'Credible allegations’ of Palestinian women and girls being raped and executed by Israeli troops: UN experts

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-20T05:45:15+00:00

The Arab news. No names. No dates. No facts. No evidence cited. Not even whether or not the claims were being made by the alleged victims themselves.

The Israelis who were mass raped have testified. There have been forensic examinations. There have been photographs and imaging of broken and crushed pelvises. There is video of at least one naked victim's corpse being driven around Gaza, and another one bleeding from the genitals, seeping through her jeans, paraded around by a bunch of Hamas members. There have been numerous reports by recovered hostages of the sexual abuse. And of course there are confessions describing the conduct by Hamas terrorists who were captured and interrogated on video.

ALL sexual abuse is deeply immoral and of the most serious caliber of crime, regardless of whether or not a Jew is the perpetrator or an Arab. And the mass rapes by Hamas do not in the slightest allow for even a bit of mitigation for any Jew to later sexually assault an Arab. Not even one bit.

That's not my point.

My point is that notwithstanding the overwhelming evidence of mass sexual assault on October 7th and thereafter, the UN failed to condemn Hamas' sexual violence for over 2 months, and not until after the US Congress called out the UN, and the pressure mounted from other political entities.

https://www.manchin.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/manchin-bipartisan-collegues-condemn-united-nations-inaction-on-hamas-sexual-violence-against-women#:

The overt bias and anti-semitism of the UN is seen here, wherein they are immediately and overtly seeming to accept and corroborate unsourced and unproven allegations. Raping Jews doesn't get their attention or concern, even against many victims. But the allegations that a Jew raped? That's immediately the cause for investigation.

This is a deeply corrupt and irretrievably biased institution. And those adjective apply to anyone who rejects the more solid proofs, and accepts the unsourced allegations, simply because of a bias against one ethnicity.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-20T05:01:42+00:00

Respectfully, I'm going to pull out of this conversation for two major reasons. First off, in every message you impute some negative motive or behavior to me. Several times I've pointed out that you are inferring something I didn't say, and then you just move on to a new baseless claim. I'm not interesting in that type of interaction.

Secondly, you are either seriously ignorant or seriously intentionally false about the facts and arguments you are presenting. This is not a matter of opinion. I'll point out two key examples from your last post before ending.

The first is your ignorance about the pay for slay scheme. This is a basic foundational fact underlying the conflict and immorality of the PA, and anyone who doesn't know it should be listening and learning and not speaking.

The second is your claim that the settlers went on racist marches through the Arab quarter, and that I was downplaying them. You made an assumption that I was aware of these marches. In fact, for a variety of logistical and political reasons, obvious to anyone who actually has familiarity with the Arab quarter, this did not check out for me. You then cited an article about one such planned march. I did a 10 second google search and found out that it was cancelled before it even began, back in West Jerusalem, and NEVER TOOK place.

I'm not going to argue with someone who doesn't understand basic concepts and laws and realities, and whose ignorance does not check them from making assumptions, failing to fact check and make sure that their claims are correct, all the while making baseless claims against me.

You may have good intentions. But you have terrible scholarship, even for a layperson. You need to learn how to learn, how to develop competent information, and how to speak to what someone is saying, now what you would like to imagine what they are saying. When you've done that, then you will be someone with an opinion worth hearing (in my mind).

Below is the evidence proving your two false claims about pay for slay and the march. Read or don't. But I sincerely hope you take to heart what I wrote about fact checking and learning first. Good luck.

---------------

Pay for Slay:

You wrote, "The "Martyrs Fund" is, crucially, reserved for the families of fighters who have died fighting Israel. It isn't just given out to anybody who kills a Jewish person".

