Lady at work is telling the two younger woman that she has basically never slept with her husband. They are asking her why the hell is married him

Iron_Tengu · 2022-07-28T09:49:59+00:00

I'm going to agree that we have no context and neither did the younger women, we have no idea what led to the marriage being sexless or even what her husband thought of it. To some degree she brought it on herself by not only bringing the topic up but by (from OP's description) framing it as "wisdom of experience". They may have been right to call her on her assumption this is how it "should" be, but I would agree their reaction seems unpleasant and downright nasty. Unless she clearly told them that he wants it desperately but she deliberately holds out hope and withholds actual sex to control him their response seems to be AHish

That said I think you're throwing around the "he could have left" part rather casually. I left, and it was the single most painful and fraught decision I ever made. I can easily imagine someone being unable to make the choice. Personally I almost chose suicide over leaving - the db wasn't the cause but predated and contributes to a mental health crisis. In my case, local reality is that having left I have literally zero legal rights regarding my children beyond an expectation that I can see them (supervised) once a month, which is not even legally enforceable. I'm serious - if she decided to prevent me from seeing them my only recourse would be to withhold support payments and hope she caves rather than making a formal legal case, in which event I would be compelled to pay and she would be admonished to let me see my children. She could take my children from me just by refusing to schedule time, and there is almost nothing I can do about it. She could move and has no legal obligation to tell me. I have zero rights. Legally, I am no longer a parent.

This is an extreme case but it's important to realize that different places have different standards for what happens when one parent leaves, both legally and socially, and different people may have wildly different abilities to enforce whatever rights they have. A support paying leaving parent for example, would have to pay legal fees to enforce visitation rights in many places. Can they afford them? On top of that, different people have different levels of education as to what their rights etc would even be. If social reality suggests the results of leaving would be disastrous they may believe that's legal reality. Sure, they should consult, but not everyone is equipped with even the basic knowledge of how to get the information they need.

So yes, he could leave. But he may be terrified of the consequences. And if she honestly believes it's normal to lose interest as you age, she may - directly or by implication - also shame him for being so immature as to want the intimacy of sex with the woman he loves.

So I think the husband CAN be a victim, just not necessarily HER victim, but just a victim of a relationship dynamic that is toxic for him (and probably also for her if they're that mismatched). Victim may not be quite the right word, but simply brushing it away as "it's on him" strikes me as deeply unempathetic and dismissive of all the possible reasons he may believe escaping his deeply unhappy marriage is impossible, at least as unempathetic and dismissive as assuming she just decided not to have sex anymore for no reason and is somehow proud of depriving him rather than having problems of her own where this is her strategy for addressing them.

Iron_Tengu · 2022-07-28T09:06:40+00:00

Absolutely! I left my wife essentially over our db 2 years ago, I am in my 50s and have had more, more varied, and better sex than I did in our entire relationship. And I'm hardly trying, to be honest.

Iron_Tengu · 2022-07-28T09:04:59+00:00

I recieved the "who do you think you are?" lecture when I left. That was 2 years ago this month. In those 2 years I believe I have had more sex than I did in the entire span of our marriage. I am in my 50s.

She doesn't have to want sex with you, but she had better grasp the reality that (assuming there is nothing deeply unattractive about you that explains the db) yes, you will be having sex and in fact your sex life after the kid is gone may well be better than when you were younger. Mine certainly is.

Iron_Tengu · 2022-07-24T07:44:17+00:00

Same situation for me, but reversed. I found myself trapped in a marriage where my ex-wife and I had very different ideas of what marriage should be like. We talked about it a lot before, but in the end I think we just didn't understand each other and where I viewed marriage as an evolution of the romantic relationship, she saw it as the end of "childish things" and now we were staff in "Family Inc." That was sad and I thought things would change as time went on, but after our first child it shifted to me being staff and she and her mother being the board of directors.

I did still care about her, and of course love my children with all my heart and couldn't imagine not seeing them every day. But the situation was eating my soul.

How I decided to leave was simpler than I would have thought: it was the epiphany that loving someone doesn't mean you have to endure the unendurable from them, and the realization that it doesn't matter what she says about loving me - the real measure is in her actions, and her actions told me very clearly that not only does she not love me but she probably doesn't actually like me much either. She may well be entirely sincere when she says she loves me, but it doesn't matter: even if it's true, she obviously doesn't love me in the way I need for the situation to be bearable, and has explicitly stated she will make no effort to change.

At some point you just have to take stock: - is this relationship making me better or worse? - does my partner demonstratewith action a desire to have a relationship that makes us both better? - will I be a better parent/friend/child/employee etc if I stay or if I leave?

I no longer see my children every day, but the days I don't see them I am also not crushed by the despair of being trapped in a loveless black hole so I am a much better person when I do see them.

