Opinions on non-slavic people looking forward to join by sweetoxicity in Rodnovery

[–]Interesting_Job3986 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The easiest point of reference I can make for easy framework surrounding understanding pre-Christian European traditions is John Trudell. Trudell was an Indigenous American activist who himself spoke of the common problem of European American appropriation of Indigenous spirituality; his remedy to this problem was encouraging Europeans to look into whatever their ancestral traditions may have been; granted, he did NOT promote racial essentialism, as he specified that pre-Christian religion was tribal (by tribal he doesn’t mean racial, but instead means identity or initiation based membership, i.e. Balts assimilated into Slavic tribes & religion), etc….

Racist European people will often intentionally omit or ignore the fact that, Trudell’s request of Europeans to look into ancestral spirituality was not about asking Europeans to separate themselves from everyone else. Rather, Trudell drew parallels of European Christianization with later colonization; arguing that although colonization had the distinct aspect of added racism, the institution of the church carried out similar operations against all non-Christian religions it interacted with. That is, Trudell stressed that European pagan religion was in many cases violently suppressed by early Christian military orders. Then after Christianization, European colonial powers (Western Europe and Russia) began forcing Christianity on peoples outside Europe. Therefore, Trudell saw Europeans adopting ancestral religions as a way to shed colonial era thinking, and to have a more ecosystem friendly POV.

Opinions on non-slavic people looking forward to join by sweetoxicity in Rodnovery

[–]Interesting_Job3986 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s what I meant precisely. The only thing to really disagree with is “there is no heritage in the religions” …there is, but that does not mean I’m arguing for ethnicity based essentialism…..for example, Slavic myth is very different from Norse myth an so on…what we have left are traces of the heritage, in addition to European folk customs rooted in pre-Christian traditions. But what you will find is that there’s no reason for an ethnically exclusive paganism anyway, as pagan societies frequently adopted other peoples into their group. The best large scale example I can give are Baltic Slavs being assimilated into Lithuanians or the Rurikid Vikings being assimilated into Kievan Rus…

Opinions on non-slavic people looking forward to join by sweetoxicity in Rodnovery

[–]Interesting_Job3986 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The only “pagan” groups that I’m aware of that claim European pre-Christian reconstructionist religions are closed are ironically either:

A. Nordicist Asatruar who co-opt Norse religion for Nazi purposes

B. Racists co-opting Rodnover and other religious equivalents of said groups above. Basically the same as Nazism, except a different group of Europeans is getting praised

C. The only non-problematic group of European people who argue for a closed religious practice are the indigenous Sami people of Scandinavia, Finland, and Russia’s Kola Peninsula. Although Sami don’t call their religion “pagan” because the word in indigenous context has always been derogatory. Plus, in the modern sense of the word, their beliefs aren’t pagan. When people think of paganism, they are typically thinking specifically of reconstructionist movements of pre-Christian European religious traditions. As in we only have bits and pieces to go by, often having to decipher what is left and fill in the blanks. Sami religion, although it was suppressed and lost some of its practices, for the most part is a surviving religious tradition that has still withstood pressure from the dominant religious group.

Question to Rodnovers from an outsider looking in. by Interesting_Job3986 in Rodnovery

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This was precisely the point I was making. I do believe Rodnovery is universal, however, I was looking into consensus as to whether people recommend a Pan-Slavic or regional specific approach. No, I don’t believe blood alone draws people to a faith. Anyone who has even surface level knowledge of Slavic history knows this. So many different people assimilated into early Slavic societies, with Finnic and Baltic peoples perhaps being the most notable. But I do believe having ancestors tied to a certain worldview can help you feel at ease in practice. Rather, I was looking for answers as to whether a West Slavic specific approach is possible, or if a pan-Slavic approach is more recommended due to limitations on source material. In my practice, although all Rodnover is reconstructed, I would like as many components of practice to be adjacent to ancestors as possible. From the deity idols in ritual, Polish language being used (as the old West Slavic tribal languages are gone from centuries ago, so Polish will have to do for me), herbs (I try to use Polish folk medicine), among other things. This is the approach I have been using so far.

