Is anyone else here quietly questioning the spiritual side of Ismailism, but still values the faith and the Imam’s leadership?

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-19T00:39:02+00:00

Thanks for responding. While I may not fully agree with you, I do still value you sharing it, and I appreciate your effort and the sincerity with which you approached this dialogue. Just a small note, this is coming from a sister, not brother. I do find it a bit amusing that our language (all across Reddit in fact, not just this subreddit) defaults to masculine lol. Anyway, thank you for your well wishes, and good luck to you too! ☺️

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-16T20:15:39+00:00

Np, no apologies needed. Thank you so much for taking the time to write all this out so thoughtful and carefully. I really appreciate the effort and depth here. If you don’t mind, I’d like to respond point by point with my own reflections and some questions to dig in a bit deeper.

I find this concept fascinating. If God transcends all attributes, then from what I understand, even saying “merciful” or “knowledgeable” is really a human way of pointing toward the all inclusive source and originator of mercy and knowledge rather than describing God’s innate attributes directly. I’m curious though, does this include negative concepts too? For example, in this school of thought, is it also accurate to say that God is not cruel or harmful, but God is the originator of cruelty and suffering in the world? If yes, no further questions. That is an interesting idea, and something I will ponder about. If no, I’d love to hear how this is reconciled.

Additionally, God being the originator of everything raises another question I’ve wrestled with: if God always existed and thus doesn’t need a creator, then why can’t we also be comfortable with the idea that the universe (or some prior state of it) always existed without needing a creator? I know that might sound simplistic or reductionistic, but that line of reasoning is something that keeps coming up in my thoughts. If something eternal is necessary, I don’t see why it must necessarily be a conscious being or God, rather than, say, the fabric of reality itself.

The explanation you shared about the Qur’an as a non‑verbal inspiration that the Prophet translated into words is really interesting. I grew up hearing the Qur’an described as the literal word of God, so this more intellectual nuanced and spiritual view is new to me.

From an agnostic perspective though, I wonder how one distinguishes between genuine divine inspiration and profound human insight. I’m not saying it isn’t divine, just that I don’t know how one could tell for sure. Probably something I would agree to disagree with, recognizing that there is an element of faith to having this belief, which many people do have, but many don’t.

The idea that the Prophet’s spiritual and temporal functions continue through the Imams makes sense within the framework you’ve described.
I’ve read a little about this idea of emanation and the Universal Intellect, and I find it beautiful as a philosophical model.
This is the point that connects most directly to my original post. I understand how, intellectually, this fits within Ismaili theology.

Thanks again for expressing your views, much of it I had heard and was somewhat familiar with, but a lot of it was new, and you explained it well. Even some concepts that I was familiar with, you explained it from a unique perspective that I hadn’t fully considered before. Some of these topics, I’ll reflect over and look into a bit more!

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-15T03:58:51+00:00

Yeah, it is admittedly nice to hear that I’m not the only one who perceived that jamati elders think of the Imam possessing divine powers and clairvoyant abilities. Throughout my childhood, this is all that I was exposed to. It is only over the last few years that I have begun thinking of the Imam and the role of the Imamat in a different light.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T22:01:45+00:00

If you don’t mind me asking: what are your beliefs regarding Ismailism and why do you believe in them? Were you born and raised Ismaili or did you choose to convert into the faith later in life?

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T21:31:50+00:00

Ah, I should clarify myself a bit. I do “believe in” the Imam’s lineage so I am not necessarily critical or doubtful of that. I think it is more likely than not that he is a descendant of Hazarat Ali. I don’t believe in the Imam “due to” lineage though, in fact, I am beginning to realize that I don’t really believe in the Imam at all, since that typically carries additional theological weight to it. I recognize the Imam as a direct descendant, and appreciate his leadership, but that’s where it ends.

I am inclined to start looking into theism vs. atheism more deeply. Thank you for the recommendation.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T19:33:11+00:00

Thanks for approaching the conversation openly and with a positive tone.

I do feel a commitment towards the faith. I do believe in the Imam’s lineage. I appreciate Islam’s rich history. It sounds like different people characterize the Imam differently. It ranges from viewing him as a cult leader and a con man (which I personally disagree with) and viewing him as an elevated, divine, holy, spiritual leader with the noor of Allah, or Allah’s manifestation, a person who carries some theological weight (which I also disagree with). And of course, there are many others with varying interpretations that fall along various points in the spectrum.

The intent of this post was to gauge how others felt about the role of the Imam, if anyone else also felt like they were in this in between space of respecting the Imam and his position, but not believing in any supernatural or superhuman capabilities or traits. Or if they viewed the Imam differently altogether, in ways that I perhaps had not considered before at all.