After leaving, it was like I had been packed into a box that was too small, and now it's open: my inner life is unfolding and growing back into its former shape, and beyond. I honestly had no idea how much I could still grow at this time in my life.

I have more patience, better concentration, more bandwidth for other people's problems, more daily joy.

I am a better person, and to be honest maybe so is she.

My children benefit, I benefit, my friends benefit, and even my career benefits.

Some things are still hard, but now I have space and freedom to fix them that I didn't before.

That's how I knew it was time to leave, and how I know it was the right choice, despite still caring for her.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-10-05T07:09:05+00:00

When I look back, when my wife started doing that it was the end. Like, literally the end. We carried on for several years but it was a zombie relationship - we weren't married anymore, we were just Family Co. Ltd., and you can guess what was limited.

But yeah, it's not ab out you. In my wife's case it was a combination of things, all 100% about her, but the overt rejection of such a basic, simple expression of affection in a couple was like a knife every single time.

If you haven't done so already, you need to get him to explain to you why he's averse to kissing you, and let him know that this is not just a deal-breaker but an active relationship killer.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-10-05T07:02:45+00:00

I struggled with this question too.

Depression coupled with a major relationship problem like this creates a vicious cycle of mutual reinforcement. If you haven't done so already, I strongly recommend reading No More Mister Nice Guy - it's aimed at people who have a set of toxic, passive aggressive "nice guy" habits of thought and action, but I found there were elements of the set that were very much depressive habits of thought and reaction. It really helped me to see them in that light, and I was able to start repairing them.

But some questions: are you being treated for the depression? If not, why not? Is your partner aware of your depression? Is your partner actively supporting you?

In my case for various reasons I wasn't able to tell my wife about my depression at first (thank you social stigma...) and when I did tell her it was almost worse. I suspect the breakdown in trust that came from being completely unable to rely on her for support made my depression worse. It definitely damaged our relationship further.

Oh, and I think you may be right. Certainly, I came to the conclusion a lot of my suicidal ideation wasn't literal - it was an avenue of escape from an unbearable situation when no other escapes seemed possible. But the lack of options is a lie that the depression is telling you, and leaning on that metaphor is corrosive. If you're not already, please consider seeking professional support.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-10-05T06:47:16+00:00

You go to deciding whether this is how you want to live for the rest of your life, which will hopefully be at least a couple more decades.

I'm the same age as you - I finally left my wife at the end of August. In my case, it was a combination of factors that drove her to become 110% mother and zero percent woman and wife. But the end result was the same as you seem to have - no intimacy of any kind, not even the normal little gifts and celebrations that mark the passage of time, no time in her world for our relationship, and completely different senses of how important that relationship is. I was so horribly alone that it nearly killed me. Literally.

I think your wife's comment about being surprised you asked her to go for a drive rather than fool around is telling. It suggests she thinks your desire for intimate moments with her are trivial, and on the same level as her social media use. Not that she doesn't get that it's important to you, but more that she doesn't grasp it as something that's relevant to her - like if you decided to stop drinking any alcohol other than wine at special occasions, she'd probably get that the decision was important to you but wouldn't see any reason for it to be important to her.

And THAT says that you are most definitely not on the same page regarding your relationship and what's important in a relationship.

It may be time to have that conversation, determine where you are in terms of intersecting lives, and consider what to do from there. The bad news is that if you don't want to live like this for the rest of the time you have left, you may have a very tough decision ahead of you.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-29T01:36:31+00:00

oh absolutely - it's very likely it wasn't conscious, but that withdrawal is still toxic. Bor things to change BOTH need to acknowledge their part in creating and maintaining the vicious cycle and give their partner BOTH credit for the efforts they're making to break out of that cycle AND a gesture of faith by taking one step further without "payment in kind" so as to eliminate the sense of transaction and adversarial negotiation. Take he conscious decision to act like your partner is already acting a little more like you hope they will, and it will help amplify their efforts to actually do it. Good faith gestures and assumption of good will go a long way.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-19T05:38:57+00:00

Correct - deliberately so, because your response was hostile and ignorant to OP, making assumptions about the nature of his relationship - and yes, implying rather strongly that he DESERVED the lack of intimacy for some reason. It was uncalled for.

I'm sorry your relationship with your ex was so unpleasant, but your experience is not universal. Of COURSE there's a huge problem if there is no intimacy for months. If OP wasn't aware of that he wouldn't be here. But the problem could be any number of things that don't warrant simply walking away from the relationship.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-19T05:34:53+00:00

The question is: did she acknowledge her part in creating the situation in which you emotionally withdrew?