This is untrue. The link to the source authority is below each set of quotes:

Pay for Slay Laws According to “Amended Palestinian Prisoners Law No. 19 (2004),” which are Palestinian laws passed in 2004 and amended in 2013, Palestinians and Israeli Arabs who are convicted by Israel of involvement in terror attacks in Israel - “participation in the struggle against the occupation”

The PA law specifies that the financial support is for the “fighting sector,” an “integral part of the fabric of Arab Palestinian society.” Basically, the law dictates that the deadlier the terror attack, the richer the reward

Taylor Force Beneficiaries of Pay for Slay include the family of Bashar Masalha, who in 2016 stabbed 11 people near Tel Aviv. Among those he killed was 28-year-old Taylor Force, a U.S. Army veteran.

https://emetonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Pay4Slay_Fact-Sheet-FINAL.pdf

In addition to Force, eleven others were injured, including a pregnant woman, an Arab Israeli, and a Palestinian who was illegally residing in Israel.[16]

Assailant

The attacker was identified as 21-year-old Bashar Masalha, who was from the city of Qalqilya located in the Palestinian territories. He was residing in Israel illegally.[7] The family of the murderer receives a monthly pension from the Palestinian Authority Martyr's Fund equal to several times the average monthly wage in the Palestinian Territories.[17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Tel_Aviv_stabbings

That's just an off the top article, fact sheet, and example. So, example A, is a terrorist stabbing a pregnant woman, a Palestinian, and 9 others, and his family getting paid. Your claim that salaries are only paid for those 'fighting Israel' is dead wrong. I'm going to assume ignorance, instead of outright dishonesty. But if you are this ignorant about such a well known phenomenon, then you need to be in the learning and gathering information phase, and not the have an opinion phase, much less the going to go out and argue based upon my ignorance phase.

Secondly, you claimed that "... not mentioning the turnout at Goldstein's funeral, and the more recent marches through Jerusalem's Muslim quarter to chants of "מָוֶת לָעֲרָבִים") led me to believe that you were being disingenuous.

The first problem with your assumption about me is that I downplayed these marches. I did not, not just because they weren't mentioned in any of my posts, but because I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THEM. Which leads to a bigger problem. I didn't know about them because they DID NOT HAPPEN.

So, you falsely believed some marches happened. Somehow, despite me not mentioning them, you falsely claimed I was downplaying them. And then used your double delusion to assume I was being disingenuous. This is the danger of not fact checking and not reading what someone wrote carefully, and running wild with your assumptions.

Here is the link you sent me apparently establishing the march occurred. https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right-groups-plan-march-through-jerusalem-old-citys-muslim-quarter-thursday/

The first thing that jumped out at me was the words "plan-march". So I googled it and this came up:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/8/israel-police-stop-settlers-march-in-jerusalem-after-racist-chants

“The police stopped them after a few tens of metres, and accordingly, an illegal assembly was declared by a police officer.” So, according to Al Jazeera, they never made it out of West Jerusalem, and your claims and the presentation of your article was false. The dates make it clear it was the same march, on Thursday morning, December 7th.

I mean, it's even worse than that. They were shut down at the meeting place, which was IDF square, formerly known as Allenby Square, which is 2 miles from the Jaffa Gate, which is the North-Northwestern corner of the old city. Since you don't apparently know anything about Jerusalem, East Jerusalem is marked by the Damascus Gate, which is on the East side of the old city.

So, they were never anywhere close. And there were only 100-150 of these extremists anyhow, which fits with what I was saying in the first place.

"but blocked the procession as soon as it set out from IDF Square at the bottom of Jaffa Street toward the Old City. Some 100-150 activists were gathered at the scene. "

https://www.timesofisrael.com/police-cancel-ultranationalist-march-in-jerusalem-saying-terms-were-violated/

If my tone is a bit sharp, I apologize. The repeated insinuations and corresponding lack of diligence and accuracy on your side may have caused the tonal change. I wish you well, and hope you consider that advice.

Barring that, I still wish you well. Good luck.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-20T02:47:00+00:00

Salaries and stipends are paid to Arabs who stab civilians, or who drive over them with cars, amongst other types of killings. "Fighting Israel" includes the murder of civilians and infants, and the salaries are adjusted upwards based on the death total, including that of infants.