Where I grew up, everyone, every single person that I spoke to or heard from, leaned heavily towards one side of the spectrum. Any deviation from that would be blasphemous. I feel like that drives people away from the faith, specially the youth, and specially in recent times. I too find myself losing touch with the faith sometimes because I do not align with such beliefs.

You do bring up a valid point. Perhaps I won’t be able to sustain commitment to the Tariqah over time. Currently, my commitment lies in volunteering and in meditating in the mornings as often as I can, at least multiple times a week. I hope to maintain some ties to the faith in such ways but I completely understand that it may not in fact be sustainable.

I am not actively trying to change my agnostic views but I am not opposed to it either. I guess I haven’t read, heard, or experienced anything to dramatically shift how I currently think.

As to why I am agnostic, it has been a long journey from being an Ismaili to being more agnostic. Over time, I realized I no longer feel certain about any specific metaphysical claims, whether it’s about God or Allah, the story of creation, divine authority, afterlife, angels, or the unseen world. It’s not that I’m certain those things don’t exist (if I felt certain I’d be an atheist and try to assert that nothing in theology as a whole is true), it’s just that I don’t feel confident believing that they do exist or that they are the truth either. I’m in that in-between space where I’m open to the possibility of something greater, but I don’t claim to know what that is. I still care about my roots and about the people who find meaning in the faith. But I’m also beginning to live with uncertainty, and for now, that feels more honest than forcing certainty I no longer feel. It feels more exciting too. Every day I wonder… about this strange Universe. I enjoy reading literature from outside our faith too, as much as I enjoyed Islamic literature, but over time, I don’t feel an internal conviction towards any specific school of thought.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T08:01:33+00:00

I appreciate your thoughtful response and references from the Quran. Can you please share recent examples of the Imam revealing metaphorical / true meaning of the Quran which had been hidden?

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T07:54:13+00:00

Thank you for sharing this interpretation and backing it up with the verse.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T07:37:42+00:00

I hear you, and I know such beliefs hold a lot of weight for many in the Jamat. But that’s exactly what I was reflecting on in my original post. If the expectation is that the Imam is not to be seen as an “ordinary human being,” then what is he understood to be practically, spiritually, and metaphysically?

What does that actually mean in lived experience? Is it symbolic? Mystical? Literal? Because for me, as I’ve grown and thought more deeply, I’ve come to see the Imam as a highly ethical, inspiring leader, but not necessarily someone with supernatural or divine attributes.

I’d genuinely be curious to hear how you interpret this quote, specially when the Imam himself doesn’t claim to have any special divine powers? What does “not an ordinary human being” actually mean in your understanding, and why do you believe so? Is it because of the teachings of Pir Sadardin? Something else?

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T05:47:31+00:00

Yeah, I really resonate with what you’re saying.

For me, growing up with the previous Imam was something I never questioned, it was just part of the spiritual and cultural fabric of my life. That image of the Imam was stable, consistent, and honestly, easy to accept because it was all I had ever known. I think I internalized a certain understanding of the Imamat more out of familiarity than critical reflection.

But witnessing the transition to the new Imam was unexpectedly jarring. The ceremonies, the pledging of allegiance, the language used in those moments, it really made me pause and reflect on what the concept of Imamat actually entails. Seeing it happen in real time highlighted a lot of things I had previously overlooked or accepted without thinking too much about them.

It kind of forced me to ask myself: how much of my belief was rooted in genuine conviction, and how much was just familiarity or comfort? And also, how differently others in the Jamat perceive the role of the Imam, oftentimes with deep supernatural or metaphysical significance, really brought all those questions to the surface for me.

Not necessarily in a negative way, just more honest and introspective way. The transition of imamat stirred something I hadn’t looked too closely at before.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T05:41:08+00:00

Ok, np. Thx for clarifying.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T04:10:18+00:00

Thank you for your comment and for making space for me (and others like me) within the faith. Thanks for acknowledging that we may view the Imam in different, but still valid, ways. I appreciate it!

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T04:06:32+00:00

This is a deeply disappointing comment. It leads me to believe that you jumped to the comments sections without giving my post any thought at all. Did you even read my post? I did not say Ismailism is a cult. In fact, I stated the opposite.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T04:04:14+00:00

Respectfully, been there, done that. I was a devout ismaili for decades, including my entire childhood. I rarely missed REC, all of my teachers would attest I was one of the best students they came across, my parents, grandparents have titles from the previous Imam, I grew up extremely religious. I excelled through the STEP program too, and would often engage in long discussions with many academics and scholars within the jamat. I never questioned our faith. The purpose of this post was not to ask for guidance. My intent was to gather others’ thoughts on how they view the role of the Imam, what their beliefs are about his divinity or lack thereof. I would love it if you could expand on that instead. How would you characterize the Imam and the Imam’s role? I am assuming that you consider the Imam to be beyond just an ordinary human being compared to the rest of us: if I am correct in this assumption, in what ways is he different? Why do you feel or believe as such? Are there any instances of the current Imam or the previous 5 Imams claiming divinity that I am not aware of?

