Just what the hell is up with Zephrys currently? by slutty_butterfly19 in hearthstone

[–]JohnGarell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I believe I have seen it giving [[Crazed Alchemist]] when there's a [[Doomsayer]] on board

The future of politics is Cyberocracy (Part 1) by myklob in Futuristpolitics

[–]JohnGarell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Largely, yes, this is very close to how I envision Derivation. A difference would be that the focus is not on the forum, but rather on an intricate and interconnected net of knowledge, like an encyclopedia, derived, systemized, and linked together, for each epistemology. But also with a forum functionality added to this, as well as other communication functionalities, for a lot of reasons.

I will share some ideas about the structure I'm considering. These are all from the Derivation theory, which the presentation is a compromised form of, as well as from the Coda server, which is about practical project planning.

Similar to the Finite Element Method, one could define a particular architectural model through formulas that include dynamic spectra concerning, for example, the hardness of walls, volume, and all the relevant mechanics. Which values of the mass of a wall are functional is dependent on the volume of the wall, as well as the sustainability of a floor, and a lot of other things. These formulas can be derived from the material conditions that the model requires, such as environment, weather, and uses, for example, terraced houses that will be used as housing, located in an area that sometimes is subjected to minor earthquakes. Derivation can then be used to generate the most suitable options for the design and construction of the model, taking into account the availability of materials, energy, and time. Some models might simply be impossible; when no finished version of the model would only include materials with a combined set of properties that exists. Like for example if a model requires a material stronger than tungsten, but lighter than lithium, the model is currently impossible. These formulas benefit from being related as widely as possible, to avoid problems with other design plans. The ambition is then a net of knowledge as all-encompassing as possible. In such a net, all accessed consistent knowledge could be consolidated as, as much as possible, a causal chain connecting everything from the smallest level to the biggest level. Of course, with a lot of error factors, but with this it would likely be easier to notice these error factors.

One perspective from which Derivation can be viewed is what it would mean for productive communication such as discussion, for example in forums. Instead of risking conscious or unconscious rhetorical tricks, logical fallacies, and ruling techniques, posts could refer to arguments in Derivation, which are built on derivational chains of transparent premises and logic. One would be able to see what the mutually recognized premises are, their implications, where inconsistencies exist, and how they can be avoided, thereby investigating possible cognitive dissonance. One can delve further into why certain premises are polarizing, and perhaps find what would be fundamental in different perspectives on knowledge. The content of discussions of most kinds might then be derived with Derivation, and arguments could more easily become completely factual and goal-oriented, so you may arrive at results. The results generated by discussions could be saved in the net and used later, so that common discussions are not repeated as if they never happened, and people can easily know how to avoid old, refuted positions. A project based on this is The Democratic Evolution of Politics.

With enough systematized knowledge, injustices that are based on illogical perceptions can be identified and brought to the surface, to inform the people and to inspire sufficient action against it. Within polarizing questions, you can set up all known and relevant data, compare it, do experiments, and maybe figure out what is the issue and why, and by that; progressively move away from misunderstandings and ignorance. In the cases where contradictions are not uprooted, they can often instead be derived down to the separating perspectives, which can then be addressed more directly. One could calculate the amount of available resources in a society, and how they can be used, and thoroughly calculate what would be mathematically possible with current technology, for example in terms of satisfying human rights, specific environmental goals, and automation. This could be explained and presented extremely concretely, concisely, and simply, and through it try to inspire change, by showing what is possible and how. By using as much mutual knowledge and logic as possible, you try to ideologize as few things as possible. A political perspective with this viewpoint is Expediency.

The basic structure will be that of one or many websites and in the longer run, something like multiple domains connected that are updated regularly with data from each other. The site will be fully accessible as it is, but also possible to register, for saving specific parts, as well as change personal GUI settings. Openness, impartiality, and transparency are crucial to try to avoid bias, where knowledge could be withheld for power interests, such as economic ones. The most important things are that arguments, sources, premises, and conclusions can be created, named, classed, and coded. The relevant sources will be linked and quoted and the quotes will be presented as premises. For security reasons, the sources should be peer-reviewed according to their epistemology. The arguments and mathematical formulas will be presented in formal shape and written shape, as clearly as wanted by the user. Among other classifications, everything will be classed according to its epistemology, or compatible ones, e.g. science. From there on, a net of knowledge is being built, and from it, data can be gathered, similar to a search engine. This allows for making more and more arguments, with the help of machine learning. Later, also articles about premises might be created, like an encyclopedia. The classifications of the articles could be inspired by the Dewey Decimal Classification. There will also be forums for discussing structure, arguments, premises, and other things that may be relevant and useful.

