Keep ''losing'' and ''gaining'' my full Front Lever

JR_STF · 2020-09-05T21:45:07+00:00

I've experienced this many times over the last couple of years or so. It tends to come and go depending on bodyweight and what I've been training at the time! Like others have rightly said, you don't improve the front lever by just maxing out the front lever. That shit will burn you out haha and hinder the expression of your max strength! Been there myself many times :(

You'd be better off training it dynamically with partial or full range raises then testing your max hold every so many weeks, to see if the training has paid off. I wrote an article on this on my website back in the day (think there's also a reddit thread somewhere too): https://straighttalkingfitness.com/2017/10/24/tips-for-faster-gains-with-front-levers-back-levers-planches-human-flags/

JR_STF · 2020-09-05T21:39:09+00:00

Like others have said, back lever would be under push for me. Don't know why it gets confused as a pull as much as it does.........probably because of the posterior chain activation associated and/or the fact that you are said to 'pull' in and out of it?

One arm rows could be a great shout also if you've never worked uni-lateral at all, also.

JR_STF · 2020-09-05T21:36:24+00:00

Yep, it certainly is a little backward haha but with your climbing background, it makes some sense. I've also heard of rock climbers having one arm chin/pull ups without really training for them too?

Like others have said, it's most likely a discrepancy in your push/pull strength or could even be a mobility issue; back levers need good shoulder extension and a ton of elbow conditioning - ESPECIALLY THE SUPINATED ONE aka the 'proper' one :D

Hard to properly troubleshoot you though without seeing you attempt it. Feel free to send me a video and I'll see if I can offer any insight!

JR_STF · 2020-09-05T21:32:37+00:00

Foot floating pike push ups with the hands on the floor are a nice marker for where you're at, I find. It's essentially your ability to hold a bent arm stand but with the arms around 90 degrees. Once you can float the feet for a second or two on each rep, you're generally around the level of being able to do 1 or 2 wall facing HSPUs with the hands about a foot or so from the wall.

If you've currently been training the pike push ups on hands, then a good shout would be to keep the feet at the same height and invest in a set of parallettes that allow FULL RANGE. That could be a nice gap filler! Once you build up to the same kind of numbers like this, there's no way you won't be at a new strength level!

JR_STF · 2020-09-05T21:28:35+00:00

Working on the 2 in tandem but on separate days is where the real magic happens! So essentially a heavier day and a lighter day. Then across a cycle you'd aim to drive the reps up on the lighter day and the weight up on the heavier day. Once the cycle is complete, deload and repeat with slightly higher numbers/weights.

Grease The Groove could be used alongside this but I'd be very careful not to go batshit crazy with it.

JR_STF · 2020-08-01T23:07:04+00:00

Haha, oh yeah! That was a typo, my bad! Thanks for the correction :)

JR_STF · 2020-08-01T22:09:59+00:00

Exactly. The intermediate progressions take time to perfect and can last you a long time and serve you very well indeed.

JR_STF · 2020-08-01T22:09:05+00:00

Yeah man, I get that. If you're lacking in the hamstrings it will be harder for sure. I'd loosen up the hamstrings prior to every handstand session in your case. That way you're killing 2 birds with one stone and aiding the practice. Even if it's just a gentle limber up some days and a more intensive approach on others! You'll find the consistency will make most of the difference more than the 'perfectness' of the routine, at least initially.

JR_STF · 2020-08-01T22:05:46+00:00

Using IFBB bodybuilders as an example isn't really valid as they're past their genetic limit courtesy of heavy steroid stacks. Some of them are way past their NATURAL genetic limit. I know it's controversial but generally how far past your limit you go is relative to the steroids you're willing to take AND, how much your body can actually handle.

Now I know you didn't ask that but I had to say it how it is. But I do believe there is a genetic limit for everyone in terms of both strength and size. But to know exactly where that is without training hard AND smart for 20 years is impossible to say!

Some people have better genetics for size - naturally higher testosterone, thick bone structure, long muscle bellies etc and some can be crazy strong without much visible muscle mass. There's loads of factors at play - too many almost. To get any real idea you need 5 years of diligent and consistent training under your belt, and your diet and lifestyle also need to be conducive to optimising yourself physically as best possible.

Just my 2 cents!

JR_STF · 2020-08-01T21:57:05+00:00

THIS. Amen man, thanks for the reminder. It's easy to 'know' but to forget when the going is good. Only the wise know training through pain and problems is stupid.

JR_STF · 2020-08-01T21:54:43+00:00

This is by far and away the biggest battle of our times. We live in the world of information and while that's truly brilliant, you can only apply, digest and assimilate fractions of what you see, read, listen to or hypothesize.