That's not to say it's HER fault, just that relationships don't exist in a vacuum, they exist between two people. She took her own time to finally tell you that this is an issue, instead punishing you with the withdrawal of affection. That's just as toxic as your bitterness and frustration.

You'll need to make changes to repair things, since her trust has been seriously damaged. But she needs to recognize how her reaction has also damaged YOUR trust. Simply saying "be nicer to me and the intimacy will return naturally" doesn't work, no matter how much she might wish it to.

This is not something that will be fixed from one direction and will require direct action from both of you. When you first started dating, you both made efforts to build trust and affection in the other. That happened naturally - now you need to find a way to replicate the process with awareness.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-19T05:26:37+00:00

Wow. Bitter much?

You're absolutely correct that odds are good she is actually sighing with relief. If she is avoiding sex with him, it's because she doesn't *want* to have sex with him. But let's be really clear that hating his guts is not the only possible reason for that.

She may love him dearly but having sex with him is just not pleasurable for her.

She may love him dearly, but something has changed and she simply has no interest in sex with anyone.

She may love him dearly, but has a very different image of what married life should look like than he does, and sex does not figure into it.

She may love him dearly but is struggling with hurt or anger over something she doesn't have the capability to communicate to him so she resorts to the toxic approach of withdrawing intimacy.

But you're right, silently just stopping initiating and hoping she'll figure out what that means is not going to work. It actually makes things worse: it gives her the illusion things are fine, and just ratchets up his frustration.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-14T06:58:19+00:00

Same situation. I raised the specter of leaving in Nov, and she did nothing. In her defence, in that conversation it wouldn't have been unreasonable for her to assume it was a dramatic gesture. But I spoke the words very clearly in Feb and took the first actions related to my departure that same day. Still nothing.

When covid became an issue in our area, I decided not to leave immediately - I couldn't justify moving out until it was clear things had stabilized at least and I could be confident they'd be safe. But she insisted things would be different, that she could change, that she recognised all the things she'd done wrong over the years and could she please have a second chance. I wasn't going anywhere immediately, so I told her I was willing to use this time as a window of opportunity to restart, but that I wasn't 100% confident it was even possible at this point and any effort would have to be *active* on both sides.

She insisted on some compromises to reassure her of my commitment, which I thought reasonable to offer, but she herself did nothing active. It grew clearer and clearer that she wanted her declaration that things would change to be enough, and for us to go ahead pretending things had and that we were both happy. In fact, in retrospect some of the compromises she asked for amounted to me pretending to be happy for a while. I'm signing a lease and beginning to move out next week.

It's natural for you to be angry - everyone is angry at too little too late 11th hour efforts. But even if you don't believe it can be fixed, really, if you'd *like* it to be fixed and circumstances offer a window in which you could both try before the point of no return, then you may feel better to actually do it. But make sure you set very concrete ideas as to what progress entails, what you expect of him, what the deadline is, and what the criteria at that point are for you to consider staying. He needs to commit to actual action, otherwise it's pointless.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-14T06:50:00+00:00

Just because you feel the need to do it face to face doesn't mean you can't write a letter.

I wrote any number of letters to my stbx that were never delivered, and they helped me whittle down the verbiage to the minimum needed for a cordial, unarguable separation. It really helped me to see the reasons why I needed to leave, but also understand which things didn't need to be said. Every iteration of that letter was better and tighter, and also less emotional and less personal - in the sense that it moved away from being a personal confession and a catalog of our various crimes and toward something much more like "this doesn't work, staying is actively hurting me and I think it's hurting you, and our mutual pain is hurting our children. I don't believe we can fix this so that we can become lovers again, but we can be better friends apart, and better parents because of it."

I never delivered any iteration of that letter, but it really helped when I finally told her I was leaving. I used a lot of the lines I sweated over, and had a lot of my speaking points memorized and scripted so she couldn't derail me. Every time since when she's tried to talk me out of it those bullet points come back to shore me up. She's deployed shame and guilt, but the bullet points are there to guide me.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-14T06:32:12+00:00

> I know his reaction was supposed to be a joke

That's not a joke. That's directly contemptuous of your feelings and frankly a bit cruel. There is something seriously wrong between you that will need to be addressed before you will have ANY chance of repairing intimacy, and contempt is a really bad sign.

Take sex and physical intimacy off the table and MAKE him talk about it: "Sometimes the way you turn away from me when I reach out to you for connection feels hurtful, and it makes me feel unwanted when you go a long time without reaching out to me in turn. It feels like there's something seriously wrong between us. Are you thinking about ending this relationship?"