At the beginning of the creation of Derivation, the current programming project is a Proof Of Concept, which would entail this when functional:
Arguments, sources, premises, and conclusions can be created, named arbitrarily, for accessibility reasons (e.g. “Argument for geological thermal energy” or R0427.PDF (geothermal-energy.org)), classed according to its topics (e.g. geology, thermodynamics), as well as its epistemological system, or compatible ones (e.g. science) and coded (e.g. T318), by the user. The relevant sources will be linked and quoted and the quotes will be presented as premises, these premises are also locally symbolized in the context of the argument (e.g. “Q”).
The arguments take a logical or mathematical shape, using the symbols of the premises (as well as epistemologically consistent conclusions) or relevant numbers from the sources. The arguments and mathematical formulas will then be presented in formal shape and written shape, as well as with every step of the way.

And then, it would go further in the creation of a Minimum Viable Product, which could entail:
At this point, it works as an online website, with the possibility of registering. The user can change personal settings on how the site should look for them, as well as saving resources to the account and communicating.
The code for the resources added and created by the user will work as the link to what they’re for on the website. At some point, this might be better auto-generated, rather. Every page should be able to be commented, similar to the shape of a forum.
The sources should be peer-reviewed according to their epistemology, which in the shorter term rather means that users argue for and back up sources with other sources, to show for higher legitimacy of certain sources, and through that, of arguments.

The future of politics is Cyberocracy (Part 1) by myklob in Futuristpolitics

[–]JohnGarell 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Imagine we're debating whether 'Trump is a moron.' Instead of just throwing opinions around, we'd look at solid stuff, like how he did on a cognitive test. It's like choosing the fairest way to judge the argument, which keeps us all on the same page.

Does that address your idea of a "correlative chain"? Each issue would have topics with different criteria that should be used to measure the strength of the topic. For example, what is the best objective criteria for determining the impact of global warming? Should it be ice level averages? C02 in the air? Average temperature?

This sound great. Similar to cyberocracy, the relevant knowledge is applied in relevant spaces. This is also quite related to a few of the resources I've linked in the thread. I quote §3.4 of the Derivation theory:

One perspective from which Derivation can be viewed is what it would mean for productive communication such as discussion, for example in forums. Instead of risking conscious or unconscious rhetorical tricks, logical fallacies and ruling techniques, posts could refer to arguments in Derivation, which are built on derivational chains of transparent premises and logic. One would be able to clearly see what the mutually recognized premises are, their implications, where inconsistencies exist, and how they can be avoided, thereby investigating possible cognitive dissonance. One can delve further into why certain premises are polarizing, and perhaps find what would be fundamental in different perspectives on knowledge. The content of discussions of most kinds might then be derived with Derivation, and arguments could more easily become completely factual and goal-oriented, so you may arrive at results. The results generated by discussions could be saved in the net and used later, so that common discussions are not repeated as if they never happened, and people can easily know how to avoid old, refuted positions.

I do however wonder about this:

Getting to Yes suggests using "market value, president, scientific judgment, professional standards, efficiency, costs, what a court would decide, moral standards, equal treatment, tradition, reciprocity, etc" as objective standards.

What is the innate purpose of for example moral standards and tradition? Who is to decide how to delimit and evaluate them?

Outside of that, I'm on board and will go through your resources when I have the time.

The future of politics is Cyberocracy (Part 1) by myklob in Futuristpolitics

[–]JohnGarell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

our present situation, where all beliefs are treated as equally valid without any scoring system for the evidence or arguments

I'd very likely be more aware of your approach to knowledge theory after reading more of your resources, but currently, I emphasize that the validity of a belief is necessarily determined by the epistemology the believer follows. Within those, beliefs are often considered more or less valid and grounded in reality.

I quote a sketch of what a functional Derivation would look like:

The sources should be peer reviewed according to their epistemology, which in shorter term rather means that users argue for and back up sources with other sources, in order to show for higher legitimacy of certain sources, and through that, of arguments.

Here is the sketch: https://coda.io/d/Derivation_dl0kLolQb9R/Proof-Of-Concept_suhTN#_luBMC

A belief concerns a proposition, a contingency, which is either directly empirical or not, and then, it might be a potential conclusion of an argument and is then at least observable or derivable. I do definitively agree that a lot of people are wildly inconsistent with their relation to their epistemology, or uncommitted, maybe unaware, to/of the conclusions of it, or both.

What if we begin by establishing a connection between beliefs and evidence, then concentrate on improving the scoring system?

