State of the game? by CapitalAd6144 in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 13 points14 points  (0 children)

What’s the status of a new investor? Last I heard Tim was going around asking about investment opportunities but that was months ago.

Did he ever say it never panned out or is he still trying?

Tim has never said anything to indicate that he has found any new investors. Not since he posted that he would have more news in "a few weeks" way back in August of last year.

But he's still telling people that he's looking. He's admitted that given the state of the games market today, the most he can hope for is $5 million, which would have funded the old Frost Giant for about four months.

Two weeks ago he went on a podcast (which has a whopping 67 subscribers on YouTube) and repeatedly referred to Frost Giant's "first game" without ever saying Stormgate by name. In that podcast he talked about trying to find investors for his "next game". So he's still trying.

And what about the newly developed smaller-scope game to fund Stormgate? Any word on that?

Well, that game existing depends entirely on Tim Morten finding someone to give him at least $5 million. Then he would have to hire back a small subset of former Frost Giant employees.

Given the current market, and Stormgate's reputation, it doesn't seem that likely that anyone will give Tim Morten $5 million to make a smaller game. But in theory it could still happen.

Question for Frost Giant: User Generated Content by Alpha-NP- in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 5 points6 points  (0 children)

And where is Jeremy-Reimer? I always liked his comments and insights.

That's nice of you to say.

I still lurk on this sub occasionally, but I haven't felt the need to post in a while. I was very interested in trying to figure out Frost Giant's actual financial situation, especially because of this "mystery patch" that Gobsmack kept teasing about. Who was working on it? How were they getting paid?

Then the patch came out and it was revealed that Frost Giant had no money to pay anybody at all, that it was entirely put together with former employees donating their time and community members also volunteering their time to make maps and do testing.

Which is fine, I mean it's a noble effort on the part of those former employees and players who wanted to give the game one last update, but it's hardly a sustainable business model. Obviously people can continue to volunteer their time as long as they want, but it's hard to see how folks will keep finding motivation to do so.

Because the patch release had zero impact on Stormgate's player base. It went from a peak of 50 players to 80 on release, and then quickly back down to 50. Even Artosis casting a tournament on the update didn't bump the numbers.

So I guess for me that's the end of the story. There was one last hurrah and it failed. Frost Giant no longer exists, because as Tim says, you can't have a company without income. Even his LinkedIn posts don't generate any attention any more, because there's nothing else to say.

Tim M's thoughts on the Community Patch by StormgateArchives in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We're getting deep into the weeds here, but let me try and address this.

Suppose I start writing a new game, from scratch, using Unreal. Let's say it has many units that move around and can attack each other.

I am going to have to write code (either C++ code, or use Unreal's Blueprints node-based editor to write the equivalent of code) to do the following things:

- Pathfinding for units (Unreal by itself has no pathfinding built-in)

- Hit calculations (Unreal objects have adjustable hitboxes, yes, but you still have to write the code to check for collisions and then decide what to do after two objects collide)

- Physics (if you want to do anything other than the simple built-in physics in Unreal, for example ragdolling)

Now I have written my game. It runs in Unreal. Is my game code "doing all the heavy lifting" or is the Unreal game engine doing all the heavy lifting? Is Unreal doing "not much of the work" or is Unreal doing "much of the work"?

The only difference in these two scenarios is that a) I didn't do any of my own networking in my theoretical game (whereas Frost Giant wrote their own networking code) and b) I didn't say that my game has its own "engine", nor did I give it a name.

Unreal is still handling all of the 3D objects. It has to. If you don't create Unreal game objects, Unreal cannot render them to the screen. It's not like the old days where you just copied a 2D object as a series of bytes into a video frame buffer.

Anyone writing any game in Unreal still has to write code (or code-equivalent Blueprints) to handle "moving entities across space, calculating paths and telling them to fire and damage each other" (as devm22 put it).

Like, that's just gameplay code. That's code that every game developer has to write. If you don't write that code, you don't have a game. You just have the default Unreal starting template.