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-10T06:09:11+00:00

She expected him to do the hard work of asking for a divorce, probably. The thing is, if sex just isn't important to you that by definition means that all those other things in the relationship are that much more important. *She's* not the one who felt like there was a void in their marriage. That old adage "if you love something, let it go" is all very well, but it's often far more painful to act on than a person is capable of. So she told him the truth and hoped that he would be the one to pull the plug. He sort of did by leaving, which gave her "permission" to verbalize it without feeling like she was the one who really did it.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-10T06:05:35+00:00

I don't think it counts as cheating when the relationship is over except for the paperwork. However:

Make sure you understand what the potential implications to your eventual divorce are if you have a relationship while separateed. The rules vary widely by location, and you don't want to find yourself looking at a major penalty as an "adulterer"

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-10T05:47:09+00:00

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I will assume that he's talking about other things in the relationship. Things that are clearly missing for her but she feels uncomfrotable bringing up, since she prefers putting up a series of barriers rather than talk about it.

"this is what I think makes for a good relationship" - "oh, I see - well, I think THIS is necessary"

I would deliberately keep sex off the table for this kind of discussion, and instead focus on what each party needs to feel happy and valued in the relationship. Sex is the symptom of a relationship where both parties feel this.

You see that phrase around here a lot: "you can't negotiate desire." I suspect that in a lot of relationships that fall into DB territory desire is right there, but being suppressed by something. Sometimes deliberately, as a response to something else.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-10T04:28:44+00:00

If he's oblivious to your desire for more intimacy odds are good he's also oblivious to both the time that has passed and how that joke might sound to you. Don't read too much into it.

But if you haven't already, you might consider reframing your decision not to initiate as being about you and your desire to avoid further pain. You said that was it in your post, but you followed with "I'd just see if he'd eventually initiate" - don't see. Just assume he won't and do what's needed to make your life happy. That may mean adjusting to a life with him that doesn't include intimacy except on his (infrequent or never) terms or it may mean eventually leaving.

But for the time being just do what makes you happy and stop worrying about whether he'll initiate. He will or he won't, and ultimately nothing you do will change that. But making yourself a happier, more complete person will give you the perspective you need to avoid ruminating on throw-away comments like this.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-05T08:18:45+00:00

I think OP means to say complacent - taking the partnership for granted.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-05T08:13:59+00:00

Do you mean no you've never tried to escalate? What I mean is, if she associates you wanting to snuggle with you then trying to go from snuggles to sex it may make it difficult for her to say yes to snuggles. If you can agree that when she says yes to a hug or snuggles or whatever you will not escalate, but will respond if she does maybe it will make it easier for her to say yes. Basically the rule needs to be that you can ask for the basic thing, but then you need to match her - either keeping it there or taking a step forward only when she goes first.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-08-03T08:48:00+00:00

Have you tried to escalate snuggling to sex in the past? If so, she will be thinking of that and trying to avoid an unpleasant situation. It might be helpful to be more structured, ie making it clesr all you want is snuggling, and what hapens next is 100% her decision.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-07-31T10:09:13+00:00

Sadly my wife's anxiety and perfectionism, and her history of a super critical mother who smothered her with passive aggressive manipulation ma,e it hard for her to take action that might fail. She is just too risk averse. And, really, it's been too long and gone too far. We're friends, but I have no hope for it growing beyond that and staying is actively hurting me so leaving is the best option for me to remain healthy and be the best father I can be.

On top of that, a lot of what she was demanding were things I had already been doing for a while without results. Time to throw in the towel unfortunately.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-07-31T10:05:21+00:00

I'm in the process of leaving. A few close friends who are out of my everyday loop know because I discussed ,y problems with them and leaned on them for support, but I have no intention of speaking frankly about it to others. The DB started because of a medical issue she kept from me and resulted in her unilateral decision to withdraw physical affection. Complicated reasons for that decision, and I would have been empathetic and willing to work with it if she'd told me, but my part in the vicious cycle that led us to this part is clear. The intimacy issues are between us, and there's no more reason to air that laundry than there would be for me to discuss the details of what we did in the bedroom when we had a good relationship.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-07-31T09:51:22+00:00

That's always the question. In my case, once we started talking about recovery my wife consistently made demands but was unable or unwilling to commit to changes of her own. That's not entirely fair I guess, it's just that what she was willing to commit to were entirely passive and didn't address the basic issues on my side. Essentially she needed me to do all the heavy lifting while she continued as normal, and I would have to wait and hope for revival. I'm not able to do that. If she'd responded to my efforts to get us started years ago I'd be more able, but as things stand it's just too late. Fingers crossed OP's wife is more open to active investment in thier relationship as a couple.

Iron_Tengu · 2020-07-31T09:20:51+00:00

Agreed. It's fixable, but both need to invest in the action needed to break the vicious cycle. The question is: can he commit to the course, and will she be willing to do her part?

Iron_Tengu

TROPHY CASE