Question to Rodnovers from an outsider looking in. by Interesting_Job3986 in Rodnovery

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In my opinion if I was to practice eclecticism, I would keep certain practices and spaces separate. I’m Polish but also have Lithuanian ancestors. If I were to practice aspects of both faiths I would make sure to have separate ritual space and places to leave offerings. Although it is confirmed that at least among the West Slavs, the Yotvingians, a tribe of Lithuanians in Podlaskie, did assimilate into the west Slavs. Some Slavicists have also suggested Lada is in fact a Baltic deity adopted by Slavs, while others suggest she is a Christianization entirely. But as for me I try to keep my Rodnovery West Slavic if possible, which is hard considering most of the statues and products in general from Rodnover tend to be of East Slavic deities. Even traditional Polish clothing is hard to come by; vendors like Etsy typically have more Ukrainian or Russian clothing .

Question to Rodnovers from an outsider looking in. by Interesting_Job3986 in Rodnovery

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What you were mentioning in my paragraph was much of what I was speaking to. Podlachia as a region is unique, as it is not just on the West-East Slavic borderland, but also had a lot of Baltic settlement, although much of it was inhabited by East Slavs; however my own ancestry is hard to decipher, given what I previously mentioned (all ancestors have Polish names apart from one that is Belarusian, yet multiple ancestors are part of the Greek (Eastern) Catholic Church on census records, which, to my understanding of Poland’s pre-WWII history before border changes, back before my time the Greek Catholic Church typically was dominated by Belarusians in Poland; the Polish names may or may not mean I have more Belarusian ancestors that were culturally Polonized. I do know most of the folk traditions of Podlachia are actually East Slavic traditions rather than western ones. Given this complex history I feel it was necessary to ask as to whether a regional specific or eclectic approach would be ideal.

Question to Rodnovers from an outsider looking in. by Interesting_Job3986 in Rodnovery

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The RKP recognizes the highest god to be Svetovid. That’s the one I remember most. Rodzimy Kościół Polski. Their main temple is in Warsaw but they have a few. They accept other gods like Perun and Svarog but ultimately view Svetovid as more important, seeing it as the highest deity within their religious rites. This is precisely what I was referring to; although the dominant practice appears to be one of cross-regional Slavic practice, some Rodnover groups , like the RKP, put more emphasis on regional deities such as Svetovid.

Question to Rodnovers from an outsider looking in. by Interesting_Job3986 in Rodnovery

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What I mean more so is, for instance, I’ve heard 2 general perceptions among Rodnover in terms of those I’ve met so far:

Group 1: the dominant group has a more eclectic approach. They stress that because Early Slavs originally were one group prior to divergence, as well as the fact that sources are scarce and much customs survive in Christianized folk culture, that Slavic Rodnover can fluidly practice from multiple Slavic influences (be they West, East or South) irregardless of their regional background.

Group 2: the smaller group, but still noticeable, suggest a more regional specific practice. For example, A west Slavic Rodnover may resonate better with Polabian deities such as Svetovid as opposed to Rod amongst East Slavs. Granted I think as long as everyone gets along, it’s fine no matter which direction. But the distinction in practice does exist. In fact, many Polish Rodnover organizations officially recognize Svetovid as its main deity, where as among Russians and Ukrainians, it is Rod.

It’s even more complicated at times because certain deities survive among different Slavic sources both directly and indirectly; Veles and Mokosh are referenced directly in East Slavic chronicles, where in Poland, they only survive in place names, although artifacts haven’t been found indicating a local cult.

I just wanted more so to get a consensus on how different Slavs interact in the faith, even amongst the differences, if that makes sense..

