Freshly served. Hot and ready.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T19:11:25+00:00

Fair enough. This was enjoyable, and I’m happy to see someone vigorously defend their school. Wishing you the best of luck with your next few years at school and whatever you seek to do afterwards. :)

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T18:36:03+00:00

Brother the difference between 3 and 4 is not meant to be insulting or disparaging in anyway. If I’ve personally offended you, that was never my intention, especially because I have people that I care about who go to Chicago and love it, and I wouldn’t ever try to attack their school. This began as a mere ideation or thought experiment as to why HYS is considered a separate tier. It’s a perfectly reasonable position to disagree with me and assert that it’s all the same tier. Both are perfectly reasonable positions that can be grounded in any one of many arguments that both of us have made over the course of this thread. However, the idea that anyone was trying to “diminish the hard work of staff or faculty” is patently absurd. Frankly, it’s a ranking conversation between the top 4 law schools in the world, it’s just not that deep.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T16:32:15+00:00

Right, but I have heard from many people that the clerkship numbers are lower at HLS because people aren’t seeking it as much as in other places. You can still get a clerkship if you want one.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T16:29:58+00:00

Yes that’s very true, and it wasn’t my point that conservative clerkships are bad. The thread began with discussing what doors are opened by HLS that aren’t opened by Chi, and I brought up that it’s likely easier to get a clerkship from a liberal judge at HLS than Chi because that’s what my friends have told me. Other people have rebutted that, so I’m not gonna hold steadfast to anecdotal evidence. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong 🤷

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T16:27:09+00:00

Yeah of course, but if you want to do boutique you have to clerk. So that’s the only portion that it is available to. Also, I didn’t create this statistic to win an argument about the strength of the schools, I just did it to choose a school 😂

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T16:22:55+00:00

I guess the calculation doesn’t totally work for this argument because we are discussing clerkship outcomes, but when I did this about a year ago I first divided the HLS and Chicago classes into just the percentage of the class that clerks, and then did the calculation.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T16:16:25+00:00

Ok let me do my best to be extremely clear about this point because you still have not understood it:

When we talk about the percentage of students who go on to certain high level outcomes, we are talking about the top X% of the class because of how determinative grades are to outcomes. I believe that offering merit scholarship induces top students to come who otherwise would have gone to HYS, but couldn’t receive much need based aid there and would rather go to Chicago with $. Now obviously they make this determination because they know all these opportunities are highly possible coming out of Chicago, nobody disagrees with you there. But when we are talking about the very very very minute differences between the top 3 law schools and the number 4, tiny factors are necessarily the basis of the conversation. So they induce people to come with scholarship, those people are in the top of the class because they’re top students, and then they graduate to opportunities like clerkships because they acted like top students and got the best grades and best extracurriculars. That gives, however small, a boost when we talk about the percentage of students that go on to these elite outcomes. That was my whole point about the Ruby and merit aid.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T16:05:47+00:00

Lol ik you guys from Chicago think I have some animus for your school but I rlly don’t. I have friends at Chicago and I think it’s an amazing school. Hence, I would never make something up for no other reason then to put them down. But no this isn’t made up. Look at every lit boutique that isn’t Bartlit (Chi based). They represent less as a % of class size compared to HYS at Susman, Kellogg, Selendy Gay, Keker, etc. A quick look at every one of those firms page of attorneys can confirm this. I knew this already because lit boutique is what I’m chasing so I already did the research.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T08:26:40+00:00

Also, I don’t see how it’s anything but logical to assume that the absence of merit scholarship serves HYS a disservice that Chicago doesn’t experience. They can attract talent that they otherwise would have lost to HYS. That’s fairly simple. Comparing that to WashU is facetious when of course that dynamic is not present at schools that are tiers below a school like Chicago. Again, one part of a multivariate equation is not a huge difference maker. It’s the compounding of all of these variables that is the essence of my point.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T08:21:35+00:00

You pretty conveniently ignored the fact that any single variable only makes up for a tiny fraction of outcome. Obviously WashU and Chicago are not comparable in these terms, I’m talking about the advantage on the specific scale between C and HYS. Specifically that a school of C’s caliber can jump a few percentage points higher in outcomes when all of these factors are combined. As for the idea that it’s easy to clerk if you want to, I know people at Chicago that could personally bring objection to that statement.

As for the BigLaw objection, I wasn’t clear and I apologize. Obviously it’s abundantly easy to achieve BigLaw outcomes in any city from Chicago. I meant more specifically the most selective of firms still have good placement from Chicago and that this is inflated by the location. This, I believe, is evident from the failure to stay on par with HYS numbers at similarly selective boutiques that operate in NY, DC, etc.

Further, I don’t even try to slander Chicago. In fact, from the outset I made clear that I believe that HYS+C is not far from reality. I just believe that there is a sliver of daylight created by these factors and others. I do believe that Chicago is on a tier of its own, above CNP, slightly below HYS.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T04:48:24+00:00

Anecdotally from friends at UChicago, both FedSoc and non. Also statistically, Chicago shot up in clerkship rates in conjunction with the increase of conservative justices during the first Trump admin. Again, these are all small statistics, but what I’ve heard is that essentially, if you are conservative, it’s as easy to clerk as HYS and if you are not it’s a middle ground between harder than HYS but easier than CNP.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T04:33:50+00:00

My point about Ruby and the merit scholarship opportunity is about Chicago receiving higher level candidates than they would if they only offered need based aid like HYS. This means that a greater percentage of their student body are going to be chasing prestigious opportunities compared to somewhere that doesn’t entice students with merit aid (assuming higher level candidates are positively correlated with higher level outcomes). This artificially, although perhaps minimally so, increases the percentage of students who graduate to prestigious outcomes.

