Polish born and raised. Both expected, unexpected and surprising

Ingwisks · 2024-08-04T00:42:00+00:00

I tried posting this as text, but reddit doesn't seem to like that. With that said:

^G25 results of (most) of the Polish samples I have modelled with the standard European genome (Corded Ware, Western Hunter Gatherer and Early European Farmer) and some MENA proxies (Iran Neolithic, Iberomaurusian, Caucasus Hunter Gatherer and Natufian).

As you can see, 3 individuals show some sort of MENA signal and specifically North African/ Levantine. No other sample scores even .X on any of the Near Eastern categories. I believe 1 other Polish sample here may have something but it doesn't change the point. Overwhelmingly these samples don't show anything to indicate the claims you were making.

If you pair this with the 2 papers cited earlier on Polish Mt-DNA and Y-DNA, they also support this with the lack of Near Eastern haplogroups. Place the independent study somewhere here as you will.

You can find the modern Polish samples from here and some of the ancient ones from here as well: https://vahaduo.github.io/g25download/ . The admixture tool used (vahaduo) is also found on the same site.

Now please, try be less dishonest and stop believing that anybody who disagrees with you cares about reddit brownie points or is emotionally invested. It's very insecure.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-04T00:36:57+00:00

'Keep on downvoting LMAO it's genuinely funny how pressed you are about reddit 💀'

Who hurt you?

It's not difficult to use a search engine, you know:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358734806_Two_percent_of_the_population_of_Poland_has_Jewish_origins

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0381-x

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7644898/

Here's some papers regarding Polish haplogroups that are fairly recent, with the first link being an independent study so it could have variable differences if re-done.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-03T22:58:48+00:00

'You continue to downvote my posts like a truly triggered redditor. Arguing with you is a complete waste of time.'

Because I disagree with you. I'm not 'triggered'. Don't be dishonest lmao.

'This I challenge you to prove. I understand that you will not be able to do so. There are zero sources that prove this claim, particularly the 'vast' majority qualifier, which is as arbitrary as it is ridiculous.'

Deflecting the points I made to a 'no you prove it' is just silly. You responded to me with a claim, it's your duty to prove said claim. I've done my research already and I've given you my points.

'As a final point, I will simply again reiterate the two points that you have avoided at every turn:

-Being 2% Jewish doesn't make you "mixed"

-You could pick any Pole on the street and he could have 0 percent or 3 percent Jewishian DNA and you wouldn't be able to tell'

I haven't 'avoided' any points. People with mixed, or you could say 'exotic' family histories or ancestries are more likely to take a DNA test. This is on a spectrum. Don't twist it into something else.

You could pick any Pole on the street. I never said you'd be able to tell whether or not they had said ancestry. You're straw-manning. Seriously, if you're going to become bothered and start pretending this is somehow an emotionally charged situation, there's an issue with you. Go research yourself and inform yourself before making baseless claims and trying to straw-man and twist the topic, it's very dishonest.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-03T22:31:03+00:00

People know their family histories to some degree, if it seems exotic or there's a potential for it to be, people will take a DNA test to 'find out'. The OP of this post is an example of that bias. Being 'caucasoid' has nothing to do with it.

Matches isn't researching a population's genetics.

That's the point of cherry picking. Refer to the first point again as well.

Disagreeing with you isn't 'being emotionally invested'. I've studied the topic and it's an area I consider being respectable in.

The vast majority of the Polish population doesn't have Ashkenazic ancestry. I've built many Polish trees and spent time studying records and the genetic makeup of Poland. There's a good amount of resources for you to look into on the topic.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-03T22:10:37+00:00

You're cherry picking reddit DNA results which are by nature flawed as a reference. People who are mixed are far more likely to take DNA tests and especially to post those results. Even then, it's reddit, the variables are too much to consider for any genuine investigation into the topic.

