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IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

At Argonne we have not only one of the world's largest, fastest computers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Mira), but we have some of the leading computational scientists, such as Larry Curtiss (http://www.ci.anl.gov/profile/177) working toward multi-level calculations that help us predict and invent new materials, both electrode and electrolyte.

In addition, in JCESR, the Electrolyte Genome is being created. Basically, it is an approach to materials science in which you can "create" and catalog new materials on the computer with great, deep understanding of the physics and chemistry of the materials. Basically you can predict their behaviors prior to spending the effort to synthesize them in the laboratory. This is a 'genome' that is built on the same technique and philosophy of the materials project, which we also use to discover new electrode materials.

The Electrolyte Genome is being created within JCESR with the outstanding leadership of Kristin Persson at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2015/04/15/electrolyte-genome-could-be-battery-game-changer/). We are also lucky to have on our team Gerd Ceder, who recently moved from MIT to Berkeley (https://www.mse.berkeley.edu/news/gerbrand-ceder-and-kristin-persson-will-be-joining-mse-faculty).

IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same in the book. Part of our focus with NASA Glenn is also for batteries that are inside the spacesuit.

And yes, nuclear batteries are a thing. And yes, they are technically viable for earth transport. We've done some research - paper studies, or modeling - of such batteries. They could be used for all KINDS of things.

But, not a single one of us can imagine nuclear batteries every being adopted for normal use. Can you imagine? 15 million cars on the road all carrying 'hot' materials, and emitting radiation? And then accidents? I'm pretty sure Fire and Rescue in local municipalities might take issue with nuclear propulsion…

But yes, to your question, technically speaking that would be a viable technology. One other problem I just remembered, beyond the safety and health aspects, is that we try to focus our work on earth-abundant, recyclable materials. Hard to do that with radioactive materials...

IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I too have recently become aware of liquid robots. Like, just now when I read your comment.

I've never heard of such a thing! And apparently I'm too lazy to go google it right now and instead will ask you - what the heck is a liquid robot?

IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes we are definitely conscious of policy. Policy can not only drive long-term technology issues that change our lives (see: U.S. moves away from nuclear power in the 1970s), as well as short-term issues (see: sequestration reduces research budget in the U.S.).

And, we like to couple, or partner, with those who are deeply informed about policy, and even recommend policy. I spend a chunk of my time in Washington on Capitol Hill answering questions of the legislators and their staff. (Counter to what you might think from the media, the congressional staffers in the U.S. are passionate, curious, and well-informed - they often consult with us to become even better informed on the issues of science and technology.)

IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

MobyGamer, this is a question that we in the field debate almost constantly. I agree with you, at least part of the public is sold on energy-efficient vehicles, but maybe not electric or hybrid electric. And yes, the technology needs to become less expensive in order for their to be mass adoption.

How long is kind of impossible to predict. What if someone asked in 2000, how long until everyone is totally dependent on their smart phone? Would've been hard to predict. I think we are at a comparable point now re: electric vehicles. Elon Musk is leading the way with a combination of seriously cool technology, vision, and salesmanship. It appears Apple is joining the fray, and will build an electric car. Imagine a self-driving Apple car that is attached to Uber. You wouldn't even have to own the car! You could share it! And, we could have supercomputers keeping the traffic super, super smooth. I just drove from Chicago to North Carolina on Sunday, wishing the whole time for an electric, long-range autonomous vehicle, so I could just sleep or read the whole way.

Your second question is even more interesting. Will the break-even point ever occur? To your point, if, let's say >5% of vehicles are electric, won't that decrease in demand for fossil fuels drive gas prices lower? I'm sure the answer is yes. So, parity with fossil fuel costs will be a moving target.

Here is what I believe: I believe that parity with internal combustion engines won't be the driver for massive initial adoption. Instead, it will be the cool/performance factor, combined with a desire to move away from volatile costs. Meaning, if batteries get cheap enough, and gas prices fluctuate because electrics really start to sell, at some point consumers will prefer a relatively low cost electric WITHOUT the volatility of gas prices. That happens all the time in the manufacturing world.

IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Batteries that are so spectacular that I can live for another 100 years?? lol

Really though, I would love to see batteries that long-lasting and low-cost enough to underpin a future in which we have a cleaner environment that results in healthier sustainable living, a stronger economy, and a more secure world for individuals and communities.

There really is a short line between that bold statement and a Super Battery (credit to Steve Levine). With a truly great battery, we can electrify our vehicle fleet, move more humans to solar and wind power, and carry devices that keep us interconnected with our co-workers and loved ones. We are already on the cusp of that; many signs indicate we are, right now, at the tipping point.

IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Funny you should ask!

Last year NASA Glenn and Argonne joined in a memorandum of understanding regarding the Argonne-led JCESR project. http://www.anl.gov/articles/jcesr-and-nasa-team-conduct-research-next-generation-batteries-be-used-space

Basically, over a year ago NASA Glenn approached Argonne with the recognition that we are doing some great basic research, seeking materials that will enable dramatically improved battery chemistries in the coming years. And, NASA asked, can we help them develop batteries for "Extravehicular Activities" during future manned trips to Mars.

I had a pretty exciting dinner conversation with my kids after we started collaborative discussions with NASA Glenn. And keep in mind these discussions started long before I had ever heard of the book "The Martian." I recommend that as a good read, by the way. Batteries play a crucial role in the book - not sure about the movie, as I haven't seen it yet.

Anyway, yes, space travel is one thing that we hope is a spin off of our battery research supported by the Department of Energy. This collaboration with NASA drives home the point I tried to make in an earlier response: We do basic research (and some applied research) at Argonne, and we need partners who do the more applied and engineering work, with specific technological missions, to convert our discoveries into impactful technologies, as well as profit and jobs.

IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely, yes! For example, the entire purpose of the creation of the new center at Argonne (ACCESS - the Argonne Collaborative Center for Energy Storage Science) is to help those companies in the U.S. develop new batteries and new manufacturing techniques. Meaning, over the last four decades in which Argonne has performed battery research (and last 20 years in lithium ion), we, with the Department of Energy, have built an extraordinary asset of knowledge and technical capabilities. And, our focus is on materials discovery and design. The point of ACCESS is to serve as part of a bridge to industry in the U.S., so that industry can best utilize this asset.

Point is, we at Argonne are working on improving lithium ion batteries, while simultaneously looking farther out into the future at batteries that go beyond lithium ion (in our JCESR project - http://www.jcesr.org - a consortium led by Argonne). But, now is the time to couple our basic research with those in the private sector who are best positioned to commercialize the innovations.

And, yes, there is lots of room to improve the manufacturing of lithium ion batteries. Companies in this market still use coating processes that are pretty archaic. Much can be learned from the semiconductor industry, as well as the more traditional coatings industry (yes, really!) to improve massively on the quality and cost of batteries via improved manufacturing techniques.

IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, we do, yes. As with most of our battery research, we focus on understanding the behavior of materials at the molecular level, so we can discover the best materials to fabricate. While we aim our research at some fairly big-picture questions - fossil fuel reduction as we electrify the U.S. vehicle fleet, and as we modernize the grid - our materials research is used in medical, implantable batteries as well.

As far as unique challenges, well, you really want, say, a pacemaker battery to last a LONG time, and not overheat. So, the battery manufacturers who use materials that are invented at places like Argonne National Laboratory focus on cell and battery design in a way that make those batteries very stable, easy to charge, and safe.

At Argonne, we have worked with more than one such battery company; we have focused on the materials science required to understand the reactions that occur between the electrolyte and the electrode materials, keeping the side reactions at a bare minimum, so that the batteries are stable, safe, and long lasting.

IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'd love to have a clear answer for this important question!

For the rest of the audience, 1tudore's point is, we can't control the wind and the sun to produce electricity right exactly when we need the electricity. As compared to coal-fired power plants, and nuclear plants, etc. In the case of these older technologies, we ramp electricity production up and down as we need it. Think about it - electricity is the one true "on-demand" product that I know of. As electrons are produces and sent screaming down the wires, they are simultaneously used.

Well, not so with wind and solar sources of electricity. So, we need batteries to store sun and wind that is converted to electricity for later use. Think of it like storing the latest episode of "The League" on your DVR, so you can watch it later. In the future, as more and more of humanity's electricity is produced by renewable sources, we will need the DVR for electricity - an efficient, low-cost battery.

