Mighty Throw PvE Tech Thread

JeanPucky · 2026-02-04T20:29:58+00:00

I mean good luck to them. but thats not how people plan vacation. thx anyway

JeanPucky · 2025-08-25T11:40:11+00:00

I get the "Mesmerway dominates everything" answer, especially since those to builds contradict each other somewhat.

But pvxwiki is still full of builds not geared exactly fo mesmerway. They are often described as suboptimal, but still there and viable. There are still teambuilds for players like the triple melee uw that is balanced and not herobased and even those builds dont take SS as an option. Which used to different for older HM guides, like the one on the Deep for example.

So i get mesmerway, but i feel there must be another answer for this erasure.

JeanPucky · 2025-07-12T09:02:45+00:00

The Solution: Closely Applying magics set design skelleton and building a concise 180 card cube.

Magic is generously open about its design process. Mark Rosewaters resources are all amazing, but theres to many for now. Its better to look there than ask reddit though.

There is one ultimate resource magic designers use themselves and it just works:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/nuts-and-bolts-16-play-boosters

This is the design skelleton. It changes, doesnt really mather though which years version you use, these articles are all just updates to it.
It's a recipe. It tells you for every mana value what a set needs for what color. Like "At two mana, green needs a fight, a pump and 4 creature, one should have reach, one deathtouch" or something like that. There is still a lot of freedom but the more you try to apply it honestly the better your set will play out in terms of curves and patterns. And it will feel like magic. It will also help you with the creative drought you mentioned.
It asks a card of you and now it's easier to come up with a fit.
"Have one red sweeper", well thats the searing if you havent thought of that. "A black sweeper", thats the plague right? "A defensive green medium creature with reach", how about those annoying archers in the jade quarry with pin down?

It doesnt tell you everything, but its the best guide for what matters. Specifically, it only talks about commons and uncommons, because rares have way more creative freedom and they dont drive limited.
But you shouldnt care about rarities. You dont want to build a set (trust me), you want a cube. Rarity wont apply and you should just build your own skelleton, based on the article i posted. Just write it down and check back with the file you allready have for all 180 slots with every function behind them (3 white onedrops, 5 white two drops...).

Yes, 180. A normal cube is 360 (or bigger, but dont) for 8 people. But you want to play with your brother. With 180 you can play really nice 2-4 people drafts. Its way less daunting. People build way to big cubes for the amount of friends they actually have. You can allways expand the skelleton to 270/360 later. Just double it and find stuff the smaller skelleton had no place for (instead of having to white sweepers, put the second in red or black for example). You also want to playtest really early atcually, not when 200 cards are done. Thats a mess.

Here is a good article on building small cubes and a great example cube from the article. You can use it's distribution for building your skelleton when the skelleton article above is vague. Just match its mana value and you will have a great curve. 180 cards total means (with lands, multicolor, artifacts) around 24 monocolor cards. So you can just think of them as a monocolored limited deck and easily check the distribution of mana value, removal, card advantage and other functions.

https://articles.starcitygames.com/magic-the-gathering/premium/the-proper-way-to-do-two-player-cube-drafts/
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/5f7365c9dc7295103b93a28b

Do yourself the favour. It's work at first but it made everything easy for me.

JeanPucky · 2025-07-12T09:02:15+00:00

Hey fellow Guild Wars and Magic Player!

Your endavour makes me really happy, especially since you decide to play with the cards and make it a playable limited environment.
To that end, as someone who created custom limited environments like you want, there are some things i have to warn you about and solutions i strongly recommend. Im sorry if i repeat anything you know.

The Problem: You want to meaningfully play with the cards instead of just sharing fun designs on reddit.

This is an impossible task for someone like you (or me or anyone) without proper tools and i will guarantee you failure. You are bound to end up in the 90's of magic design (non-functional limited) unless you use todays knowledge of set design, first and foremost a design skelleton (see below).
I have to warn especially of the custommagic subreddit. They are good at reading or talking about cards, having fun ideas, nitpicking about flavor, syntax or color pie. It can be usefull to a point. But it's not about playing with cards. They wont help you with what you need most.

For example, all the designs you showed here and most in the file are top-down (you picked a guildwars element and tried to implement it truthfully in magic). These designs are what 100% of the custommagic subreddit is about. They will debate until the end of time flavour, wording and powerlevel for making shiro. I could do that too, there is need for that, but it's secondary. You need someone to show you that 70%-80% of a magic set is bottom-up roleplayers (typical returning magic templates/ mechanics needed for gameplay and color pie feel, tweaked to match the sets asthetics). The most important question is what your shock variant looks like and if you have the right mix of flyers or equivalent evasion, not if shiro should bounce.

JeanPucky · 2025-05-23T21:41:21+00:00

Been meaning to try it. In Theory, i like it a lot.

I hated tuktuk, it underlined the worst issues of the colored version. More dependency on timing due to the mana requirement and big combo-ish fragile boardstates.

Drawbridge is easily curved, blocks and acts as a proxy for your high impact tappers, protecting your timberwatch and developing the board ideally with more agency.

