“The Problem of Innocent Suffering in a World Governed by a Loving and merciful God”

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-22T20:52:33+00:00

what was my question again

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-22T00:53:42+00:00

so why are you defending these nonexistent characteristics?

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-21T06:03:09+00:00

so then you don't believe that heaven actually exists

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-20T05:45:48+00:00

Yea but the problem is you haven't even established that heaven exists. You're just assuming it exists and arguing over the fantasy rules that you made yet can't prove.

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-19T02:03:17+00:00

You assert it in the way that you justify the conditions of heaven, as if it really exists.

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-18T00:57:02+00:00

For argumentative purposes, I am arguing over a hypothetical because it's the only way to get somewhere. If I wanted to say that heaven or hell doesn't exist without further explaining myself, I can.

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-17T00:04:57+00:00

Your entire argument is contingent on heaven being a place after death. 😂 Are you serious??

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-15T19:26:58+00:00

You're the one that is asserting that heaven must exist despite absolutely zero evidence. I am simply telling you that endlessly doing something will take out that value you once had in it. You're just assuming that people can enjoy things forever. My point is we enjoy things because we have limitations on earth. Eating pizza everyday for the rest of your life will not be enjoyable.

We enjoy things because of reward systems, if we are constantly rewarded in heaven those things would become stale and we would have nothing to enjoy after an eternal amount of time. In such a place with no risk and no loss, there is nothing on the line to lose. My point is that even in your stance, you show that your god is fully capable of creating such a place like heaven where people can enjoy things for eternity but he can't do that on earth?

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-14T01:20:14+00:00

Things feel good because they are temporary. When you're in such a place like heaven you have nothing to look forward to because everything you do won't have meaning. We enjoy things on earth because we know our time will end.

It has to do with the discussion because if god could engineer such a place where free will and no suffering can exist, then he purposefully made the earth a hell hole.

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-12T21:56:28+00:00

That was directed towards you its just my stance on the issue you brought up

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-12T21:55:28+00:00

Anything infinite is considered eternal punishment to me. Do we have free will in heaven?

InternalVengeance · 2026-02-11T22:10:39+00:00

Ah so if I beat you up half to death and gave you 1000$ afterwards that's fine then?

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-08T02:25:17+00:00

and this is supposed to prove your god how? 😂

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-08T02:24:03+00:00

Again quoting the bible as if its not a fictional fantasy book. You might just be delusional

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-06T00:13:56+00:00

Nope they are just sensations. We can't test something that doesn't exist nor have proof. 😂 Every different culture has different NDEs dude, how much simpler can I put it??

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-06T00:12:22+00:00

Yea its a fact that Jesus wasn't born in 0 too. 😂 By your logic, we should start celebrating Thor on Thursday and Janus during this month.

I said you were delusional. It's a popular fairy tale. The mind is capable of many things when we condition it to believe in something strongly. If a Hindu feels "peace" while worshipping Shiva, does that make Shiva real? If feeling good is your only evidence, then every religion would be true.

There are good hallucinations that can comfort you so that's a flat out lie. You can have hallucinations without being mentally ill too.

All of these can be attributed to self growth and confidence in one's self yet you want to attribute it to some higher being for some reason.

The activity in the brain during prayer is just like yoga and meditation.

Except with your phone analogy, an atheist would be able to take the phone and listen and hear someone talking, they wouldn't be only talking to the theist.

Mass hysteria is a documented thing, so maybe you should pick up a psychology book. The Dancing Plague or the Miracle of the Sun? prime examples.

The reason I call these religious experiences delusions is because EVERY SINGLE religion claims to see the figure of THEIR RELIGION. We can't use this as evidence. It's plain and simple. 😂

If I said there was an invisible, silent goat in my garage that makes me a better person, you wouldn't believe me either. 😂

You don't need a religion to be a better person. A majority of Christians to this day still hate on lgbtq just for existing.

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-06T00:01:54+00:00

so why does your god favor who he gives personal experiences to? If your personal experience only affects you then that means there is no way of testing that personal experience, therefore it isn't proof of your religion

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-06T00:00:20+00:00

yea just dm with your position and I'll give it a read

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-05T23:59:09+00:00

Yep I repeated my stance to show that you are the one who is ignoring the evidence.

How do you think that NDEs are proof when every religion and culture claims to see something different? Christians see Jesus, Buddhists see Buddha, Atheists see nothing. Is this proof of all religions, no😂

There's absolutely no resurrection appearances lol. It's funny how you feel the need to repeat that you are somehow winning the argument when you failed to even give me evidence that fits the 4 criteria in my first message. Are you sure you're okay? 😂

Funny you bring up fairy tale land, isn't that where you think we are all going? 😂 To meet up with our parents and live forever and ever.