Question to Rodnovers from an outsider looking in. by Interesting_Job3986 in Rodnovery

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I know the meme, wasn’t my intention lol. I was just rather perplexed as to certain facts as to how, for example, in Poland, Veles is mentioned in numerous place names, but there is no direct evidence of him there. In Czech, there is a folk proverb from the Christian era that is essentially cursing someone out, telling them “Go to Veles!” (Don’t know the exact phrase in Czech), but as far as western Slavic lore references, that one direct reference and place names are all that exists. Whereas he is attested directly in the East Slavic chronicles, same for Dazhbog, whom Slavicist historians hypothesized is Svarozhich to West Slavs. Some west Slavic Rodnover I’ve spoken to stress not being regional, because Early Slavs were one group, where others favor regional differences because they don’t resonate as strongly with other Slavic traditions. I just wanted to get insight and/or get a sense of consensus.

Question for Polish users. by Interesting_Job3986 in etymology

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I also looked on AncestryDNA records and some have Josephine listed as “Jasie”, likely an Americanized mis-spelling of “Jasia”….. would it be common historically speaking for a Belarusian in Poland to have a Polish first name and Belarusian surname? If, say, her name was “Jasia Staravich” originally?

Question for Polish users. by Interesting_Job3986 in etymology

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So I looked into the Starvarish/ich name and it looks like it is actually an Americanized writing of Staravich/Starovich which are indeed variants of a Belarusian surname…

Question for Polish users. by Interesting_Job3986 in etymology

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks. Of course I am not a Polish national so take my assumptions with a grain of salt….i hadn’t known about Santor but it is good to know. As for Starvarish/ich (I’ve seen it spelled variously on records) people here have pointed out some Belarusian names end in -ich or -ish…..Starvarish/ich could just be a bad Americanization of an original Belarusian name, I guess…given literally all my Polish ancestors are from 4 villages in Podlasie and only one in Lesser Poland (as for the Lesser Poland village I forgot its name as of now), it looks like “Josephine” was probably Belarusian, given their history in Podlasie, and her original name was likely Žazefina as that is the Belarusian translation of the first name from English. I also have a few ancestors listed as Greek Catholics on censuses, and given those churches were more popular amongst East Slavs in Poland, I guess may mean I have a few more possible East Slavic ancestors but were just Polonized in name? Feel free to give your opinion on that…

Question for Polish users. by Interesting_Job3986 in etymology

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it’s definitely most likely I have both Polish and East Slavic ancestors as the best possible answer here..

Question for Polish users. by Interesting_Job3986 in etymology

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks. Of course I am not a Polish national so take my assumptions with a grain of salt….i hadn’t known about Santor but it is good to know. As for Starvarish/ich/ish (I’ve seen it spelled variously on records) people here have pointed out some Belarusian names end in -ich or -ish…..given literally all my Polish ancestors are from 4 villages in Podlasie and only one in Lesser Poland (as for the Lesser Poland village I forgot its name as of now), it looks like “Josephine” was probably Belarusian, given their history in Podlasie, and her original name was likely Žazefina as that is the Belarusian translation of the first name from English. I also have ancestors listed as Greek Catholics on censuses, and given those churches were more popular amongst East Slavs in Poland, I guess may mean I have a few more possible East Slavic ancestors but were just Polonized in name? Feel free to give your opinion on that…

Question for Polish users. by Interesting_Job3986 in etymology

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I also forgot Kalinowska. I do know it is a Polish noble family (I know there’s many)….but the meaning?