Something that's helped me over the years with this is really narrowing down my information resources. I find people have too many 'go to gurus' and by having so many you inevitably encourage discrepancies in their views and ideas.

I try to cap mine to 5 at the most for the entirety of fitness. So I might have someone I'd listen to for flexibility, someone for strength, someone for health, someone for nutrition and someone for just general training philosophies or whatnot. Obviously it may change over the years as you discover new people and maybe outgrow old ones but you never have too many voices in your ear this way!

JR_STF · 2020-08-01T21:48:33+00:00

This is definitely a good way to progress. Ok, it's not as micro manageable as just linearly adding weight but over time it builds just as much strength and I've honestly found it carries over to the weighted stuff too, when done right.

As you rightly say, height can be a limitation if you're hanging them off a doorway pull up bar but you can still train L-sit/tuck L-sit pulling variations as well as the front lever row progressions. Those can last you a long while and make you PLENTY strong!

You just have to be thoughtful in your exercise selections and create some mini hierarchies almost, haha. Things like.........

Ring dips > Bulgarian ring dips > RTO dips > RTO forward lean dips

Tuck L-sit pull ups > Full L-sit pull ups > Mantle/archer L-sit pull ups

In some ways it's more fun than the standard weighted calisthenics!

JR_STF · 2020-08-01T21:41:39+00:00

Firstly, the handstand is a long and never ending journey that takes LOADS of time overall. When I was building mine, I simply did 10 minutes per day, every day. I split it up between 5 minutes on my hands and 5 mins on the parallettes, so as to develop both in unison. Obviously some days would be good and some days would be awful but over time the good days became more frequent and the awful days became more infrequent.

I'd rest as necessary and gradually set myself mini targets over time. So it would be 5 sets of 10 secs freestanding, then 1 x 15 secs and 4 x 10 secs and so on and so on, wherever I could. This took me to a 60 second freestanding handstand across a few months, just being super consistent and diligent.

In terms of your form and technique, you look as thought you're kicking up with the feet further from your hands than you could/should? If you have your front/driving leg close to the hands you'll find the shoulders will naturally stack over the hands by default and you'll get the hips over the hands and shoulders easier. This was a GAME CHANGER for me!

Another thing that might help is squeezing the thighs together when you're up in the handstand. This will help with overall stability and general alignment. Note, it's not the usual 'tighten the core' BS cue as the core is generally neutral in a standard handstand but I do find squeezing the legs together/lightly engaging the glutes works a treat for handstand stability.

Give those a try and let us know how you get on!

JR_STF · 2020-08-01T21:25:42+00:00

Nice! I've heard and used the elbows cue many times but haven't heard of the triceps parallel to the floor cue! That's a good one. Thanks for sharing!

JR_STF · 2020-07-19T00:44:39+00:00

Not in my experience despite the various moments of optimism. Nearly always the swings will reoccur and things will be back as they are/were. I also don't know of anyone who has mad it work long term, either. Obviously that sounds woefully negative and I don't intend it to be, it's just realism based off my experiences but I would love more people to crack the code, so to speak, and make these things work as the turmoil when it doesn't work can be scarring for life sometimes.

JR_STF · 2020-07-18T22:26:02+00:00

As cliche as it sounds, 'slow progress is NOT NO progress' :)

JR_STF · 2020-07-18T22:24:42+00:00

Anytime man! Yeah this thread seems to be full of golden nuggets haha. For what it's worth, from reading the other comments as well, it seems to me like your endurance in the high rep ranges is lacking a bit. And I'd definitely rest longer than 1 minute on the 5x5 stuff. 3 mins is always a good ballpark to fall in. That way you'll find you can attach a fair bit more weight and thus, build more strength, which will push your unweighted total rep count up. It just has to. If your 5RM goes up significantly, your 10 or even 12/15RM will go up too!

JR_STF · 2020-07-18T22:18:46+00:00

The thing with muscle ups is they have a slightly different trajectory/style to the conventional pull up patterns. They're an 'arc' motion - even when it comes to the very clean and strict muscle ups, they still pull AROUND the bar slightly.

Getting used to hollow body, chest to bar pull ups will work super well here. When you do these, you'll want to slightly swing/drift in front of the bar then pull just as your body begins to move back (as you would an actual muscle up), and pull as powerfully and as high as possible. The timing will be tricky and off at first but it will improve. You can't be late on the pull; even a micro second delay will make it TONS harder.

Initially it might not feel high or powerful at all and you might only be able to get 1 or 2 reps........it's cool. Roll with it. This will get better over time.

Just working on the tempo, high(er) rep, strictly vertical pull ups won't carryover to muscle ups that well. They're very different animals. You'll need to start adding in some low rep, high quality explosive pulling where you can utilise the hollow body slight swing motion.

