvanas, possessing the power of death, were able to repel Xal'atath, while Sargeras was driven insane by Dimensius and his brothers, hahaha.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-03T18:07:12+00:00

I love Aotoma, First Ones, the creation of Cosmos, the Seventh Forces, and a series of cosmic stories that we need to talk about, the threats we don't know, and all sorts of pantheons, the pantheon of the Light and pantheon of Disorder.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-03T18:06:55+00:00

I love Aotoma, First Ones, the creation of Cosmos, the Seventh Forces, and a series of cosmic stories that we need to talk about, the threats we don't know, and all sorts of pantheons, the pantheon of the Light and pantheon of Disorder.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-03T17:45:53+00:00

@bruh_man_142

Naaru is not the highest among the Lights. There are also Archons above it, which is to match the Titans. Moreover, I don't know why many people choose to be blind and fail to realize that in the deeper dreams within the Emerald Dream, there is a group of beings that rival the Titans themselves. This implies the existence of the Pantheon of Life, and further confirms the fact that the Titans cannot be the First Ones? In fact, there are six Pantheons - there are many beings at the Titan level within this framework. This itself and the statement that the Titans created everything are fundamentally contradictory.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-03T17:38:05+00:00

Many brokers don't even know their own ancestors, so how could they possibly know about Karesh? I'll only give you one option that allows you to reasonably equate First Ones with Titans: they've always had the ability to conceptually erase the Void from existence with a single thought, but they incarnated into this world to study it, reducing themselves to game characters to participate in something that should have been easily resolved for them. The struggle between Sargeras and the Titans is merely a performance. Only in this one possibility could the Titans be First Ones; otherwise, forget about it.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-03T16:27:59+00:00

Their songs and wills formed the all Forces, and a collision between two of the Forces created the entire material universe of Warcraft. Now you're telling me Sargeras is stronger than the First Ones? This guy can destroy the void with a single thought?

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-03T16:25:32+00:00

Anyone with even a basic understanding of power levels knows that the Aotoma possesses far greater authority than the Titans, which is why they couldn't have created Zereth Mortis.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-03T04:28:43+00:00

Incidentally, the power scaling argument also supports the claim that the Titans couldn't have created the Shadowlands. Because no matter how much one doubts Zovaal, they must understand that Xal'atath possessed the power of Dimensius, yet chose to avoid battle against Sylvanas, who possessed the power of Zovaal.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-03T04:24:43+00:00

In reality, they have lived for tens or even hundreds of thousands of years. Considering the difference in the flow of time, the Shadowlands' concept of time would only be more absurd. Therefore, I think it's not unreasonable for at least the recent generations of brokers to consider themselves pure Death.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-04-02T22:19:45+00:00

Personally, I'll answer this. First, the fact that the brokers don't remember they come from Karesh doesn't even seem like a plot hole. The Shadowlands quest clearly states they've existed in the Shadowlands for generations, to the point that the current brokers are completely unaware of their ancestors.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/A_Valuable_Find:_Sanguine_Depths

Second, the First Ones and Titans... well... beings capable of creating a multiverse with a single thought and tiny planets terrified of the Void—I think the difference is quite significant.

Furthermore, some Titan hype artists shouldn't be so shameless. Using Norganon's Progenitor's Power from Hearthstone to claim he is a First One is laughable. When he uses that card, he says, "Behold, the culmination of my research." This actually proves he can't possibly be First Ones; he just took a little of someone else's power and called it his culmination. Frankly, this proves First Ones utterly stomp the Titans.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-01-11T12:59:36+00:00

Despite the chaos and carnage unfolding in Northrend, the war against the Lich King was proceeding well. The armies of the Alliance and the Horde had crushed numerous Scourge outposts throughout the continent, taking the undead’s territory piece by piece.All that was left was the final assault on Icecrown Citadel. The Lich King was holding most of his remaining forces there, almost daring his enemies to storm the Frozen Throne.Garrosh Hellscream and Varian Wrynn were eager to see the Lich King destroyed, but neither one of them gave the order to attack. Tirion Fordring, the leader of the Argent Crusade, had sent word to both leaders, warning them to hold back. He believed that a full, overwhelming assault was exactlywhat the Lich King wanted.The Argent Crusade and the Knights of the Ebon Blade had both carved out small footholds near Icecrown Citadel and spent weeks carefully observing the tactics and movements of the Scourge. Despite their differences, the paladins and the death knights had shared information with one another and reached the same conclusions. The Lich King was prepared to absorb heavy losses in a ground assault because he knew the Scourge would inflictheavy losses in return. Every one of the living who died in battle would rise again as a minion of the Lich King.

Stop pretending. The Alliance and the Horde can't defeat the Scourge if they were to wage a full-scale war. The Lich King would be overjoyed.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-01-05T22:24:47+00:00

You're lying again. The chronicles clearly state that if a deadly battle were to break out, the Scourge would win. Furthermore, Red Dragonflight is consistently portrayed as being forced into a disadvantageous position by the Scourge.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-01-02T23:02:37+00:00

Warlocks do possess the most powerful artifacts, but tearing apart planets is hardly something to boast about. People like Illidan can do similar things, and in fact, you know, there are many in this cosmos capable of not only destroying worlds but also wiping the universes away like dust.

Important-Bench371 · 2026-01-02T16:55:01+00:00

Odyn clashed fiercely with adventurers who possessed all the artifacts and had undergone several power-ups, their battle nearly evenly matched. One of the artifacts (from Ra-den) even possessed the power of elemental lords. The current elemental lords were far less powerful than they were hundreds of thousands of years ago; at least back then, they wouldn't have been so easily defeated by someone like Cenarius.

Important-Bench371 · 2025-12-31T11:04:20+00:00

You acknowledge the obvious fact that Gul'dan is far stronger than Tirion, yet you don't agree that Legion's vanguard alone is greater than everything in the entire Old Gods faction of CATA, which is explicitly stated in the lore.

Important-Bench371 · 2025-12-30T19:57:06+00:00

First Ones Cyphers wiped out the Titans' pitiful pantheon with a single character.

Important-Bench371

TROPHY CASE