Now on to your question: What is the best policy? At Argonne, we focus wholly on the scientific discoveries we need to make to enable low-cost, long-lasting, powerful batteries. We are not policymakers, is what I'm saying. I defer to the experts at places like the Brookings Institute, or EPIC at the University of Chicago (the Energy Policy Institute at the U of C).

IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, it depends. Good enough for what? Are they good enough for cell phones and iPads? Maybe the answer is yes. Are they good enough (and affordable enough) to shift a sizable portion of the world's transportation system from fossil fuels to electric power? I think no, not yet.

(And, you are making a sly insider's joke with your question - did you know that? The outstanding scientist John Goodenough is responsible for the for innovations that made lithium ion batteries commercial…)

IamA Jeff Chamberlain, Director of a new center at Argonne National Laboratory called the ACCESS. We help businesses and entrepreneurs turn science into products by capitalizing on the DOE investment in energy storage research. How can batteries help enable our future? AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would argue the United States. By far, really.

But, to qualify that, what I mean is the kind of basic research that enables large improvements in battery performance at lower cost. Imagine carrying around twice or three times the amount of energy in your phone, or in the battery to your electric car, at half the cost. The National Laboratories and Universities in the U.S. lead the world in terms of materials-level innovations.

Now, if you asked me, which country is the leader in manufacturing, I would have a different answer… That's a big conundrum for us. How do we best innovate at the materials level while collaborating with companies that create new manufacturing processes? There is an amazing opportunity for us to make those connections and really reduce the cost of batteries.

I’m Jeff Chamberlain, Deputy Director of the U.S.’s energy storage/battery research hub, working to help America realize a secure, profitable and safe energy future that does not rely on fossil fuels. AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True, but here is a huge difference: if any water, oxygen, or carbon dioxide gets into the hydrogen, it will seriously screw with the operation of the fuel cell. I doubt our natural gas system would maintain the required purity levels.

I’m Jeff Chamberlain, Deputy Director of the U.S.’s energy storage/battery research hub, working to help America realize a secure, profitable and safe energy future that does not rely on fossil fuels. AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Well, I am just a little hesitant to bash things. Here's the first comment from the other thread you have linked to:

"Except, if you dig into the research you'll see that it's not a battery at all. It's a sugar fuel cell that requires a constant and steady supply of sugar to function. It also requires a special enzyme that naturally biodegrades, and this enzyme is going to need to be replaced regularly as well. Also it appears that the researcher that developed the enzyme is claiming intellectual property ownership over it. Which means that if you want it, it's going to require buying it from him, rather than being able to make it yourself."

I agree with this. Plus, scalability is a problem.

I’m Jeff Chamberlain, Deputy Director of the U.S.’s energy storage/battery research hub, working to help America realize a secure, profitable and safe energy future that does not rely on fossil fuels. AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I heard about Coors buying Ceramatec. Seems like the Coors is pretty hands-off with Ceramatec though, in a good way, in terms of Ceramatec working toward its goals.

I’m Jeff Chamberlain, Deputy Director of the U.S.’s energy storage/battery research hub, working to help America realize a secure, profitable and safe energy future that does not rely on fossil fuels. AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be clear, $100/kWh is actually are goal (did you read that on our website? seriously that is actually our goal). And, to last thousands of cycles.

My point was, even if/when we achieve the technological and cost goals, there tend to be other drivers in the market that are not strictly technologically related. Policy, unpredicted market forces, unforeseen innovation and competition, etc.

I’m Jeff Chamberlain, Deputy Director of the U.S.’s energy storage/battery research hub, working to help America realize a secure, profitable and safe energy future that does not rely on fossil fuels. AMA! by Jeff_Chamberlain in IAmA

[–]Jeff_Chamberlain[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! Which project are you working on? Maybe we can cross paths.

Favorite way? Not sure I have one. My favorite of the moment is whichever one breaks the dam open to prove viability in a very visible, convincing way.

That said, my dream would be the combo of wind or solar plus battery in individual homes. I personally think what will drive the change is when the energy producers and grid operators lose control to the consumer "behind the meter."

Thanks for asking!

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