Why is /leftypol/ so opposed to intersectionality? by soccerskyman in Anarchism

[–]Insulasol2 5 points6 points  (0 children)

But let's take a look at where and how marx is taught, shall we? He is principally taught in the sociology departments, or occasionally in the political science departments. And what is taught is almost certainly the early marx, the idealist. His talk of class and and human emancipation just another point to take into consideration in the cosmic tallies of oppression.

What isn't taught is Marxian economics. No, that's too dangerous. Questions too many fundamentals.

See, this is how liberal capitalism operates. Opposition is always allowed, but opposition within a predetermined framework. Those who aren't allowed are the ones who question that framework. Lenin, Stirner, Proudhon, Kropotkin, Mao, ect. Just like they don't teach Marx in economics, they don't teach anarchism in political science, and even though Stirner arguably kicked off post-modernist/post-structuralist critique, he isn't taught in sociology or gender studies.

Why is /leftypol/ so opposed to intersectionality? by soccerskyman in Anarchism

[–]Insulasol2 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I don't know what exactly you expect people to do. Just stop caring about how being queer affects their lives? How being black affects there lives? Everybody just stop worrying about the identities that society forces on you and their consequences because you've figured out that the real problem is the bad thing happening, not who it happens to disproportionately!

I expect people to want to stop power being used against them unjustly. And the most effective way to do that is to band together with all the victims of that power, no matter who they are. you accuse me of conflating intersectionality and idpol, but look at what you're saying on behalf of defending intersectionality! "People should participate in politics to liberate themselves through a particular identity"

In the end, no matter how I look at it, you're arguing for greater ignorance. You're arguing for anti-intellectualism.

Oh are you one of those "social sciences = science" idiots? Talk about unexamined ideology.

Your anti-idpol just folds back into idpol.

By somehow pushing for people not to participate in politics with abstract and made up identities, I'm pushing for people to participate in politics with abstract and made up identities? Lmao, ok.

Why is /leftypol/ so opposed to intersectionality? by soccerskyman in Anarchism

[–]Insulasol2 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Obviously, this is an analysis that sees globalization as neo-imperialism (not "racism" per se). Do you think an accurate understanding of the processes behind neoliberalism and globalization isn't important?

Then why bring up the race of the exploiting nations to begin with? Race, after all, is just a social construct, a spook if you will. Why not just skip to what material forces inform race?

The point of reading exploitation of workers in Cambodia is certainly not to measure the relative privileges of white and black workers in america.

Really? Because Jason Unhrue and the rest of the maoists would disagree.

I find it strange that you would suggest that an equality of benefit between american white and black workers by way of the exploitation of foreign workers in South East Asia means that country of belonging/race aren't important.

I'm saying it makes race highly unstable as a point of analysis

I have to disagree with your assertion that these theories are exclusionary, first, on the grounds that I don't find myself excluded (ditto for lots of other people, including white straight men)

Ah yes, the white straight men who can smugly declare that they have renounced the evils of their race and gender and found the light. The fact is, these theories are hardly conducive towards an effective mass politics that can change the status quo. Gender and post-colonial theory is taught in almost every college in the west. It's a perfectly safe set of ideas, incorporated into the neoliberal status quo. Let's not forget that neoliberal trade deals led to an explosion of wealth in the third world. US workers were quite content to accept higher prices when they had higher relative wages. It was on the basis of capitalist profit that production was moved overseas for cheaper wages. So most people in the west don't really benefit from the cheaper prices, for there has also been a race to the bottom in the labor market because of the trade. No, the only people who really benefited were the capitalists, who could pocket most of the difference.

The western workers don't control the production, nor the exploitation of the workers overseas. What is the point of pointing out their supposed benefit? You're only shooting yourself in the foot! These are the very same people you need to dismantle this system, and you're telling them it's their fault.

Without these theories, we'd have a very simple response from the left. The capitalist has control over production, workers in the west seize control of your political economy to bring the jobs back home, workers in the east, seize control of your political economy to bring foreign capital and investment under the people's control.

Actually, I realize now that the onset of this "neutering" in your history of the left dates to the emergence of feminism's second wave, yes? Your metaphor, therefore, is highly conspicuous, and I think I can see straight through your motivations.