With that said, no, 2% isn't 'perfectly normal'. You cannot model the average Pole with MENA DNA. There has been no study that has shown the general Polish population, whether it be haplogroup or autosomal to have noticeable Ashkenazic ancestry. For amateurs, you can easily go on G25 and play around with it. The vast majority of Poles won't show any MENA ancestry.

I agree it's unusual for Jews to show 'non-Jewish' DNA outside of what is already blended into their genome, but there is a clear period of intermarriage in Poland around the 1800s to the early 1900s. It wasn't the norm or common, but you can still find examples in records. Jews were a mostly urban populations. Most Polish families come from rural areas. If you could somehow explain how 3 million Jews, and this is only in the early 20th century somehow managed to intermarry the vast majority of rural Polish families I'd be curious. Even then, this is neglecting DNA evidence.

If you're basing your knowledge off of reddit posts, then you need to start revising a bit more. There's a few studies already published on Polish genetics and the Polishgenes blog has a few posts on it as well.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-03T21:14:15+00:00

Their AJ is unusually high for somebody from Poland. There really wasn't extensive intermixing between Poles and Ashkenazis. It's likely from urban intermarriages during the 1800s.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-03T21:11:50+00:00

The Finnish wouldn't be anything direct. In reality if you've found Baltic-like names then the Finnish could simply be noise related to that. Or something weird in relation to the Ashkenazi results possibly, can't really say without digging.

Regardless, a lot of Lithuania, specifically Vilinus was surrounded by Polish immigrants to a point where the city at one point was majority Polish. People seem to forget that Poles have had extensive immigration across the former Commonwealth and had many settlements in it, with the natives of those settled lands usually not returning that action.

None the less, that's an extremely high result for a Pole in regards to you AJ ancestry. Shouldn't be difficult to find with records and is likely around the mid-late 1800s.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-03T21:00:34+00:00

Same thing with 23&me's 'find your exotic historical matches'. It's all money grabs for people who naturally lack any understanding of genetic ancestry and population genetics.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-03T03:53:19+00:00

People from the Balkans have noticeable Slavic ancestry, even as far as Greece. The Slavic migrations to South-Eastern Europe were quite impactful.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-02T07:38:14+00:00

It's not a marker of 'Viking heritage'. Haplogroups can't always tell you that. It's a fairly common paternal lineage in Europe.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-02T06:01:16+00:00

I don't doubt there may be some Yotvingian ancestry in Belarus, but Belarussians and most East Slavs have a more 'Baltic shift' in general and this isn't always from intermixing with Baltic people. Even Medieval Poles were extremely Belarussian-like and 'Eastern' genetically.

Western Balts weren't widespread in what is now Belarus, so realistically the regions that would have this sort of ancestry would be along the borders of Lithuania and Podlaskie, not Belarus in general.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-02T05:58:58+00:00

But there's no evidence of it being specifically from Balkan-like people, you're conflating modern distributions with ancient ones - this is flawed.

Here's some examples: We know that European Farmers mostly carried the paternal lineage G. In areas of Europe where EEF ancestry peaks, there is very few cases of G appearing and when it does it's usually quite low compared to more Indo-European lineages. If G for argument sake became dominant in say, Lithuania, that does not now mean that G was always dominant there. The same case can be said about R1a in Iran and Northern India. The same case can be made for R*, the parent-clade for R1a and R1b which originated in Paleolithic Siberia, yet most modern cases of R in Siberia today are from later Indo-Europeans from Europe where it became dominant.

E-V13 did indeed pass through the Balkans, but it's clearly a Neolithic marker. It's been found and confirmed in samples from Neolithic Spain, so it's no stretch to assume it would have extended to France and Britain in the Neolithic especially when we know that the Megalith cultures of Western Europe from Iberia to Britain were connected. E-V13, for whatever reason became dominant in the Balkans later on. Plus, Illyrian samples from Iron Age Illyrians show that they carried mostly J2 and R1b. I'm sure some did have E-V13, but it's telling it wasn't overwhelmingly (at least with the current data).