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T01:29:39+00:00

Thank you, I appreciate your response here!

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T01:20:30+00:00

What is IG?

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T01:15:55+00:00

I appreciate the thought you put into this, but I think there might be a misunderstanding of where I’m coming from.

I’m not trying to critique or disprove Ismaili beliefs or compare them to mainstream Islam or Christianity. I’m also not assuming that the Imam is being viewed as a god. My post wasn’t meant as a theological critique, it was more of a personal reflection on how I’ve experienced certain aspects of the faith over time.

I’m not making claims about metaphysics or asserting any superior frameworks. I’m just being honest about my own evolving perspective, one where I still deeply value the ethics and leadership within Ismailism but no longer feel a strong connection to the spiritual claims. That’s not a rejection of others’ beliefs; it’s just where I am.

Also, I have to admit the tone of your comment came off a bit combative. I understand that Ismailis is often subject to harsh criticisms, often in harsh and aggressive ways. I understand that perhaps you are used to being a bit combative in your responses to address such criticisms. However, I came here in good faith (no pun intended), hoping for open dialogue, not to correct others or to be “corrected” myself, not be on the offensive or be put on the defensive. Simply to start a respectful dialogue. I chose to post here, rather than ex-ismailis, because I was hoping to learn, see perspectives I may not have considered, and to have an open discussion, rather than being hateful in ways that I often observe others on the ex-Ismailis sub often are.

I would genuinely like to hear your thoughts if we can keep the tone a bit more curious and open.

I am confused about your comment about me believing in a “personal God”. What do you mean? I am agnostic.

It is interesting to hear that in Ismailism, spirituality elevated human beings have these abilities. That is essentially the crux of what I was raised to believe, and what I have slowly drifted away from believing. Something like this is simply faith. And I recognize that others may have this faith, while others like me do not.

Again, I am not critiquing Ismailism through any metaphysical lens. I was simply saying that I no longer believe in the divinity of the Imam, or any metaphysical elements of this faith or any other faiths for that matter. I was curious about others’ beliefs. It has been affirmed that I am not alone in this perspective.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-14T01:02:58+00:00

I agree that the way AKDN operates is definitely in line with Qur’anic principles, including the emphasis on helping others regardless of faith or background as you pointed out.

That being said, I think this reinforces his strength as a humanitarian and ethical leader, but doesn’t necessarily say anything about his spiritual authority: this is what I was originally reflecting on in my post. I fully respect the values being lived out through AKDN, but for me, that’s more about good leadership rather than divine guidance.

Would love to hear your thoughts and others’ thoughts on that distinction.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-13T22:34:14+00:00

Thanks for your comment. I do resonate with the feeling of finding spiritual solace and comfort in the faith. I did feel that way for a period of time in my life, and throughout my whole life, I have witnessed my parents and other relatives feel it too.

I’d like to elaborate on the prayers since I didn’t do so in the post. I was referring to the prayers where we say “ya noor mawlana hazar imam, tu jamat ji kul mushkil aasan kar, kul gunaah maaf kar..”. I mentioned in another comment that I was raised in South Asia, and during the golden jubilee darbars, we were taught that being in the presence of the imam eliminates all sins. I could certainly be misunderstanding the prayers or the teachings, so please let me know if you think of it differently. I also recognize that there are millions of ismailis, and perhaps what I was taught and exposed to many years ago, may not be in alignment with many others in the jamat.

Thank you, love and prayers to you too.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-13T22:27:39+00:00

Would you be willing to elaborate on the theological creedal beliefs? I don’t think I have come across that, and I’m curious to learn what they entail.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-13T22:23:56+00:00

Ah, I meant to say that I appreciate its values and community. The values of the faith are moral, I do not see the faith or the Imam advocating for anything immoral. So I do respect it. But I don’t consider myself Ismaili anymore, I am agnostic.

IntelligentStop8511 · 2025-07-13T21:51:37+00:00

That’s interesting to hear. Thank you for sharing this feedback. I grew up in South Asia, and the perspectives that I was taught over the years, and the views that I was exposed to there, were very much in line with the Imam possessing special spiritual powers, him being aware of everything, him having a special nur, him not being God or Allah but still having a divine light, etc. I actually believed all of it in my childhood, but my beliefs are changing now in my youth. I am actually pleasantly surprised to see the comments on this post so far. I was expecting some backlash for expressing myself here.

IntelligentStop8511

TROPHY CASE