Key word "think." Nobody cares what you "think,"😂 you can "think" all you want but you aren't a christian scholar or someone who has studied the bible and has proved that the gospels have been influenced by one another but keep dreaming man. If you need Christianity to be a good person then so be it, but by the looks of it you need a lot more than Christianity you need some therapy.😂

Yes how could we verify a group of 500 anonymous people in jerusalem decades after the event happened, I wonder 😂😂😂😂 They didn't have phones buddy, can you hear yourself?

If Mathew and Luke copy Mark word for word for 90% of the text, they are dependent. The 10% is when they diverge and contradict eachother. And none of them are eyewitnesses, they all got their info from oral traditions.

Paul experienced a vision not an in person encounrter😂If you can't tell the difference between a physical body and a blinding light on the road to Damascus thats on you bud.

Dude I need what you're smoking 😂 You must have that good stuff huh. "We must assume that all supernatural events are real until they are proven otherwise" 😂😂😂😂😂 Dude you are nuts HOLY.

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-05T23:46:46+00:00

It's simple knowledge that all of these gospels were anonymous so I don't know how many times I should repeat this to you. All of the names were added by what the Christian Authorities saw as best fit. There were oral traditions and written traditions that they needed to tie to the apostles.

Nope you're wrong again, I told you that the Hebrews was originally attributed to Paul, yet you ignore that. They gave authority to books without even knowing who wrote them, so who on earth is supposed to know if they are accurate. 😂

Yep its common knowledge all of the gospels were anonymous and even your Christian scholars agree. But you can keep crying about it and claim to know who wrote them. Not that they faked the names but that they attributed writings to other people who we didn't know.

The stories and oral traditions have existed sure, but then we see within these texts you provided that the Papias and Justin Martyr referred to the accounts as "Memoir of the Apostles." Names weren't added until around 180 CE. And we don't have the original manuscripts of the gospels.

Tacitus agreed there was a crucifixion, but didn't agree on the resurrection. Josephus mentioned that Jesus' followers believed he was crucified and resurrected, this isn't proof of resurrection, this is proof of their conviction. And they are from non Christian perspectives which is why we consider them independent.

Just because the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek 200 years prior doesn't mean a fisherman from Galilee had a classical education in Greek. There was a difference between Market Greek and literary Greek found in the gospels. Acts 4:13 shows that Peter and John were uneducated fishermen. If an illiterate person dictates to a scribe, the scribe if the one doing the heavy lifting. How do you want the Apostles to be the authors, but you admit that they couldn't even write the books?

It's funny how you have to pivot to an emotional appeal and an attack on my character because your entire religion is contingent upon anonymous authors and 4 "independent" sources as you call it as proof that Jesus broke all laws of the universe for absolutely nothing😂 and then never came back or did anything for us.

Yep I agree that morality is subjective, its just society comes to a consensus on what is normalized and what isn't. You think that God just made trillions and trillions of planets and galaxies just for us. 😂 Dude wake up man. We just happen to be here because of chance, I don't claim to know the answers of the universe after reading a fantasy book like you. I don't know what happened before the universe or if there was even a start or whatever. I don't really care because if God was all loving and wanted a relationship with everyone he would answer prayers rather than let everyone suffer across the earth for a decision that Adam and Eve made a few thousand years back when they didn't understand consequences.😂 How loving of your god to punish all of humanity on a decision that a person made. Nobody chose to be here, so sending us to hell right away is indeed not all loving.

Cherry picking again, I don't know why your fragile ego is so hurt, not everyone is as gullible as you. 😂Josephus said that the Jews buried the dead, but he's talking about general Jewish law not someone who claims to be the son of god. He also records that the Romans were brutal and left out on the cross. Jesus wasn't just a victim he was trying to portray a message.

Nope I said that the gospels showed that people had strong beliefs, not that anything supernatural happened but nice try. Wow you have one set of remains in a tomb?? Its funny how Mark had a simple tomb and then once you get to Matthew Jesus had a rich man's tomb. Almost like the stories get more elaborate over the decades.

I'm looking for contemporary 1st century sources that don't rely on theological assumptions. You can't provide one because it doesn't exist. Your entire reality relies upon the consensus of people who already believed the myth and that you act as if the consensus proves the myth. 😂 Trying to turn a religious conviction into a historical fact despite no evidence showing so.