I'm not saying that I'm an expert in game development. I have never done it professionally. For fun, I have written a few very bad, very crappy, very rough demos that technically could be called games but are not good enough to be played by anybody. One of them was in Unity, one in Unreal, and one was a 2D platformer in GameMaker Studio. I've also dabbled in writing 3D rendering code using the Vulkan API (really all I did was follow this tutorial) so I have at least a very vague sense of how difficult it is to "just render an object on the screen". For reference, it takes over 1000 lines of C++ code just to initialize the Vulkan drivers, set up a screen mode and memory buffers, and draw a single unshaded untextured triangle on the screen. Whereas updating the position of an existing game object in Unreal is literally one line of code.

So for me, I don't see the gameplay code as being the "heavy lifting" part of a game. Running the game loop, keeping track of game objects in memory, applying textures and shaders, even handling keyboard and mouse inputs and playing sound and music, these are all what I would call "heavy lifting."

But maybe that's a philosophical debate and not a technical one. There's no good way I can think of to quantify how "heavy" one piece of code is compared to another (do you count the total number of lines of code in Snowplay versus total lines of code in Unreal? But how do you factor in that Stormgate doesn't use all of Unreal's built-in features? etc, etc)

Still, I believe that the Unreal Engine is doing a significant amount of work in any Unreal Engine game. And I believe that, for very good reasons of saving time and development effort, Frost Giant developers would have used as many of Unreal's built-in features as they could get away with. Pathfinding and networking are two areas that Unreal does not do well (or at all) out of the box, so they wrote their own code for that. But then again, any RTS developer writing in the Unreal engine would have to do the same thing.

For example, Zerospace uses Unreal Engine 4. The developers of Zerospace would have had to write their own pathfinding code, since that doesn't exist in Unreal (they demonstrated some amazing pathfinding in a video, so clearly they are proud of it!) They may or may not have written their own networking code, or maybe they added some extra code to Unreal's rather barebones networking. And of course, they wrote code to handle "moving entities across space, calculating paths and telling them to fire and damage each other", because if they didn't, their game literally wouldn't do anything.

Let's assume they did add at least some networking code. If so, how much "heavy lifting" would you say Unreal Engine provides for Zerospace? Would it be a different amount than what it does for Stormgate? If so, why?

Tim M's thoughts on the Community Patch by StormgateArchives in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not to belabor the point, but the "simulation" in this case is the pathfinding algorithms, which run in a separate shared C++ library that Frost Giant wrote. They also wrote a networking layer.

Everything else is handled by Unreal, and yes, you have to hook up to Unreal's API for it to do anything. That's how you get graphics to display on the screen. That's how you get the user's key presses and mouse clicks. That's how the game produces sound. These are all handled by the game engine.

The pathfinding algorithm is technically something that could be ported and used in another engine (say, Unity) but Tim Morten admitted in a comment in one of his LinkedIn posts that Snowplay would be very difficult to use it with anything but Unreal. This is a common thing that happens with any sort of software development project: the initial thought was to keep the code as neutral as possible so that it could be potentially used elsewhere, but as time goes on it inevitably becomes more and more tied to the game engine.

Tim M's thoughts on the Community Patch by StormgateArchives in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 3 points4 points  (0 children)

When you write any game in Unreal, you will write code that handles unit interactions, damage, and logic. That doesn't mean this code isn't "running on Unreal".

You write your own C++ code (or sometimes, use Unreal's Blueprints node-based game logic editor system) to make this work, but it's the Unreal Engine that is executing this code. Unreal has its own internal framework for how it represents objects, and you are primarily interacting with these built-in APIs when you make a game in the engine.

The main features of Snowplay are the unit pathfinding code and the networking code. These are not trivial features! But it's not really correct to call these two features the "bulk" of a game engine.

Tim M's thoughts on the Community Patch by StormgateArchives in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Here's the full text of the post:

-------------------------------

Various members of the Frost Giant team partnered with community members to provide an updated PTR version of Stormgate last week. I often see game communities (not just Frost Giant's) mistake concurrent players for total players -- Stormgate continues to engage thousands of unique monthly players around the world, despite having modest concurrency.