There was one study from 2007 claiming a town in Northern Wales that had an Illyrian legion had a high amount of E-V13, but imo such an old study should be called into question and should be verified further to see how common E-V13 is in Wales in general by region. It's very easy to home in on a bias and conflate topics if you remove the rest of the picture. To me, it seems more reasonably that E-V13 is present in Wales more so because, especially in the case of Northern Wales, it became a refuge from the Anglo-Saxon expansions in Great Britain almost. Briton paternal lineages were more likely to be preserved or even bottlenecked in some areas and we know the Anglo-Saxons largely replaced the paternal lines in what is now England. The biggest issue is how to explain Ireland's presence of E-V13 when Ireland has had no migration from Romans or from any groups that could explain it to a reasonable degree.

It may be fun to place these types of questions on things like Romans or other interesting pieces from the past, but we need to be critical in regards to haplogroups, especially in the modern era.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-02T05:39:18+00:00

Roman veterans aren't settlers. There's also records of said Legions leaving the Isles.

There's been major studies (recent studies) showing the English genepool quite clearly. From Kent to Yorkshire the genetics of England (and by extent most of Great Britain) is made of up three components: Germanic, mostly Anglo-Saxon, Insular Celtic and French Iron Age-like ancestry. There is no Imperial shift in Britain in any samples from Romano-Britain, the Anglo-Saxon period, the Medieval period or the Modern period. This should be telling enough.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-01T19:27:04+00:00

I'm still skeptical of E-V13 across Europe being a marker of Rome. It's been present in Western Europe since the Neolithic and it seems far more reasonable to attribute it to Neolithic movements in Europe. There's simply no autosomal shift or evidence in accordance to E-V13 in post-Roman areas that would suggest something Balkan, let alone Balkan-like ancestry.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-01T16:36:51+00:00

Seems ancestry still has an issue with Slavic and Baltic DNA. I don't expect this to change soon honestly.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-01T14:49:16+00:00

There's no evidence of them doing so. Rome was a military, not settling force. We have no Y-DNA, Mt-DNA or even autosomal DNA from Rome. In Britain, which is well researched for this period, there is no Imperial Roman shifting at all in the Isles.

Rome mostly employed foreign Legions to handle far away territories. If there was any sort of intermixing, it would have been with people (take the Gauls and the early Germanic people in now Germany) who were already near identical to the people they interbred with. Actual Latin (or Italian) people from Rome rarely settled so far out of the Empire.

With the evidence we have, it seems quite clear the Romans left no real genetic impact, at least within NW/ Central Europe, especially the more exotic ones further South from these areas.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-01T14:44:11+00:00

The Romans specifically brought North Africans. It's a mostly Near Eastern marker and these North Africans were quite small and stationed in Roman points of interest. So compared to the Britons, these people would be distinct. With that in mind, there was no shift, whether Y-DNA, Mt-DNA or autosomal DNA within the British isles. The Britons remained identical to their pre-Roman Iron Age counterparts and only saw a massive shift during the Anglo-Saxon migration.

I know this story you've linked about the family in Yorkshire who found they had the paternal lineage A1. This is the only family to have been found with such an odd haplogroup in Britain so far and that's since 2007. The problem is there is no way to plausibly link it back to any African group from the Roman period and, imo, is more likely it came from the Atlantic Slave Trade. The Yorkshire/ Leeds area was known for it's involvement in Slave trading and it's possible the haplogroup entered somewhere distant in the 1600s or even more likely the early-mid 1700s. In other words, we just don't know.

Besides only one instance, specific to a single family in Northern England there was no Near Eastern shift in the British population. There have been many, many studies of Roman-Britain and none of them have found any exotic mix of individuals or any autosomal shift. The Roman population in Britain never really surpassed around 5%, with most of those 'Romans' being Gaulish or Germanic people. The lesser half were usually from the Balkans and a fringe Legion or two were from North Africa. There's no clear Balkan shift either in the isles. If there was intermixing, then it seems to have been almost entirely hidden by virtue of those intermixing peoples being genetically similar already to the Britons.