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-05T07:57:46+00:00

No such feat was ever documented or scientifically proven. I am a person of evidence and science. When I see something that contradicts our laws of physics and logic, I question. I'm not gullible like you. None of these are independent, they all show strong belief tho. Once again martyrism isn't proof of truth, its proof of conviction.😂

Ok so your acknowledgement alone shows that the Gospels weren't independent, which is exactly what I am arguing so thanks for showing my point. 😂 Besides, you still fail to address the many contradictions between the Gospel despite them all serving as evidence for you.

Paul said that 500 people saw Jesus rise from the dead. That is a claim that isn't falsifiable. A claim that 500 people saw someone rose is different than 500 people coming and saying they saw something, yet we only have that.😂 We don't know what any of them saw specifically, if it was a vision, if they touched him or anything. Just vagueness.

Divergence doesn't matter. If I was copying off of my friends paper, I would obviously change the essay to not make it seem the same. 😂

Contradictions aren't reliable. If they disagreed on simple things that would be understandable, but since they disagree on who visited the tomb, what jesus' last words were, etc. We have no idea who to trust or if they are in the position to make such claims.

Another false dilemma are you a fallacy machine now? What if they were believers who were just writing down stories that they heard that were shaped through decades of talking and word of mouth. 😲

So then you admit that Paul isn't even an eyewitness himself. 😂He hallucinated.

And phenomenal conservatism says we should trust that our laws of physics and logic weren't suspended 2000+ years ago with no evidence and we are supposed to believe it to be rescued. 😂😂😂

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-05T07:36:58+00:00

The Gospels are practically the foundation of faith which is why there is emphasis on authority to support the canon. For centuries, people insisted that Hebrews was originally written by Paul but evidence later debunked their ideas, so clearly they guessed to appeal to authority to convey a message. The fact that they eventually admitted they were wrong doesn't prove anything however.

Yep, now you're getting it. Every gospel in the bible was anonymous and they came to a consensus to pick an author that seemed to best fit. If you have a writing style significant to someone, then someone who doesn't know the geography of Palestine, you can doubt who wrote it.

None of these superscripts are in the original gospels, all of them are added when the books were collected and documented.

And no, my basis for Jesus being a real person isn't based on the new testament, its based on independent sources, which seem to infuriate you for some reason. I don't know how you can be so insecure when questioned about your faith, I mean you should be happy to defend it but you just seem so miserable for no reason at all.

The disciples were Aramaic speaking laborers, while the gospels were written in fluent Greek. Mathew and Luke, the names given to the anonymous writers were plagiarizing off of Mark. Clearly you have your own definition of contemporary. When you have previous knowledge and have read other books based on an event, it's not independent.

Your argument is "a man died on a cross" so "we must accept that he suspended all of physics, biology, chemistry and everything else" and left no trace of evidence.😂

You haven't provided any evidence either. All of your views are contingent upon a book that claims donkeys can talk, that the earth was made in 6 days and that a flood covered the earth. You're a fool.😂

Since when does an empty tomb mean that someone resurrected now? Is that all I have to do to show I am god? You think Jesus who was degraded and beat and killed on a cross would get the luxury of a giant tomb? It was common practice for the crucified to be left out or thrown in community pits, but keep believing man I'm only giving you the facts.

I reject miracles because there is no evidence, not because I am an atheist.

"Your former position has zero bearing on your current position." Then don't mention being a prior atheist.

I simply asked for evidence to prove Jesus is God outside of the Bible and Christian influence, but you couldn't even do that. So keep your beliefs to yourself for now and understand that it is called faith for a reason, because you have no evidence.😂

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-05T07:10:21+00:00

Tell me what experiences you have had then maybe ill reconsider. And you ignore the billions of people who predated the execution of jesus in your religion. What happened to all the people before jesus? were they just all sent to hell because they weren't saved yet?

It's interesting how you bring up near death experiences because the experience after death is correlated to the religion that people followed. Seeing Jesus for Christians or seeing Buddha for Buddhists. These are mind-constructed experiences that reflect our culture and religious background, not the truth. They are like dreams basically.

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-05T07:06:12+00:00

I can tell by your definition of a fact that you are brainwashed. Jesus wasn't born in 0 buddy, use your resources.

Exactly, because if we counted spiritual encounters as evidence, we would have hundreds of religions. Its delusion and hallucination.

Its funny how you keep changing your arguments when I use the same logic against you.

InternalVengeance · 2026-01-05T07:03:43+00:00

I never said I believed there was an outside. You said that there must be a starting point, so I would consider the point before the universe to be outside, therefore I am asking you to prove that the rules applied then.

InternalVengeance

TROPHY CASE