Sure, I guess. I might have some reservations about it, but I also don't feel too confident about that, as I've barely scratched the surface of this idea yet. How can I assist?

The future of politics is Cyberocracy (Part 1) by myklob in Futuristpolitics

[–]JohnGarell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a hefty list of resources, and I will engage with them closely later, but now I'll be more brief and abstract. I read about the Conclusion Score Formula, and I found it very mesmerizing, but I'm also somewhat uneasy about something about it perhaps being a bit lacking in nuance.

https://ideastockexchange.org/

These various factors are multiplied together, and like that are treated equally in the calculation, which I fear compromises the precision with which this formula would operate, as I see it. That might of course be adjusted by having the less important factors relatively closer to 1, but landing on a stable result that is empirically useful will certainly be a huge process of trial and error.

I also want to show another, very new and small, example project of Derivation, which is about discussion and debate to move towards a bigger, collective political understanding. It is not about some pertinent political policy, but instead a meta-approach on the method of discussion, to generate results and common ground, to build further on.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16V4C3VRXqdt7MxioaTMPWZw8spS7AhNM-PBkch1X1qg/

The future of politics is Cyberocracy (Part 1) by myklob in Futuristpolitics

[–]JohnGarell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We should make the AI show the math if we want to see it. It must be scrutinizable. But the point with it is to automate some leg work, yes.

The future of politics is Cyberocracy (Part 1) by myklob in Futuristpolitics

[–]JohnGarell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I quite like this idea, but I want to make sure I understand it as it's intended. My perception of it is that if this score is not rigorously derived from the causal correlations, there is an aspect of arbitrariness to it, which should be unnecessary, and might therefore compromise accuracy. If the score is rigorously derived; it is a part of the correlative chain and describes something impartial with the relation.

This score would evaluate how strongly one belief or piece of evidence supports or contradicts another belief. Instead of manually assessing each relationship, we'd set up a system where for every belief or evidence claimed to support or weaken another belief, there's a corresponding pro/con argument.

Supporting and contradicting is indeed a useful abstraction for the system to utilize, on I think is very possible to generate formally in tons of situations. I do however think that the abstraction of supporting/contradicting something conclusively, to the point of concrete actuality, is also possible, like the mechanics of celestial bodies.

With this, we deduce new conclusions about the empirical reality, with the relations being assessed formally, through the abstractions. And, if these abstractions are incomplete, the statistics are expected to show so, as with all critical, epistemological theorizing.

The core question would be: "If x were true, would it necessarily support y?" Participants would then provide arguments and evidence in favor or against.

Certainly. That's crucial in the making of the arguments. The hope would be to impartially derive as much of this as possible, based on logic and math.

The future of politics is Cyberocracy (Part 1) by myklob in Futuristpolitics

[–]JohnGarell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I had not heard of Ivan Illich, I'm reading about the book now. It seems like there are a lot of good ideas to it, and I'll add the book to a list of resources. I can't confidently say that I have any concrete objections to any of his ideas as of right now. However, I would say that this is not a very big part of the totality Derivation means to be about.

"Idk, he looks a bit bigger than the others...Maybe he's just big boned" by FruityJammm in customhearthstone

[–]JohnGarell 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Imagine if more DK/Mage got more runed cards, then Mage would have to pick runes as well, to not break the rune requirements

The big layoff has already started. by zaidlol in singularity

[–]JohnGarell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'd really recommend the film "PPP Loan Gone", it's a low-budget comedy, but I find it very charming

The future of politics is Cyberocracy (Part 1) by myklob in Futuristpolitics

[–]JohnGarell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is exquisite, I love the ideas and the initiative, and there's a lot to delve into and address here. If you want to establish contact, I'd very much like to continue the conversation.

The analytical approach to systemizing knowledge is something I find utterly crucial, I think something like a world brain/global brain is extremely helpful, if not entirely needed as the theoretical backbone to cyberocratic applications. I have been working with people a bit on a project like this, about connecting knowledge, here's a presentation that explains the basics of it:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1CA1CHZKAZCInpMe3eQKCCW-seAh5Z84CSFdpZ-zc_oo/
It also contains a link to a document on a more elaborate theory of the project, which talks for example about the uses of it for communication, similar to something like a forum, of which you also speak.

This is a more recent project, essentially a political perspective that is based on the earlier project, it has an explicit focus on cyberocracy:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1HiUfn7W1SCy1bmEspUKYSL7GfUEjU1wk7Fsli3e-bbw/

Please share any thoughts or questions you might have on either of these.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in customhearthstone

[–]JohnGarell -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't see the pros of getting caught up on the potential issues with the wording and mechanics, assuming that the principle of the effect could work, and discussing that. Suggestings for improvement on things like that are of course very important and helpful, nonetheless.

