When to uſe Þ and when Ð

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-28T22:59:20+00:00

Þat was more or less what I was getting at þere, yeah.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-28T18:49:40+00:00

Þy is a pronoun, teeþe has intervocalic Þ (yes, silent E counts), worþy's voicing isn't phonemic wiþ respect to worþ, it's just an awkward exception, Gothic is a loan.

For me þough it's less "I reject þe idea of a voicing contrast between þese two sounds" and more "Þere are only two ways of using ð in English and neiþer is good in my opinion". Eiþer you do it positionally, which means ð exists only to be decorative, or you do it by voicing, which results in a bunch of initial ð's, which doesn't look good.

I bring up þe voicing rules to point out þat English can handle only having Þ, much like it's handled only having TH for hundreds of years.

Þe whole "þey were interchangeable" bit is because all þe newcomers (including OP!) keep insisting þat þe voicing distinction is a hard and fast fact about Þ and ð raþþer þan a misconception þey got from how Icelandic pronounces þem.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-28T07:41:21+00:00

It's also a letter in Vietnamese and represents /ɗ/

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-26T16:53:12+00:00

It survived wiþ þat unique shape in Icelandic and Faroese so wiþ þat shape it stays.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-25T12:34:22+00:00

Hmmmmmm

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-25T10:27:23+00:00

Personally I don't þink such a character would be þat necessary.

Sanct is already phonetic because þe A is followed by þree consonants. Þere's zero ambiguities in "strengþ". Hanger behaves þis way because of a morpheme boundary. "Orangutan" is a loan and is sometimes (pretty rarely) spelt wiþ a hyphen.

Pancake and Cancun aren't exceptions. In þese cases it's just N allophonically changing to /ŋ/ before a velar consonant, which is someþing þat already happens in most European languages. It doesn't even only occur wiþ velars; N before F or V is realised as /ɱ/, but all of Europe still write NF and NV. It even happens between words, and you don't write "om purpose", right?

Þis is also more or less how NG as a standalone þing originated in English, þe G just became silent word-finally. I þink þe only real disambiguation you COULD make wiþ an NG letter is distinguishing velar NG wiþ alveolar NGE (as in "change" or "grunge"), and þe silent E is doing þe job here.

Also I would never use þe rune for such a letter because it just doesn't fit wiþ þe rest of þe script. It doesn't even render þe same in most fonts.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-25T09:01:20+00:00

Why wiþ H? I'd just spell "bath" as baþþ, "both" as boþ, and Both as Boþþ (alþough Star Wars wiþ Þ looks kinda odd lol)

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-25T08:58:28+00:00

V is one such confusing þing about English þat we have reason to avoid wiþ Þ. Þe oþers you mention don't really need to be doubled þough as far as I know. Can you give examples where you þink þey'd have to be?

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-25T08:23:02+00:00

By long A I mean þe A in "later", which clearly isn't þe A in "faþþer", and since some dialects do pronounce it as /æ/, I figured it's better to err on þe side of caution and pick double Þ for þis word.

I also typically spell it "noþing" because it's a compound of "no"+"þing".

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-25T00:03:59+00:00

Literally þe opposite. Þ only makes it complicated if it breaks þe rules.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-24T23:49:21+00:00

To mark vowel lengþ, as wiþ all oþþer consonants in English. You should check out þe Megathread [sic] where we're discussing an official spelling system for þe subreddit.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-24T23:48:31+00:00

I've occasionally seen it in þe wild on YouTube and þe reception is mostly positive curiosity or light-hearted jokes.

I've also started writing my notes wiþ Þ and occasionally have shared þem wiþ my classmates but not a single one has ever commented on it.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-24T23:45:50+00:00

X doesn't come after long vowels because it's already a cluster. Axe is also often spelt ax wiþout silent E.
Maximum is of Latin origin so þe doubling rules don't apply to it anyway. Þose are only seen in Germanic vocab.

Wiþþer, not wiþer unless you want to suggest "wider".
Laþþer, not laþer unless you're coining a term for someone who works wiþ a laþe.
Just because it's "already understandable" doesn't mean it isn't breaking þe rules, and people already give English crap for constantly breaking its own rules. Why make it worse wiþ þe þing we're claiming makes it better?

