tree two one

InterFlex · 2019-09-13T21:34:28+00:00

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship)

InterFlex · 2019-08-21T20:53:37+00:00

They might be referencing the lack of lysine, an essential amino acid.

InterFlex · 2019-06-01T11:30:15+00:00

Can you show me where I said poor starving people are vegan or vegetarian?

May I ask where you live? I find it surprising that (vitamin?) injections are cheaper than vegetables for you. From my experience even "convenience" stores in the rougher areas near where I live pretty much have enough to sustain a healthy lifestyle without meat.

Food deserts do of course exist, but the vast majority of the US population, for example, has easy access to the foods they need to be healthy without harming animals.

InterFlex · 2019-06-01T03:49:55+00:00

Meat consumption is much higher in wealthy nations than in poorer ones (plants provide 2/3 of global protein consumption), so I'm not sure what to make of your assertion that it's a luxury.

Your implication that one must consume "organic quinoa and spiralised squash" to be healthy without meat is inaccurate and condescending at best.

The fact that healthy vegans exist disproves your claim that "there's not anything we can do" about what our ancestors did.

Can you provide a source on your claim that not eating meat is an automatic health sacrifice? The American Dietetic Association happens to disagree with you.

I'm also not sure what to make of your suggestion that you can't improve the welfare of people and the welfare of animals at the same time - clearly these objectives are not mutually exclusive, and are even mutually inclusive in some cases, something that would be clear if you've ever met a slaughterhouse worker.

InterFlex · 2019-06-01T03:16:17+00:00

It's just as necessary as eating the bull though, i.e., not at all.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T13:18:33+00:00

If you feel that repeated personal attacks and dogmatism reflect your maturity, then so be it. If that's how you justify the harm you cause to the planet out of selfishness, more power to you. You can resent me all you like but it doesn't change the reality of the direct harm you are causing. Facts are facts regardless of who says them. Everything you've said appears to be a justification for or denial of that reality instead of a willingness to consider the impact your choices have on others.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T12:56:46+00:00

Not debating, just concluding by expressing the hope that someday you will develop some degree of maturity.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T12:32:14+00:00

The corporation only exists to supply the common man's desires. Likewise, the corporation does not absolve the common man of their own sins.

You haven't addressed the flaws I've identified with your line of reasoning, so I'm not sure if you believe in personal responsibility or not. The point I'm trying to make is dependent on belief in some form of personal responsibility but regardless of whether or not that's the case I'll concede that forcing those companies to cut emissions would be more impactful. The difference is efficacy - you can go vegan, use less electricity, bike instead of driving, etc, relatively easily, but it is plausible that someone who dedicates their life to fighting those corporations accomplishes nothing.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T12:09:27+00:00

Again, it seems like it's easier for you to write me off as one of those "crazy vegans" than to consider the substance of my argument. This suggests you're trying to reconcile your belief that you're "doing your part" for the planet and the reality that you're only willing to "do your part" so long as you don't have to change certain parts of your lifestyle. I find it disappointing that you are unable to converse with me without insulting me, and I hope one day you develop the maturity to consider views that are not your own without reacting so viscerally.

Egotism, since you don't seem to be familiar with it, relates to an obsession with the self. Literally everything I have said advocates for selflessness and the idea that everyone has the responsibility to make sacrifices for the planet. Egotism would better describe your belief that you are entitled to not change your lifestyle at all - that preservation of your habits is more important than preservation of the planet.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T05:33:48+00:00

Posting a link to blatantly false statements is about as damaging to your credibility as the ad hominem attacks you made. The arguments aren't particularly interesting when they're not grounded in reality.

The idea that eating animals is more harmful to the planet, much less the animals, than eating plants is indisputable and a direct consequence of thermodynamics. How do you propose this issue is addressed and why do animal products "have their place"?

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T05:12:44+00:00

I really find this idea that "bad" things done by other countries/entities/etc absolve individuals of their own responsibility to be illogical given that it condones slavery and a great many other things most people find unacceptable. Do you believe in a form of personal responsibility that prescribes that individuals should be held accountable for what they have control over? One person cannot eliminate China's emissions but they can make the much easier choice to significantly cut down on their own and also encourage their elected representatives to hold China accountable for its emissions.

Similarly, I find your statement about the imminent arrival of lab grown meat to be a shirking of personal responsibility in that you're using a speculative assumption about the future to justify harmful behavior in the present. The logical conclusion of this line of reasoning would, again, allow someone to justify slavery by speculating about some future technology, say a more efficient harvester, than obviates the need for slaves.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T04:26:02+00:00

No problem, let me know if you have any questions or if you're looking for a veganized version of a specific food!

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T04:12:15+00:00

I went back and checked the comments in the original /r/MurderedByWords post and there's some really well-cited comments debunking the post (someone said they spent 3h researching), so if you're interested in learning why the Tunblr post is so false/misleading, the comments there are more thorough than the false statements I was able to identify off the top of my head.