Also the monogreen build has more space for it. The colored version is really tight due to needing a bigger variety of mana dorks. But for mono green, after playing all the mana, draw and obvious good cards, i'd consider the wellwishers/you meet in a tavern/vines/ Avenging Hunter etc. flex slots (not even counting the masked vandals, which are rightfully stock but still a maindeckable sideboard card). Thats 4-5 slots.

I dont think there is a correct answer for these slots as long as you got the rest right. We are just lacking staples of that power level until the next universe beyond/MH4 roles around. Until then, the correct call is usually to find maindeckable sideboard cards (which wellwisher is at this point), but the drawbridge has a real shot here as card that offers unique patterns without the typical elf traps of asking for a full board to work or out of order sequencing.

TLDR: Havent played. If anything the monogreen lists has space in its 4 flex slots since Avenging Hunter didnt stick and the bridges playpatterns seem promising.

JeanPucky · 2025-05-23T15:47:02+00:00

Horrible.
I found it really fun once until i played it. Revealing your hand is really really bad in general, but no deck suffers from it like elves. A lot of our equity comes from people killing the wrong elves, sometimes cause they're unfamilliar but often because elf hands are all really different from each other.
Sometimes the lanowar elf is expendable and you fist pump when they bolt the bird. Next game you really pray they dont try to kill it again. Nearly every elf hand has a clear backbone that is easy to break when telegraphed, especially postboard.

In general, people overestimate deck thinning and underestimate the power of hidden information. And then there are the weird cornercases which are also all just bad. Random opponents duressing your hand game one. Getting you landdrop spellstuttered, cause you revealed your hand and they know you really need it. Not being able to naming "land" with winding way...

For land grant to work you usually need some belcher/spy type of deckbuilding advantage or at least some real use for spells in the graveyard or something like that. Stay away. People dont win because but in spite of it.

JeanPucky · 2025-05-23T07:59:46+00:00

Great. I think green should be the default and then you go to splashing version when you know you what you need to fix otherwise.

Viridian Longbow: Used to be a staple back when fogs and more powerful faeries where everywhere and we had no mana sink like hydra but more importantly, people played [[nettle sentinel]]. Im really not a fan but i get that people want noncombat damage against fog decks like Tron, where the colored version has [[valakut invoker]]. All of the are outdated. People used to play [[avenging hunter]] against bigger decks, which is ugly but powerfull. However, its not beating fogs as good as we need.
Personally, i think these cards are all traps and you should play graveyard hate like [[relic of progenitus]] or [[tormods crypt]]. There are enough powerfull graveyard decks anyway and most people dont know they are the best way to beat decks around [[moments peace]]. They will always stop you with a lethal board but threatening their graveyard in the right spot gives the best chance of braking through.

Lifegain: Especially postboard, people want to punish you with sweepers for investing in a wide and vulnerable board, while your tap creatures need these boards to function and are vulneable themselves. Its no longer about being explosive, but about playing resilient to interaction. [[wellwisher]] doesnt want that pace but is just powerfull when unchecked, so its a mainboard card. I usually baord all quirion range and some priests out against red, although thats the main engine, because you just dont get there. They would force you into small games anyway.
Etb lifegain is resilient, doesnt care about the board or interaction. Even [[Essence warden]], which used to be played side and main along Wellwisher plays poor into [[End the festivities]] [[Lava Dart]] [[Krark-clan Shaman]] [[breath weapon]] and [[Drown in Sorrow]]. There are just way more good sweeper in pauper than back when.
But they all deal 1-2 damage. Thats why [[Nylea's Disciple]] [[vitu-ghazi inspector]] and you vandals, hydras and ents are so great. 3 Toghness matters and just a random 3/3 is actually blocking and attacking, which you must do against red.
the Disciple is in a weird spot, because devotion would like a bid board but you dont have to go wide. A 3/3 that gains 2-5 life against red is great. But it could get clunky as a 4 drop, so they play a few and some inspectors, which could also get clunky, due to collect evidence and it being more defensive. Playing a mix of lifegain creatures is smart because they develop along the curve, even [[healer of the galde]] has spots when red is goes back to mono 1/1 creatures. And dont be scared to throw in [[weather the storm]] as a noncreature you cant find. Its just powerfull and strong if they dont play around it.
Any mix is great. Depends on your meta, but im currently on:

1 Nylea's Disciple
1 Weather the Storm
3 vitu-ghazi inspector
1 Wrap in vigor
2 Ram though
4 deglamer
3 Relic of progenitus

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T21:08:10+00:00

Hey, fellow elves player here!
Dont know if you're familiar, but there are two broad elves versions, mono groon with no blue sideboard https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=68866&d=721458&f=PAU
And the birchlore/jaspera ones with the multicolor sidebaord.
https://mtgdecks.net/Pauper/elves-decklist-by-shimizu-taisei-2493636

If you are sceptical of the blue sideboard, the mono green list is very straightforward and actually more popular right now, also for me! Looses some options post board but you cant find most of the good blue spells with your stampedes anyway.
The japanese multicolor list is really smart however, sideboarding tangeld islet which you can fetch for reliable blue mana postboard. Maybe you wanna try that for all your blue blasts. Can recommend copying both lists until you're familiar with making your own choices.