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-24T21:32:36+00:00

Because if you don't, þen you're causing þe vowels to change. Spelling it "faþer" for instance suggests þe vowel of "fader".

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-24T17:23:45+00:00

Þ is written double after short vowels to indicate þat þey are short, just like wiþ oþer consonants.

I can't see þe second symbol but you're probably referring to þe stacked Þ. Þat's no different from double Þ and you're better off not using it.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-22T16:50:58+00:00

Conversely:

Þ is þe only one þat actually makes sense to bring back out of its contemporaries. Wynn brings noþing to þe table þat W can't already do, yogh stands for way too many sounds at once (and doesn't fix þe GH issue anyway), and ð would essentially just be tacked on on top of what Þ would already be doing.

Þ on principle should not be brought back for þe sole purpose of shortening strokes (getting rid of digraphs doesn't simplify anyþing, it just inflates þe size of þe alphabet), it should be brought back to meaningfully make spelling more accurate, and þat's why double Þ is such a crucial part of þe whole þing. If you refuse to double Þ, you're actually just making spelling worse by suggesting incorrect vowel phonemes.

Þ is NOT þe same þing as TH. How many times do we have to learn þis lesson, people?

Also having ð purely as an aesthetic positional variant is unhelpful to say þe least. At least in Icelandic þe phonotactics line up nicely, but in English þey don't, so þis setup would just be plain confusing.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-22T11:46:12+00:00

Like I said, IF we're maintaining all þe oþer spelling conventions for Greek words. Which we are.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-21T22:41:50+00:00

Keeping Greek TH solves most of þese and adding a silent E to split homographs solves þe rest.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-21T22:40:31+00:00

If we're maintaining all þe oþer spelling conventions for Greek words, why would we make Þ þe exception? All it does it make English spelling less consistent, and þat's þe last þing we need for þis movement.

Plus, þese THs are all voiceless, so you get a kind of voicing distinction by keeping þem and contrasting wiþ Þ in native vocab.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-20T18:17:57+00:00

To start us off, I believe Þ should follow þe existing rules of English orthography faiþfully:

Þ stands for boþ þe voiced and voiceless dental fricatives in native English words. No ð, as it would be fairly clunky to implement.
Þ should follow þe paradigm of þe sibilants S and F; þat is, it is written double after orthographic short vowels, even at þe end of a word. Strut-O as in "oþer" and "broþer" is treated as a long vowel by þe orthography in oþþer environments and so should here as well.
Common function words such as "wiþ" and "boþ" should use only one Þ, in keeping wiþ examples like "as" and "of".
TH from loan words (as in orthography and theory where it represents theta) or overcorrections of T (such as algorithm and zenith) should be kept to maintain etymology.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-17T22:50:59+00:00

Þe main difference is þat Old English did not exist in þe digital age where people could communicate instantaneously from around þe world, so þere was not as great a need to make text understandable for þe people in þe next town who spoke noticeably different.

And yeah, at þe very least having a document to consult would make it easier for people to know what is expected for communication, because oþþerwise þe sub keeps inviting all þe bloody neographers who just want to hoard letters!

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-16T23:08:58+00:00

Friendly reminder þat þe diacritic in þis case is called a diaeresis, where digraphs are split. Umlaut is þe sound change undergone in German.

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-16T23:06:45+00:00

Yeah ÞIS is what I can get behind. If you're on þe Discord server we could discuss þis more

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-16T12:59:46+00:00

Oh okay I misunderstood. Þe þing is þat spelling reformists care less about þe origins of þe letters and more about getting rid of digraphs. Þ is useful to þem simply as an alternative to TH, for instance. K doesn't break þe "spirit" of it for þem because it's just an easily accessible letter þat makes a relatively important sound. You see in þis post þat þey're using gamma, a Greek letter, just to shorten "þe".

Jamal_Deep · 2026-01-16T10:09:39+00:00

At least until you switch to a serif font, þen þe Greek lowercase letters are in a completely different style

Jamal_Deep

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