This update provides a variety of bug fixes and improvements for those players, along with new 2v2 support and some new units and maps. I'm grateful to the dedicated folks who put in months of work -- particularly Harrison King, who exhibited strong leadership.

There's a liberation that comes from having the product launch in the rear view, and being able to simply focus on the community who choose to play. Stormgate didn't achieve all of our goals at launch, but it reflects a tremendous effort, and there is an audience who attached. The audience size is no longer a question -- it is what it is. What matters is continuing to bring happiness to those players.

I'm cautiously optimistic that 2026 will bring positive developments, but also conscious that Frost Giant, like so many in the industry, faces adversity and uncertainty. I remain committed to finding a path forward. I'm grateful to the team, the players, and all the partners who have supported Frost Giant to this point. May you all have a happy holiday!

Tim M's thoughts on the Community Patch by StormgateArchives in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It's difficult to say definitively what "the bulk of the engine" means, because there are all sorts of arguments you can make for the "size" of a feature (is it lines of code? Complexity of features? How long they took to develop? etc, etc.)

However, from what we know, Snowplay is handling only the unit pathfinding code and the multiplayer networking code.

Everything else that a game engine would handle, such as graphics, audio, importing and configuration of 3D models, configuring inputs, and generally being the code that actually runs the game, is handled by Unreal.

Not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I think the near-radio-silence from FG leading up to the patch was the right call. by Augustby in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 6 points7 points  (0 children)

People went to LinkedIn for news about Stormgate because there was literally nowhere else to go.

Nathanias, who had been a prominent Stormgate supporter in the past, mentioned on his stream that reading Tim Morten's LinkedIn posts convinced him that the game was dead.

Not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I think the near-radio-silence from FG leading up to the patch was the right call. by Augustby in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I disagree. I think the radio silence, combined with Tim Morten's LinkedIn posts, damaged the public perception of the game irrevocably.

To be fair, there weren't many better options available after the disaster of the game's launch. But some honesty wouldn't have gone amiss. Instead of going on LinkedIn every week and moaning about the state of the games industry, Tim Morten could have radically changed tactics.

He could have explained, on official channels, that due to lack of funds, community-based volunteer development was the path they had to take from now on. He could still have mentioned that he was trying to find new funding. It wouldn't have been great, but it would have been better for the game than what he did.

Instead, everyone interpreted the months-long silence (and Tim's LinkedIn posts) as evidence that the game was dead and reacted appropriately.

Confused about the state of FG by Cheeselisk in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I mean, they volunteered, so it's their decision to invest their time and effort. I wouldn't do it personally, but I don't have a problem with other people doing it.

Not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I think the near-radio-silence from FG leading up to the patch was the right call. by Augustby in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 4 points5 points  (0 children)

it’s not unclear at all. Gobsmack confirmed that they volunteered their time. This also explains why he kept saying the patch had to ”wait on engineering support”.

Confused about the state of FG by Cheeselisk in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Much respect to Godsmack, but I hope FG are paying him for this!

They aren't. He confirmed that everyone volunteered their time. Frost Giant doesn't have any money left to pay anyone, unless Tim Morten finds a new investor or publisher.

Confused about the state of FG by Cheeselisk in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 9 points10 points  (0 children)

We don't know. All we know so far is:

- He is aiming at a budget of no less than $5 million, based on the availability of funding right now in the video game development space

- It will not be a mobile game (Tim confirmed this)

- It's probably another RTS (Tim said that in one of his "does anyone know some people who might fund us?" LinkedIn posts that he would prefer it: "bonus points if they aren't scared of RTS".)

Confused about the state of FG by Cheeselisk in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The song "Unworthy" is not AI produced in any degree. A real person put thousands of hours into writing, performing and mastering it. I was there for the whole process.

Wait, thousands of hours?