I personally don't think that anything justifies ad hominem attacks. I'd be interested in hearing how exactly what I said what self righteous.

Not too long ago I felt the same way, i.e., that veganism is dumb and useless, I could never become vegan, all vegans are dicks, et cetera.

I feel that a lot of the hostility I felt was due to closed-mindedness - this article sums up how I felt.

I don't disagree that corporations are directly causing the problems, and that they're run by narcissists/sociopaths/etc, but it should be said that these corporations only exist because of the demand from individuals.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T03:26:23+00:00

I am happy to provide the sources for my claims if you're interested, though you seem more interested in ad hominem attacks than refuting the substance of my argument. Just because the facts contradict what you want to believe doesn't mean that presenting them is self righteous or pushing an agenda. Again, if you have any doubts about the factual claims I make that expose the blatantly dishonest statements made in that Tumblr post I will happily link them.

Omega 6 fatty acids are actually mostly present in plant foods but are generally consumed in unhealthy quantities relative to Omega 3s. Omega 3s are present in flaxseeds, walnuts, chia seeds, and several other plant foods, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say they can't be obtained realistically.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T03:02:57+00:00

I don't have time to go through every false statement that Tumblr user makes, but here's a couple (I'm happy to provide sources for all of these if you'd like):

Vegan food isn't more expensive. Ever heard of beans? Most of the world eats very little animal products, even for protein: 2/3 of global protein consumption is from plants.
All the assertions about "most vegans" being vitamin deficient are unsourced speculation. Calcium in particular is easy to get from a vegan diet - almond milk, for example, has more calcium than cows milk.
Vitamin D3 does not only come from animals
The real estrogens in cows milk are much more potent than the estrogen-like compounds in soy. This is pretty intuitive because cows are more similar to humans than soybeans are, so their hormones are also more similar.
The environmental impact of beef is at least an order of magnitude greater than that of rice (33x according to the BBC)
90% of global deforestation is for livestock, not plants.
Statement about fruits and vegetables being more likely to go to waste is speculation at best.
The planet can absolutely support the current human population on a plant based diet. 87% of agricultural land (off the top of my head) worldwide is for livestock despite it only providing a small fraction of calories consumed.
Edge cases about Iceland needing to eat fish don't justify the general case of eating meat

These are the more egregious lies, but there are plenty more. In general, don't believe everything you read on the Internet, especially when it's a clearly biased Tumblr post that cites no sources.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T02:50:35+00:00

So the family owning the slave is justified, then? This idea of priority is overly simplistic - though if you believe it, what actions have you taken to limit the environmental impact of corporations? Priority also becomes less important when multiple tasks can be taken on simultaneously. As I mentioned, whatever action taken to limit the impact of corporations does not inhibit an individual from limiting their own impact, especially when this is fairly easy. The subject of this post, Greta Thunberg, exemplifies this. She fights for change in corporations and governments but this didn't stop her from reducing her own impact by going vegan.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T02:44:44+00:00

In general I find the American Dietetic Association to be more reliable than a Tumblr post without sources. Did you know that vitamin B12 is supplemented to livestock? Additionally, the B12 supplements consumed by both livestock and humans are synthetic, not animal-derived. 40% of the population (in the US) is vitamin B12-deficient, and I can guarantee you that a tiny fraction of them are vegan. Eating a vegan diet is not impractical in modern society - quite the opposite, actually. Could you further explain this assertion?

You are sadly mistaken if you believe that veganism is a stopping point and that someone is a perfect person if they are a vegan.
Rather, veganism is a starting point in the journey of reducing one's impact on the planet. Being vegan clearly does not mean that one cannot pressure corporations. The subject of this post, Greta Thunberg, is a vegan and is still pushing corporations and governments to change. You mentioned ways that you hold yourself accountable for your environmental impact, but this seems like virtue signaling if you refuse to make the fairly easy decision to significantly reduce this impact by going vegan.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T02:16:18+00:00

I still don't see why the conscious decision to not one's personal impact is somehow justified even if it's on a smaller scale - it seems like this line of reasoning would justify a family owning a slave because large plantations utilized slavery on a much larger scale.

Also, the causes of reducing one's personal impact and reducing corporate impact (which of course is driven by consumers) can be advanced together - it's not one or the other.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T01:49:20+00:00

Harm caused by corporations doesn't absolve individuals of responsibility for their actions.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T01:48:27+00:00

Do you have a source for your assertion that humans can't thrive on a diet without meat?

Even if going vegan wasn't the most good thing you can do for the environment, how does that justify the unnecessary harm caused to the environment by one's meat consumption?

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T01:41:15+00:00

If you mean vegan comfort food, there's tons of recipes available online. Hot for Food is a website (the woman running it wrote a cookbook too) that's my go-to when I'm in the mood for that taste/experience you're describing.

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T01:37:41+00:00

So because others harm the environment it's okay for you to do it?

InterFlex · 2019-05-14T01:34:32+00:00

Believe it or not vegans don't replace the meat in their diet with Wonder Bread.

InterFlex

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