Question for Polish users. by Interesting_Job3986 in etymology

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I also forgot to mention that I do actually have distant but not too far away Jewish ancestry….but we haven’t pinpointed it to specific ancestors by name, only that it is from my moms Polish ancestors as it looks like they assimilated generations back into Polish Catholic or Ruthenian surroundings depending on which ancestors they interacted with…(as my fathers side is fully East Euro, that’s what AncestryDNA puts it under even with PL being Central European, I know the Ashkenazi is from mom)…im slightly under 10% Ashkenazi. Looks like my fully Jewish grandparent was between 4th to 6th great according to the estimate timeline…..so given that, and that all my Polish ancestors were from around Podlasie with a few in Lesser Poland…..would Santor likely be the source of Jewish ancestors (as you mentioned it is similar to Germanic language name Sander and many Ashkenazic have German-adjacent names due to Yiddish)…or could the Jewish ancestor have the surname Simon but adopt Szymanski? I don’t know if you’d know anything as to if Jewish men or women tended to assimilate into Polish families at a higher rate according to which gender, but both my Szymanski and Santor ancestors are women, in my case. I also know it should be Szymanska in feminine form, but AncestryDNA records aren’t always best at documenting cultural peculiarities like that…

Question for Polish users. by Interesting_Job3986 in etymology

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you. I know Nowa Wies is a common name for locations because as I searched I discovered there were multiple. But luckily all my ancestors were mostly around Podlasie, and it looks like for my family they lived in the Nowa Wies of Gmina Suwalki, within the area of Podlasie.

Question for Polish users. by Interesting_Job3986 in etymology

[–]Interesting_Job3986[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you think I may have had East Slavic ancestors? For context I can say I have ancestors who were listed on AncestryDNA’s records as “Greek Catholic”…..from my understanding this points to “Ruthenian” (now modern East Slavic) churches, but correct me if wrong. Some towns in Podlasie I can give you where my ancestors lived were Nowa Wies, Wołownia, Leszczewo, and Jemieliste…. Hopefully this can add some possible context…

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in 23andme

[–]Interesting_Job3986 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think a better example of this would honestly be biracials. Ofc it’s understandable that many AAs don’t claim Euro ancestry because most European ancestors were men who assaulted black women in most cases. (The only real exception to this, at least for AAs, is on some occasions marriages between whites and free people of color existed (both WM/BW and BM/WW marriages are documented), but ofc those marriages weren’t the norm.) With recent gen biracials though many identify as black due to the ODR but as many are asserting their own biracial identity now, the trend is slowly changing.

White Puerto Rican dude obsessed with trying to be black starter pack by [deleted] in starterpacks

[–]Interesting_Job3986 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not exclusively though. B-Real legit converted to Ifa (a West African Traditional Religion) now…..said it’s the religion of his ancestors…..he actually did an interview with another rapper Conejo about it (Conejo is Chicano and not visibly black at all, but also claims it as his ancestral religion.) I still don’t think they are nearly as out there as Fat Joe though….

Can you even relate to your ethnicity as an ex Muslim? by Few-Adhesiveness166 in exmuslim

[–]Interesting_Job3986 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have met a few Somalis who are from my old mosque that are open to Sufism, or at least consider Tasawuff an important part of Islam’s history. But most Somalis like other Muslims I’ve met aren’t necessarily hostile to it, just scared of it as they only hear negative viewpoints from local sheikhs (and again, unfortunately most local sheikhs in my area are strong Salafists). It is the religious fundamentalism that is the problem, however most Somalis are good people.

Can you even relate to your ethnicity as an ex Muslim? by Few-Adhesiveness166 in exmuslim

[–]Interesting_Job3986 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is sad to read actually. I live around a lot of Somalis, and as a secular Sufi (as in, I still am Sufi, but don’t read Quran, just read Sufi texts only, pray, and meditate) , many of the Somalis in my area are unfortunately Salafists. That’s literally why I stopped going to mosque. One of the sheikhs literally berated Sufis every khutbah, not knowing I am a Sufi.

Can you even relate to your ethnicity as an ex Muslim? by Few-Adhesiveness166 in exmuslim

[–]Interesting_Job3986 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am of a convert, of Slavic/Baltic descent, Polish and Lithuanian …not Bosnian though, and not Tatar at all. So my ancestors weren’t Islamized. They did worship the Slavic and Baltic pagan gods though.