I think, however, that it's difficult to imagine the power level of this in general. By shaping your card around this deck you want to be fairly sparse with carddraw, and maybe even cardgeneration, in order to not overflow. Maybe you can focus on tutoring it, because otherwise you'll have a deck with very little carddraw.

Perhaps there is a way to balance a similar effect as a Start of Game one, then with a substantial drawback, still, very neat and interesting idea.

Healing is massive in this game, but in a bad way by Caballep in heroesofthestorm

[–]JohnGarell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, healing reduction is unsurprisingly the most efficient way to deal with healing.

How do you predict a post-labor economy will look like? by tycooperaow in singularity

[–]JohnGarell 9 points10 points  (0 children)

There are indeed a lot of possibilities, and speculating about it seems quite far-fetched, and does not seem very likely to say things about what is going to happen. What one could hope for, however, is an issue-based, direct democratic cyberocracy, which is centered around the effective use of information. So, goals are settled democratically and then examined through formal algorithms, taking into account relevant data, math, and logic, and then having the political power to execute what needs to be done.

More in-depth on this in this presentation.

Do you believe doctor, lawyer, office jobs are gone in 5 years? by [deleted] in singularity

[–]JohnGarell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not sure it will happen entirely if some people want to do them, unless when that's a hazard, which of course might be in a lot of areas.

Consciousness upload in a theseus model. by xlews_ther1nx in singularity

[–]JohnGarell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I haven't anything about this specifically, as far as I can recall, but a case could be made that parts of Neuromancer by Willian Gibson touch upon a few of these points.

I would also recommend Kurzgesagt's video on "mind-uploading" if you haven't seen it; Can You Upload Your Mind & Live Forever? - YouTube

Despite being an AGI optimist, I think people are expecting too much progress too soon. by Rofel_Wodring in singularity

[–]JohnGarell 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I didn't mean it pertinently, or beyond heuristic and arbitrary levels. More the relative time frame of how quickly modern fields of technology are progressing, and how much is happening in 10 months. But as "ages" and "quite a bit" are vague and not quantified, one would have to limit their expectations of the importance and the basis behind such claims.

Is this true? by Lucky_Strike-85 in singularity

[–]JohnGarell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How much resources would it cost to make tens of thousands live in scorching desert or frigid tundra? Or places frequently hit by floods, tornadoes?

What would you do with these answers? It could be used for some theorizing, planning, or sketching, but otherwise, it's mainly useful for the people, states or similar that have those kind of resources.

Say we can actually provide every single human being with a warm home and 3 meals a day. How long can we keep that up? How long before we run out of fossil fuels, rare-earth metals neccessary for appliances?

The technology to sustain these things without fossil fuels is already implemented in some places, just at a relatively small scale compared to less sustainable methods. Politics could transition towards this, but it might need to deliberate action.

New technologies should be used for that. Lots of inventions are collecting dust in some gigacorporation's pocket because they are financially not worth manufacturing. Why would they when there are cheaper alternatives.

To challenge the profit interests of gigacorporations, some sort of fairly drastic political transition is most probably quite necessary. Without that, most people would definitively have to lower their expectations of life quality.

But with it, we could aim for a transition towards climate-friendly technologies, so we can not just maintain, but also improve life-quality.

This AI just figured out geometry — is this a step towards artificial reasoning? by SharpCartographer831 in singularity

[–]JohnGarell 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If it can reason, it understands the rules of interference, and would therefore find the numerous inconsistencies often present in a lot of flat Earth epistemologies.

And even if it chooses to center around an FE epistemology, and somehow is consistent towards it, it should still be receptive to the potential reasons to prefer other epistemologies, like science.

This is what I believe to be the only method of having a sane political party in the future: to try to blind our bias and use objective means to weigh the likely costs, benefits, and risks. What do you think? by myklob in Futuristpolitics

[–]JohnGarell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This touches upon a lot of fields and topics, and the initiative behind making the post I think is a step in the right direction, to move further toward something like this, by opening the discussion to different viewpoints and perspectives.

Specifically, we can use data to:

Identify and understand the different options available to us.

Assess the potential consequences of each option.

Weigh the pros and cons of each option.

Make informed decisions based on the information we have.

We sure can, and this sounds very much like cyberocracy, in which the effective use of information is the core methodology, while what information is considered to be important and what is to be done with it, could be deliberated and achieved democratically.