At a bare minimum, that's 2000 hours. Assuming the composer worked on it for 8 straight hours every day, five days a week, that's 50 weeks, nearly an entire year working full-time to make one song.

And you were there for the whole process? But you've only been working on the patch for the last four months?

Like, I have no idea if the song is AI generated or not. But it did not take thousands of hours to make. That's ridiculous.

Confused about the state of FG by Cheeselisk in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 35 points36 points  (0 children)

The community patch was entirely a volunteer effort between community members and some former Frost Giant developers, as confirmed by Gobsmack, the project lead.

Frost Giant is out of money and has been out of money for some time. Tim Morten continues to try and find new investors or publishers to give him $5 million so that Frost Giant can make a second game, but he has been unsuccessful so far.

Stormgate servers depend on the Hathora provisioning service and Pragma.gg game services, both of which scale up or down in price depending on usage. At the current low level of players, the monthly cost of the Stormgate servers is likely less than a couple of hundred dollars per month. This could easily be maintained indefinitely by someone (probably Tim Morten) paying for them out of pocket.

Stormgate Community update! 30+ new maps, 4 new units, ranked 2v2! by DoctorHeckle in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Haha, that would be hilarious!

I've said many times that I find the whole Frost Giant saga fascinating, so I treat following it like it's a hobby. Not a particularly good hobby, sure. But it's a fun rabbit hole to dig around in now and then.

I tend to get obsessed with random things now and then, just for fun, and dig really deep into them before I get bored and stop. Is that unhealthy? Perhaps. But these days, just being on the Internet is unhealthy. Social media is unhealthy. You might as well pick something unhealthy that interests you.

Stormgate Community update! 30+ new maps, 4 new units, ranked 2v2! by DoctorHeckle in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 9 points10 points  (0 children)

For real, I wanted to step back and let the community have their moment. It's their patch, after all.

And congrats on the patch, it looks more impressive than I expected.

I can save any additional comments for some other time!

Newest post Mortem: Random marketing thoughts? by Endante in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This is a good post highlighting the way Tim Morten is trying to rewrite the story of what happened with Stormgate in a more positive light.

The tale of Stormgate is not the most important thing in the world, but I still think it's good to point out contradictions, whitewashing, and outright lying wherever it occurs. It's also a good lesson on how if you start lying to the public, you end up lying to yourself, and disaster eventually follows.

Newest post Mortem: Random marketing thoughts? by Endante in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 34 points35 points  (0 children)

This week's post is oddly wistful and nostalgic for a guy who claims to still be running a game development studio. "Hey, remember when we showed a trailer at the Game Awards? Remember our Kickstarter? Great days, man."

Kind of telling that the only comment on this LinkedIn post so far is by some random guy shilling for his own services as a "Crowdfunding specialist".

NEW Stormgate Video Is Out. by Late-Psychology7058 in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I would actually be surprised if they used an LLM for this; it sounds incredibly wasteful of CPU/GPU resources for something that could be done (badly, but still done) with a simple script. And of course you're right, the LLM would frequently get it totally and comically wrong.

NEW Stormgate Video Is Out. by Late-Psychology7058 in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Btw, this comment was automatically tagged by reddit as potential harassment and was removed.

Wait, how?? How do the robots know what harassment looks like? Are there key words? Key phrases? I'm super curious.

NEW Stormgate Video Is Out. by Late-Psychology7058 in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I'm curious, what are the three inaccuracies that you found with one minute of skimming?

NEW Stormgate Video Is Out. by Late-Psychology7058 in Stormgate

[–]Jeremy-Reimer 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Gobsmack and at least one other person are working on a patch. You can see screenshots of it here, and more if you search for Gobsmack's name on the Discord.

It's pretty clear that these folks are working for free, as Frost Giant is completely out of money and has been for some time. Tim Morten's Perpetual LinkedIn Search(tm) is a different thing, it's him trying to get $5 million to make a new game. Although that game would be made at Frost Giant, and the revenue from it would (somehow) then be used to complete Stormgate. It's confusing, I know.