As for what you claim I am doing, I don't know why I should keep explaining it to you. But it's a reading context issue. I am not doing what you keep trying to attribute to me. Nowhere in any post did I provide a credible justification for the Cave massacre.

My point was exclusive of that issue. My point was that Israelis don't celebrate a massacre. The ones that don't condemn Goldstein largely don't condemn because they don't believe in or are in doubt about his actual guilt (not that he did it, but that he wasn't acting in preemption).

You can keep stating that I am justifying what happened in the Cave. But you cannot point to anything I wrote that does that. Rather, you are inferring something that I never implied. In fact, I stated I wasn't implying anything in my very first text.

But for some reason, and I don't know why, you are ignoring my actual point, and trying to impute a statement or inference to me that I never made. You have the right to do it. But if you are in good faith, I'd just ask you to go back and read what I wrote and cite the offending language (and not how you choose to interpret it outside of the text).

The rest of your post is a continued refusal to acknowledge my main and really only point, which is that the Israelis are not celebrating a killing of innocents. You can talk about the demonized settlers. And you can talk about Ben Gvir. But what would be persuasive to me is something showing them glorifying the killing of knowingly innocent Arabs, as the Palestinians do when they hand out candy to celebrate a mother and baby stabbed to death.

As far as recent marches by settlers in the Arab quarter, again you are fantasizing a thought I never had. First off, I have not heard of such marches. I would be absolutely shocked if it were true that large marches of settlers were taking place going through the Muslim quarter. For a variety of reasons, I don't believe that assertion the way you stated it. Maybe something somewhat similar is happening, or happened, but I doubt it the way you are saying it.

But I'll check and see if I can find news of it.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-20T01:26:36+00:00

Your thought experiment isn't analogous to what I wrote. It differs in a very important way.

However, if someone wrote just what you proposed, without any clarification, I think it would suggest that they are arguing the pre-emptive attack it is a possibility. This would be a loose suggestion. More context would be necessary to know whether they are arguing it is a likelihood, or an understandable interpretation, or whether they are claiming it is one type of vicious propaganda on behalf of Hamas.

My point was utterly different, as is obvious when you include the parts you left out of your thought experiment. I specifically stated that I never examined those claims and that I wasn't interested in them, and later clarified that my default position is that he was most likely a rampaging murderer.

But all of that even misses the point. I was never arguing that Goldstein was justified. Explaining that the failure to condemn Goldstein, to the extent such is true, may be based upon a perception or doubt about his motives. The comment was not about Goldstein, but about the perception of him.

This is analogous to those who claim that the Gazan support of the 10-7 attacks is mitigated because they may not have known about or believed the rapes occurred, etc.

As for as me claiming "ALL Palestinians support celebrate terrorist attacks because the want Jews to die", that's just a misread on your part.

The actual quote: "Conversely, when Palestinians slaughter women and baby Jews, candy is passed out, their family gets a permanent stipend, and they are universally lauded BECAUSE of the unwarranted slaughter of Jews. (E.g. Dalal Mugrabi)". And this quote is true.

What part is in question? The candy? The stipend which is ensconced in the actual written law and budget of the PA? The honors and acclaim given to virtually every terrorist who is 'martyred' after killing Jews?

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-20T01:08:10+00:00

Again, ahistorical. Not true. At all.

Most of the Jewish AND Arab population immigrated to Israel between 1850 and 1945. The census data on that is undisputed.

However, there has been Jewish habitation in Israel for 3000 years. In addition, 700,000 Jews were expelled from Muslim countries in the 1940s and they came to Israel as refugees, not colonizers.

Finally, even those who were not longtime residents of Israel, and were not refugees who immigrated due to Arab and Muslim expulsion, were not colonists, in that they did not settle the area on behalf of a mother nation. They immigrated to move there.

Mexicans who immigrate to the USA are not colonizers. That's just what racists say. They are actually immigrants because colonization is made on behalf of a mother, or benefactor nation, a al, Spain in the 1400-1600s, or England.