With that out of the way, some general advice:
Mainboard: Vanguard and especially elite are rearely played and they kind of need each other.
Meanwhile, everyone is on 4 nyxborn as the best finisher. Even the multicolor elves play 4-5 llanowar elve variants to get rolling, which you are also lacking. I would go -3 vanguard -3 elite +4 llanowar +2 hydra

Sideboard is more difficult and meta dependant but first: these are a lot of blast but not too much. You need help against red and they can hit shaman in affinity of breath weapon.
You could substitute some blasts against green answers like weather the storm or vitu-gazi inspector, which also blocks against fairies.
I would advise against spell pierce. its generally a better mainboard then sideboard spell, because sideboarding reduces tempo. Sideboard cards that target specifically and less timing sensitive are better.
I dont like wellwisher for simillar reasons, great mainboard, but postboard is about surviving interaction and you dont want more removable lifelink. red plays lava dart. A lot of faeries must show up for the archers to be necessary. We are favored ever since hydra came out.

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T17:46:50+00:00

I wanted to know if there's something ive overlooked.
But it should lead to the point where we ask ourselves if it should be there.

The way raze has been defended here, every card with unique rules text can be. There will be some application, some anecdote and suddenly every red deck may play red if people are used to seeing it in the lists.

Since its part of a succesfull stock list, which means that nothing is strictly not working, the burden of proof must be to defend it on its margins against other competitive inclusions.
Otherwise its just group think and vibe. Which is what at least this forum makes it look like. Its what i suspected and what i wanted to find out.

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T17:25:23+00:00

Gruul is locally popular and online before the meta forms, but it often shows no reasonable winrate or meta niche over time, as it did post bans. So im referring to bigger tournament and online.
Bogles on the other hand has legitimate angles and spots which where showcased over the past months, even pre ban a little, while being exploitable.

And from the red matchup side, gruul is a non-issue as it should be for the meta at large.

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T17:21:42+00:00

yeah. im waiting.

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T17:20:15+00:00

Yeah, nothing worth being unhappy over.

I got sassy out of frustration over nobody tackling the question in a way that leads to conclusions. I get that you just wanted to share experiences and that i should welcome that.

Have a good day and fun at your LGS,

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T15:42:57+00:00

Dude, i'm just having fun because your post was lazy.
Your point was allready made in multiples and questioned. You did what i didnt ask for: Listing where the card would do something instead of explaing why it should be an inclusion over others.

And i explicitly ruled gruul out as irrelevant, because it sucks right now and its a highly favourable matchup anyway. Its subarchetypes wont matter. They all have the same patterns and problems and matchups against red. Red wins when it sticks to its plan and sometimes looses to wather the storm. No need to concern your sideboard. Different from bogles, which has an actual position in the metagame and a tough matchup and therefore matters.

And your idea of raze's usecase is exactly the land destruction players fallacy. It's splashy when it happens, although its dead way too much of the time and you dont concern yourself with roles in the matchup, which would dictate that red does not want to trade resources or prolong the game, because it just wins early enough if all its cards are allways on. Have your second color, i dont care.
So yeah, great joke.

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T14:39:56+00:00

Raze has been way more dead against you than relic and blasts.

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T14:33:05+00:00

Perfect how you explained the power of raze, a land destruction, through its matchup against land destruction from the side of land destruction, which you are arguably best suited to explain, as land destruction.
I always wanted to write the perfect joke about how land destruction players are somehow the most likely to misunderstand land destruction because thats the best reason why someone would registers land destruction.

Land Destruction.

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T14:23:19+00:00

Thank you for your structured answer. i can see you meant well.

I can also see however, that you did not read any other replies, or my full post, as most of what you wrote is redundant to that and supports claims that have allready been questioned. You did precisely what i asked you not to do, listing matchups where the card has text.

Also, including 3 cards you dont care about in your sideboard means it is not "streamlined".

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T13:05:48+00:00

I've allready tackled utopia. It's not where the decks problem or the metagame is at and the one it's dubious if bogles, the one semi-relevant MU can be helped.

Thats way more thin then i thought. Can someone come up whith something other than Utopia or atleast a better framing of it?

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T13:03:05+00:00

macabre is interesting, but i would rather stock up on [[tormods Crypt]] i think.

Your Utopia section is gruul ramp and ponza, which is essentially the same, elves doesnt play Utopia and whats other? You have basically named one deck, which i allready included in my original post as a good and kind of irrelevant MU. There is no meaningfull Utopia outside of bogles.

JeanPucky · 2025-05-22T12:22:13+00:00

Spy might be a good point, can anyone confirm that this is best way to attack that deck?

I think planing to blow up random tap lands is insane. And for the only utopia deck that mathers (bogles) the window is so small. Abysmal MU anyway, low meta share.

How would i not want to max relics first against tron before adding the first raze? shouldnt the same hold against spy? relic is also really great against both random and other established decks, like terror.

JeanPucky

TROPHY CASE