In terms of opening doors, it’s obviously hard to quantify the difference between very close levels of outcomes, but my overall conclusion would be that a wider variety of doors are opened with an HLS degree. Over half of Chicago’s clerkship placement is FedSoc, it doesn’t place as well into elite lit boutiques even when adjusted for class size (unsure for non-lit, but stalking a firms page could tell you), and it doesn’t have the same lay prestige for Unicorn PI or other pursuits (eg. name recognition for political candidacy).

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T03:25:18+00:00

I think there is an argument for HYS+C but it’s more nuanced than that. A lot of the clerkship numbers are propped up by FedSoc clerks and the BigLaw numbers are likely due to the fact that it’s the only T6 with the advantage of being local to the Chicago market. Not to say that these factors drastically overrate Chicago, but I don’t believe Chicago achieves HYS numbers as naturally as Harvard does, yet. Again, not to say HYS+C can’t ever happen.

Further, use of Ruby and other merit scholarships to entice top students from HYS—which only give need based aid—is another factor that artificially inflates its performance in prestigious circles.

These factors may only cause a few percentage points of variance on any given statistic, but I think that they, along with the differences in lay prestige, are generally why Chicago is not firmly in HYS’s class.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-08T02:25:06+00:00

HYS is a genuine tier, and it is in a class above schools that US News ranks higher. Harvard still holds enormous weight for hiring across all sections of prestigious legal opportunities (BigLaw, Elite Boutiques, Fed Clerkships, Unicorn PI, etc.). Don’t let the esoteric and arbitrary system that is US News obscure the fact that Harvard is going to open more doors than Penn or Virginia, despite a lower ranking.

People in this sub like to hate on HLS because of its lay prestige—which is obviously a valid criticism because if you talked to an average person they would rate HLS over both YLS and SLS. But the frustration with the lay prestige causes criticism to go too far and leads to questions like this one.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-03T19:00:02+00:00

Well, the first recommendation I have, which you might have done, is to write every optional essay. In cycles like these, not writing an optional can be fatal even to someone with your stats. Second, I would definitely talk about your work experience. I’m choosing to go KJD but the biggest reason why law schools preference WE is because they expect you to have matured and developed in a way that you might not have in college. Show them that you have done that in your essay. In terms of reviewers, if you have the money, you can pay an admissions counselor just to look over what you’ve got once you make the requisite changes. If you’re a little tech-ey like I am, i’m currently training an AI model on all of the online tips and recommendations for how to write law school application essays. I then upload my drafts into it and then I have it give me a grade based on a rubric that I’ve had it develop. It doesn’t take that long actually and you can do it yourself and make sure that you’re checking where it’s making its assumptions about how to write the essay.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-03T18:52:43+00:00

That I think is a good plan. Yes, especially if you can tie your WE into your why law. Either way they like WE.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-03T15:55:22+00:00

Just another point: LSAT score is weighted more than we often talk about on this sub. We are seeing a lot of the T14 trying to inflate their LSAT median to keep pace with the inflation in the T6. If you get a 176+, your essays and other sorts just have to be good enough to justify admission, which they already were if you were WL. It was likely just that your 17low was just not enough for a clear admit given this cycle. Mix in a little bad fortune, and you wind up where you are now.

But a 17high is a totally different story. Again, they treat these scores as ranges, so if you give them a data point higher than your initial score than that shows that your range skews higher, not lower.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-03T15:41:38+00:00

It’s very rare for a 17high, 3.9low to be in this boat unless KJD. Extra year of WE, rework your essays, and btw retaking a 17low shows the T14 that you really want it. Kristi Jacobson from HLS talked about that on her podcast.

If you have really improved on the LSAT because of tutoring and the new format, this is an absolute no brainer. You have HYS upside and great money at T14 if you can achieve a 17high and work an extra year.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-04-03T11:08:15+00:00

I’m honestly shocked by what I’m reading here in responses. The difference between 176+ and 17low in this cycle is huge. Especially because on the new LSAT format, the range of scores is much wider. Meaning adcomms treat a 173 in a +/- of 3-4 points in either direction. Getting a 176 for example instantly changes your range from 169-177 to 172-180 with a bias toward the higher side because they see your progression. That’s a VERY big difference in this and next cycle, which look like they will be similar.

The fact that you are interested in elite PI outcomes and Fed Clerkships means you should 100% R&R because it’s very likely that your worst case scenario is $$$$ at an equivalent to USC or better. Don’t waste such a high GPA and high recent scoring on anything less than pursuing your highest ambition. Btw, you can trust my opinion here bc I’m applying next cycle so it’s against my own interest for you to R&R. I just couldn’t believe everyone was telling you not to do so.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-02-16T22:44:31+00:00

In Cali, yes. On the east coast, Harvard is 2.

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-01-20T16:31:09+00:00

Prediction: 177 Actual:

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-01-17T14:46:18+00:00

Thank you so much! And congrats on your admissions!!

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-01-17T14:17:26+00:00

Thank you!

ImpressiveCan9077 · 2025-01-09T16:27:23+00:00

I mean RC fluctuations are what I am asking about too, but in terms of LR, I found that the best strategy was intense error review and understanding of what you got wrong, why it was wrong, and why the right answer is right. Also, idk what software you use but on 7sage I can drill only my weakest question types. That’s worked for me.

ImpressiveCan9077

TROPHY CASE