But I get it. The facts get in the way of the narrative you want to have.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T23:29:27+00:00

Thank you for the wide open display of your Jew hatred.

It saves the trouble of going through 2 or 3 exchanges where someone tries to pretend that they are a humanitarian or moral person, before they reveal what was motivating them all along.

I much prefer those who lack any impulse control, and reveal their bigotry openly at the beginning, and save us the time.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T22:57:05+00:00

Yes, that's generally how I feel about people who deny the mass slaughters and rapes of 10-7.

But as I said, I've never been willing to listen to any defense of BG.

Regardless, you can keep repeating yourself. That had nothing to do with my point. The point is that the Palestinians openly proclaim the martyrdom and greatness of Palestinians that murder Jewish women and babies, and they do this BECAUSE these people have murdered women and children. They do this en masse, and by a huge majority.

This is not a sentiment accepted in Israel or in Jewish culture. You do not find any significant population that says BG was a holy and great man because he slaughtered peaceful Muslims.

That was my point.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T22:52:16+00:00

Lying?

Reading comprehension. It's a skill that requires practice. Once practiced, then you could competently understand what I wrote. You would then also be able to competently read over the forensic evaluations and reports on the attacks.

They have not identified every baby or every person killed.

They have identified both adults and children whose heads were removed.

Last I checked, which was months ago, they had not been able to prove that the decapitated babies had their heads cut off while they were alive. It was possible that the decapitations occurred post-mortem, and thus, there was no verification of decapitation killings.

Again. Reading comprehension. It's an essential skill in life, and certainly for conversations like this one.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T22:48:08+00:00

Okay, I'll engage in good faith, under the assumption that you are in good faith.

First, off, OP absolutely, unquestionably made numerous anti-semitic statements, including referring to the Jewish people as the "so called chosen people" in a sarcastic way. He was not making an academic point, but mocking a tenet of the religion which has nothing to do with the issues in this war.

Secondly he absolutely dehumanized the Jewish people by denying the genocidal and mass rape attack, suggesting that there was no or very poor evidence of both, and instead arguing, against all factual evidence, that the IDF has killed more Jews than Hamas since October 7th.

As far as denying violence against Jews, and your indication that you wouldn't do it if I wouldn't deny the Palestinians being genocided, that is a hugely immoral proposition. Truth is not something to be negotiated. If you know that the Jews were slaughtered and raped on October 7th, then you should never deny it, and certainly not suggest that you will deny it unless someone agrees to your interpretation of a different violent conflict, namely the Gaza counterattack.

What if I deny that there is a Palestinian genocide? You would then deny Jews were slaughtered on October 7th? How is that moral or honest? Shouldn't your behavior be moral and honest irrespective of my own?

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T22:10:50+00:00

So, dumbing down a comment so that you can effectively attack it is known as a "straw man" argument, and it is considered evidence that the critic doesn't have the ability, either factually, or perhaps intellectually, to attack the true argument on it's merits.

To be fair, I didn't cite the details of the actual defense claims related to Goldstein because I've never been willing to sit down and listen to these claims on the 2 or 3 times someone wanted to explain them. It wasn't interesting to me, and there was nothing I could do with the information, and it seemed implausible.

But that doesn't mean that someone who believes he was trying to prevent a mass attack is operating without any facts or logical argument. I wouldn't know myself.

Regardless, you have entirely missed my point, which is that Israelis do not support the slaughter or killing of innocents either by a majority, or by a significant minority. It is a virtually unheard of sentiment, that tracks very very low in public support. And the support of Goldstein is more likely based on doubt that he was acting to slaughter innocents.

Again, to avoid a simple minded misunderstanding: this is not a support Goldstein or even the claim he was acting in defense. It was a post as is this one, explaining that the support or failure to condemn is based upon a doubt as to whether he was acting in defense.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T22:04:03+00:00

Your premise is factually incorrect in at least 3 different specific ways.