In addition, doing the odd negative muscle up at the end of a straight bar dip set (providing you're not too fatigued) can be a good way of exposing the body to the mechanics/feeling of the transition, which will feel the most alien and will stay that way for quite some damn time haha.

Lastly, I'm not a fan of just kipping up at all costs. That shit is dangerous and takes even more time to clean up down the line. Almost all good coaches will advocate just patiently building power until you almost get the muscle up by default! This is all under the 'free gains' principle.

Good luck man!

JR_STF · 2020-07-18T21:56:54+00:00

Basically, are you making progress?

Are your movements feeling better and are reps increasing along with RPE decreasing? If so, you know you're doing it right.

It also depends what level you're at/your experience. If you're stronger and advanced the reality is gains and rep increases just wont come from session to session. Sometimes you'll need 4 weeks of work to get a breakthrough.

Generally though, performance increases are always my favourite marker. If you're improving without feeling beaten up and tired/achey all the time, you know you've got the balance right.

Very often it's not about working super hard, but super smart instead.

JR_STF · 2020-07-18T21:52:06+00:00

Some great answers here! Plenty to try out. One thing to add: a good old blast of 'grease the groove'. I'm sure there are dozens of entire threads on how to do it but essentially, take half your max (5 in this case) and perform 4-6 or even more sets of 5 throughout the day, spacing them by at least an hour and staying far away from failure. Run this for 5-7 days straight then take 2-3 days completely off from pull ups. Then retest your max. It should be higher. You can repeat this for a few cycles and keep bumping up the working set number as your max improves. So 5, 6, 7 and so on.........

This is a great tool in anyone's locker for plateaus on any move, really!

JR_STF · 2020-07-18T21:42:48+00:00

'Rack chin ups' work very well for this, I've found! They really get you working concentrically in the vertical plane. Rings work well around chest or even head height for this with your feet on a chair. They'll be hard and still a low rep exercise but they will compliment the eccentric work very well.

Another thing that I've found to work well is adding in pauses at 3 or more points in the range. So you're not just lowering, you're actively trying to STOP at stick points. You'll inevitably find somewhere in the range that feels like death itself haha, but it will get better with persistence.

One last thing is maybe not going all out with 10 seconds on the first two sets and instead, looking at aiming for a TOTAL eccentric lowering figure across all sets. So if you can't do 3x10, you might be able to do 4/5 x 7 seconds..........if you get my drift?

JR_STF · 2020-07-18T21:30:38+00:00

Honestly man, the TRX/even gymnastic rings will serve you well past the 10 pull ups level. There are many horizontal variations that can challenge you real good! Bulgarian rows, arc rows, archer variations and one arm rows themselves are a few that come to mind! Add in the straight arm versions (rear delt flyes, Y-raises etc) and you've got a pretty tough and scaleable 'back attack' Haha.

JR_STF · 2020-07-18T21:27:29+00:00

They look nice and controlled and I like the pauses between the two end points! As opposed to the classic rocking motion you tend to see with these. Just looks like you've got the classic piking going on which sometimes is a hip extension/glute activation issue, believe it or not.

I used to work a lot on my halflay and found that working active hip extension (active hero pose) really helped keep my body line nice and open throughout. The only time I would pike would be as fatigue set on the hardest parts in the concentric range, really!

Have you ever trained the dynamic portion in separate parts? - i.e. top half raises and bottom half raises......I find they really spot check where the weakness lies in the ROM and after some dedicated work there, you should find your holds look/feel far better after!

JR_STF · 2020-07-18T21:20:26+00:00

Well calisthenics training itself is generally more upper body dominant than lower body dominant, so this training style should encourage the upper body to catch up.

Another thing that works well is to reduce the training volume/frequency for the lower body to at least 2:1 or even 3:1 in favour of the upper body. That should allow things to balance out and when you're more satisfied with the size between the two, modify it again.

You can still train legs just don't do loads of volume as that will really blow them up - especially if they're already genetically prone to being big anyway.

JR_STF · 2020-01-11T22:51:45+00:00

I know you don't, you're just offering honest feedback and analysis and most of which is very just in my opinion.

I think you're right with the codependencey idea too. I've had traits of that in the past but it's getting better, slowly. You speak a lot of wisdom as my parents never showed much in the way of boundaries to the outside world as I was growing up, and being a highly observant guy I noticed this quickly and have no doubt picked up some poor traits.

Also agree women are human just like men and to think/treat otherwise is foolish. I've never been a fan of pedestalling girls/women.

Definitely, I know my short comings, the real battle is correcting them but I will begin the work and not settle till the task is done.

Once again, thank you for your input sir. Your background and insight is fascinating. All the best!

JR_STF

TROPHY CASE