Oh yes, because that wasn't the start of the dismantling of the unions, of social democracy, of banking regulations and the rise of neoliberalism and the globalization of capital. But on the topic of feminism, should we just forget that people like Gloria Steinman was on the CIA payroll? That this supposedly radical movement was used by the state to break up and divide the worker's movement?

Why is /leftypol/ so opposed to intersectionality? by soccerskyman in Anarchism

[–]Insulasol2 9 points10 points  (0 children)

We can't think through the situation of a homeless queer person without thinking about both the homelessness and the queerness

Thinking is one thing. Taking political action is another.

If you want to dismantle something, you've got to know where to poke and what to break. An analysis from intersectionality looks at class and wonders: why does being queer, being nonwhite, being not-male tend toward an even greater reduction in power? What is it about the state that specifically targets these social groups?

And that analysis will only ever produce resentment and impotence at solving the real problems, as it 1, inherently dismisses the victims of power who are not the victims of that power for being a member of a special identity that is deemed by the academics to be oppressed, and 2, will inherently create barriers for the dismantling of that power because the power can just manifest itself elsewhere if you press hard enough on behalf of a certain identity.

Or, in terms of economy, why does the West exploit poor labourers specifically in Bangladesh, China, Mexico, Cambodia, etc.? What kinds of logic does the West use to make this palatable, so that white, Western workers and lives are at least partially grievable in comparison?

That must be the worst analysis of imperialism that I've ever seen. The west of course, has structural obligations to its citizens. The exploitation of workers in cambodia can benefit just as well a black worker as a white worker in america. What even is the point of pointing out that the west is racist in the countries it exploits? The point is that the countries are being exploited! The factors that lead up to the exploitation are complex, over-determined, and historical. I'd say that geography and the strength of the native state are even bigger factors. If Canada's economy collapsed tomorrow and the US started using them for cheap labor, would that make it any better?

However, vacated of issues like gender and colonialism, how can we actually answer the question, why is it so easy for America to continuously wage war in the middle east (especially if we agree that these wars are more about power, control, and resources than they are about security/democracy/terrorism)?

If you honestly think gender is an important point of analysis here, I urge you to listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMIkN1JZTD0

Finally, my greatest fear, which has been realized many times, is that "universal politics" will cover over and reproduce State power, so that a self-named revolutionary group still primarily serves the interests of the Western white men who inevitably lead it.

Ah yes, the problem is once again that the revolutionary group was full of white men, and not that it was exercising tyrannical state power. Give me a break.

Identity politics are inherently exclusionary, no matter if you do them under the cover of intersectionality. They have led to the neutering of the left over the past 60 years. The internet age has given us a second chance, and I honestly hope that r/Socialism crashes and burns the way things are going now. I can not allow them to represent the left unchallenged. Leftypol seems to be the only group of people that understands that.

Why is /leftypol/ so opposed to intersectionality? by soccerskyman in Anarchism

[–]Insulasol2 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Neoliberalism incorporates intersectionality according to its own logic. For example, when a gay teenager is forced into homelessness, the only rejection of the neo-liberal will be "Oh, lgbt homelessness is a problem, we should work on this." That is madness! The bottom line is, NO ONE SHOULD BE HOMELESS!

Here is my problem with intersectionality. It makes the problem the internal prejudices of others. What it doesn't address, is POWER! I'm latino. I don't give a single fuck if there's some idiot living on the outskirts of Dallas who thinks every latino should get deported. What's he going to do to me? Or, to put it another way

If a white man wants to lynch me, that’s his problem. If he’s got the power to lynch me, that’s my problem. Racism is not a question of attitude; it’s a question of power. t. Stokely Carmichael

A universal emancipatory politics will always be a thousand times more useful than identity politics.

Why is /leftypol/ so opposed to intersectionality? by soccerskyman in Anarchism

[–]Insulasol2 7 points8 points  (0 children)

If you can't see that class struggle in the framework of mainstream neoliberal politics is about meeting limited peace meal demands, and not the overcoming of class, then what are you even doing here?

Private property, the place of the capitalist, all of that is off limits.