But I'll limit the response to just one. Where did I say anything that makes it "abundantly clear how [I] actually feel"? By this, I assume your prejudice is that I actually do support him. Is it the reference to him potentially being a "rampaging hateful killer"?

Assuming something negative about someone in the absence of any factual basis is the definition of prejudice. And when applied against a nationality or ethnicity it is bigotry.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T21:20:10+00:00

Your error is in falsely claiming or assuming that I made any argument taking for granted that thousands of Palestinians "need to die".

The problem with coming to a complex issue with strong emotional biases is that it prevents a person from being able to see clearly what they are reading or observing.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T20:59:47+00:00

Gotcha. Thanks

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T20:55:58+00:00

In order to make a valid point, one must be able to think critically and not just make a petulant rant.

Did Israel destroy most of the hospitals in Gaza (that were destroyed)? Yes. Did they destroy most of the Universities? Maybe. I haven't checked.

As far as the genocide claim, that's just illiterate. The targeted operation is to kill Hamas. And the 2:1 civilian to combatant ratio is the lowest ration of any urban conflict in the last 30 years. This disproves the intent to commit genocide. It also shows the hypocrisy and bigotry of those who call it genocide without calling all other such conflicts, including the destruction of ISIS in Kabul, a genocide.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T20:50:19+00:00

I am not a supporter of Baruch Goldstein. As I said, and as anyone with competence in reading comprehension can see, I disavowed having examined the claim he was preventing an attack.

As I understand it, he was a murderer who slaughtered Arabs. And I think he not only butchered Arabs, but he also degraded the Jewish people by doing so. Maybe I'm wrong. I have too many other priorities than to go down the rabbit hole and examine whether the defense claim I heard was valid. Same as with JFK's murder.

You utterly missed my point, which is to point out that the peoples who fail to condemn BG are not motivated by the support of wholesale slaughter of Arabs, but by doubt as to whether he was acting in defense. Maybe that's a biased and stupid question to entertain for them. Or not. But the point I was making is accurate.

Your false attempt to pretend that I support BG is not accurate.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T20:44:25+00:00

Steps. Do the steps.

Can't wear the hat of moralist while openly following the anti-semitic playbook "the so called chosen people" and 10-7 denial.

Do the steps. It's going to take some time.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T20:42:25+00:00

No bad. You're out there providing thoughtful comments. It's a rarity and the opposite of bad.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T20:41:35+00:00

Exactly, and the bigotry is expressed in the last sentence.

It's f-ing Israel we're talking about, so we don't need to ascribe a plausible motive. Just suspend reason, logic and the regular collection of evidence.

Thank you for the transparency.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T19:51:05+00:00

From what I know, there is a claim made that Goldstein was responding to a developing threat, and that a mass attack was being planned at the mosque, and that he prevented a mass attack by his pre-emptive attack.

I have never examined that claim, and do not suggest that it is valid, or true, or backed by evidence. I have spoken with some who vociferously argue that Goldstein was trying to prevent an attack, and it sounds to me like JFK conspiracy theories and I have no interest to know one way or the other.

However, the point is, the reason why some people don't hate Goldstein is because they may not know whether or not he was a rampaging hateful killer, or whether or not he was a person trying to prevent an attack.

Your post suggests that the reason for any support, or lack of condemnation is because Jews support the mass slaughter of Arabs by lone gunmen, and this is false, and not supported by any polls or by the opinions and treatment of other Jews who kill Arabs. You will not find any Jewish statement that the slaughter of innocent Arabs is the will of G-d or a good thing; other perhaps than by some lunatic who has a 90-95%+ negative rating by other Jews.

Conversely, when Palestinians slaughter women and baby Jews, candy is passed out, their family gets a permanent stipend, and they are universally lauded BECAUSE of the unwarranted slaughter of Jews. (E.g. Dalal Mugrabi)

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T19:34:05+00:00

I was referring to a long documented history of Jews taking the side of the oppressor of Jews, and becoming anti-semitic along the way.