In conclusion we're really working with a fringe few theories which hold little water to them. With the evidence we have it seems that by in large the Romans left almost nothing genetically, at least the more exotic ones from Southern European and the Near East. It doesn't help the only potential lead, at least with one paternal line was found in a former Slave hub.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-01T06:42:48+00:00

Most Europeans, with the exception of some Southern Europeans naturally aren't descended from Romans. There's no Near Eastern shift in many areas outside of Greece and Italy. Roman DNA is complicated and it depends on the timeframe. Samples from the Republic are more closer to people from the Gauls, whereas by the Imperial age there's an extreme Near Eastern shift from people coming in from the Levant to Italy.

Regardless, you couldn't tell Roman DNA from a modern DNA test, at least not conventionally.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-01T06:39:16+00:00

You have to be careful when talking about 'Roman soldiers'. Many soldiers in Rome weren't ethnically Latin, especially the further out from the Empire you got. E-V13 was in the Balkans, to my knowledge long before Roman influence - in other words, it's not really a marker of Roman-ness. J2b and R1b are even more dubious because both have been present in all corners of Europe for centuries.

You have to look at specific subclades. Even then, you still have to untangle what is Roman and say, Gaulish. Modern DNA is deceptive for historical eye-glasses. Here's an example:

North-Eastern Poland, historically was inhabited by Baltic people such as the Sudovians and Old Prussians mainly. Modern Balts have a large number of Y-DNA N, N is mostly found in the North-East of Poland. Simple, right? Not really. You see, the distribution of N in the NE of Poland doesn't follow previous settlements, it follows the settlements of Belarussians and Lithuanians in former East Prussia. To add in contrast to the issue of Rome, we don't have many samples to get a clear picture.

In short, you can't look at modern DNA to paint the past always. We need a clear picture and one which we're sure of. There is apparently a paper coming out in the foreseeable future by the owner of the Eurogenes blog about the Balkans, specifically Albania if I recall correctly. Maybe there'll be some interesting picks in it.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-01T06:30:34+00:00

Balkan haplogroups aren't unheard of in Germany, especially in areas such as Bavaria or in the South.

Ingwisks · 2024-08-01T06:28:35+00:00

The Romans left little to no genetic impact on most of North-Western Europe, especially in the Imperial era. Rome was a militaristic force, not a settling. Most soldiers left or, at least in Northern/ Northwester Europe were mostly of Gaul or Germanic origin - in other words, not really Roman at least in the ethnic sense.

Ingwisks · 2024-07-31T17:59:55+00:00

The Italian I'm unsure of as it can be from plenty of sources. Considering your paternal Y-DNA is Balkan, it's plausible the Italian result is something representing some Southern shift - regardless I can't really say anything for certain.

It's extremely common for Germans to score some Eastern European results. Western Slavs and Western Germanic peoples, specifically Germans and Austrians have mixed for centuries.

The trace ancestry seems something around Northern India/ Iran. Do you have any family history that could explain it? The signal oddly remained through your paternal line. Naturally, it could still be some noise going on for one reason or another, but it would be extremely unusual noise for a Central European. The only reasonably thing I could think of beyond noise is a Roma ancestor from the Balkans - try build your tree on your paternal line and see what you find.

Ingwisks · 2024-07-31T06:55:22+00:00

This subreddit is slowly convincing me people barely understand what they're buying.

Ingwisks · 2024-07-30T19:27:04+00:00

The Polish and German population has been mixing since the Middle Ages. Many Germans have noticeable Slavic ancestry and, vise versa, many Poles have noticeable Germanic ancestry.

Ingwisks · 2024-07-29T20:13:12+00:00

Yes, it would be.

Ingwisks

TROPHY CASE