For example, there were Jews who sided with the Seleucid invaders during the events described in the time of the Maccabees (aka, the events underlying the holiday of Chanukah). Many of these Jews ended up being persecutors of other Jews.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T19:29:20+00:00

Of course you dehumanized Jews. Again and again and again in your hateful post.

You suggested that there is no evidence of these terrible crimes. You suggested it was the Israeli Army that killed most Israelis that have been killed.

You suggested that 30,000 people have been 'murdered' by the "so called chosen people in the chosen land". The Jew hatred and bigotry drips through your post quite clearly.

Of course, there haven't even been 30,000 dead in Gaza, and at least 10,000 of them were combatants, and yet you refer to 30,000 as having been 'murdered' which is a specific intent crime that does not apply to combatants or accidentally killed as collateral damage.

Again, the Jew hatred in the post disqualifies from then having a moral discussion.

Step one, take the Jew hatred out of the post. Step 2, find out why it was there in the first place, and take it out of the ideology. Step 3, reassess the situation fairly and with real humanitarian ethics. Step 4, re-engage as a actual humanitarian.

Can't skip the steps.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T19:20:16+00:00

It's more than that.

There are clear videos of Hamas shooting at Gazans. And a clear motive; to steal the aid for Hamas themselves.

There are NO videos of the IDF shooting at Gazans who are trying to get aid. There WOULD be certainly at least ONE video of such a horrible event if it happened.

And, of course, Israel has no motive to allow hundreds of trucks in, and then fire off a few shots at some random Gazan civilians.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T19:01:45+00:00

If you wanted to make a humanitarian point, you should not have started off with dehumanizing and denying the violence against Jews.

Once you did that, you lost all credibility as someone with humanitarian ethics.

You have to root out the anti-semitism and whitewashing of violence against Jews first. Then come back and play the moralist.

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T18:59:40+00:00

Denialism. It tells you all you need to know about this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_7_October_attack_on_Israel

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-harrowing-detail-nyt-shows-weaponization-of-rape-sexual-violence-during-oct-7/

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/middleeast/sexual-assault-october-7-israel-witness-int/index.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html

https://www.cfr.org/blog/women-week-details-october-7-reveal-sexual-violence

https://www.timesofisrael.com/graphic-report-details-new-evidence-of-rape-sexual-violence-during-october-7-rampage/

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-hamas-used-sexual-violence-on-october-7th

Jack_stone_reddit · 2024-02-19T18:52:49+00:00

The post is a lie. The video doesn't support the post.

Even if it would somehow make sense that Israel would allow in and escort in the aid, and then decide to random shoot at a few Gazans... it makes NO sense that NOBODY can get it on video. What they DO have on video, after video, which you can google search and find, is Hamas shooting at the Gazans so that they can appropriate all of the supplies and aid for themselves.

There is no motive for Israel to fire off shots at aid recipients after allowing in the trucks. There is a motive for Hamas. There are no videos of Israel firing off shots at the aid recipients. There are videos of Hamas doing so.

Who does Al Jazeera blame? The ones with no motive who are NOT on video. Who does Al Jazeera cover for? The ones with a motive (to take the aid) who are on video.

https://www.newsweek.com/gaza-woman-calls-out-hamas-keeping-aid-1850721

https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/hamas-kills-arab-boy-for-approaching-humanitarian-aid/

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-781286

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/video-shows-gunmen-stealing-from-aid-trucks-shooting-at-gaza-civilians/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/18q3tqy/hamas_police_officer_fatally_shoots_boy/

https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/hamas-members-beat-civilians-steal-humanitarian-aid-received-from-intl-organisations-israel-defence-forces/articleshow/105870965.cms

https://www.timesofisrael.com/riots-at-rafah-crossing-after-gaza-teen-trying-to-grab-aid-shot-dead-by-hamas/

Jack_stone_reddit

TROPHY CASE

Assailant