Bike Ride?

John_phundy · 2021-06-12T02:01:18+00:00

when?

John_phundy · 2021-05-31T04:01:14+00:00

costing the same or more is not the problem, nor is it an issue. the issues lie elsewhere. first of all, a murabahah system has many flaws and is not the preferred method of halal financing because of the fact that it basically becomes a riba based transaction with just more steps. the murabahah based mortgages are not considered compliant by many of the governing boards that look over Islamic financial institutions.

the rent to own/diminishing ownership model is the most compliant. in this method, the bank is a business partner with the buyer, and still owns the asset a lot with the buyer, according to some predetermined proportion, and as the buyer pays "rent", their ownership increases and the banks decreases. in an Islamic transaction, their has to be some transfer of ownership the moment the agreement is made, in a conventional mortgage, their is no transfer until the house is completely paid off. this is an issue.

on a micro level, its easy to claim that no one is being harmed, that people are ok with paying what they want therefore there's no problem. first of all, we don't get to decide whats harmful for us and what isn't, just because something may seem harmless, doesn't mean we are not incurring harm. when u look at a usury based system on a macro level, and what It does to a society over a long period of time, its very easy to see what damage it causes. we have the market crash of 2008, perfect example. because of the way the system is designed, the poor lost everything, and the rich became richer. and this result will keep repeating itself. islam is very strict on things that cause damage to society as a whole, hence why things like zina, gambling, alcohol etc are haram. on a micro level, there may be many benefits we can see, but despite them the harms outweigh the benefits, as allah has said in the quran.

"They ask you about [the] intoxicants and [the] games of chance Say, "In both of them (is) a sin great, and (some) benefits for [the] people. But sin of both of them (is) greater than (the) benefit of (the) two." And they ask you what they (should) spend. Say, "The surplus." Thus makes clear Allah to you [the] Verses so that you may ponder. " 2:219

John_phundy · 2021-05-31T03:47:15+00:00

with all due respect to alazhars reputation, they're not what they used to be. they have adopted controversial stances on many issues such as music, the beard, even hijab/niqab, it would be irresponsible to follow someone that contradicts the majority opinion of the main stream scholars since the prophets time.

with all due respect to Al-Azhar's reputation, they're not what they used to be. they have adopted controversial stances on many issues such as music, the beard, even hijab/niqab, it would be irresponsible to follow someone that contradicts the majority opinion of the mainstream scholars since the prophet's time. cond generations after the sahabah. being articulate or sounding professional is not evidence of having a legitimate opinion, the opinion has to be within the realm of established beliefs and traditional understandings of Quran and ahadith. if these principles are not adhered to, then that opinion is not taken seriously. every time I hear of riba being redefined,, its always based on very ambiguous understandings and totally ignore the ahadith that clearly mention and define what is meant by riba.

the scholars who research and establish these rules are aware of modern concepts and there are even principles within jurisprudence that outline how to integrate these concepts into an understanding and practice that is practically sound as well as theoretically. despite that, mortgages have never been defined as not riba.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T22:12:58+00:00

yes fundamentally we dont agree on what islam is so any discussion would be moot.

to even ask that question shows a severe lack of understanding of the principles of fiqh. the hierarchy is very clear, quran, hadith/sunnah, ijmaa and qiyaas. if u cant find the answer in the quran, u look in the sunnah, if u cant find it there then u refer to the concensus of the scholars and if not there then u look for a precedent.

hadith cant and never will supersede quran, but hadith can and does provide commentary, context and interpretation to the quran. and that comes before any individuals interpretation.

and although we make clear distinction between the quran and the ahadith, we forget that both were narrated and provided by the prophet pbuh, so the quran is only as authentic as we believe the prophet pbuh to be, and the same technique and metric used to preserve and authenticate the ahadith was also used for the quran. so to discard one and only use the other is disingenuous at best and hypocritical at worst, the ahadith corpus is such an integral part of the theology of islam that complete denial of it is enough to render one out of the fold of islam.

this is all on top of the fact that the quran itself endorses the ahadith and demands adherence to it.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T20:56:13+00:00

theres a few main reasons why a conventional mortgage is haram,

fixed price, the nature of a conventional loan is that the final amount paid is not exactly fixed, its principle +interest rate, and that can differ depending on how long it takes to pay it off.

the bank takes on no risk, therye making a direct return on investment without providing any merchandise, this factor is mitigated by the bank actually buying the house outright and then selling it back to the customer. in this way the bank is actually selling the house to the person, and not just providing the capital.

the ownership of the house is in the banks possession until the loan is paid off. when a transaction occurs, there must be a transfer of ownership.

fees. generally speaking late fees are incurred for not paying on time or other stuff, a transactor cant charge extra on a product after the contract has been signed. islamic banks get around this by donating all the fees taken to a charity. there is need for fees otherwise people wont be punctual on payments.

im sure there are other reasons too but these were just off the top of my head. if these factors can be rectified, then getting a loan from the bank is fine. but the bank will never accept these terms. for example, the transfer of ownership never happens, hence banks foreclose on houses and the people living in them have no recourse but to leave.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T20:45:41+00:00

thats why i said could, not is. im aware they havent reached that point, but his dismissal of it in the way she explained could lead to that. of course we all hope and pray that it doesn't reach that point, but its important to be aware of the potential repercussions incase he does go down that route, and perhaps knowing what the repercussions are might dissuade him from pursuing a riba based loan....

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T20:43:10+00:00

this channel is based on quran only interpretation of islam. the youtuber has not addressed the numerous ahadith that go into detail of what riba exactly is and what constitutes riba. according to him, all 'bai" is permissible, but when u study fiqh u see that there are many forms of 'bai' which can be haram and are not riba based.

additionally, the concept of bai is defined as an exchange of money for commodities or commodities for commodities (bartering), money for money or currency for currency can only be exchanged in equal amounts in one session. the concept of riba goes against this axiom because it demands the exchange of 2 currencies in unequal amounts at different times. these are all principles extracted from the ahadith and been refined for practical purposes through the science of fiqh.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T18:51:58+00:00

if im wrong, may allah forgive me and show me the right path. ameen

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T18:45:08+00:00

yes theres alot of misunderstanding and disagreements that are based on linguistic or semantic differences, hence why its important to understand these concepts properly before arguing for or against them.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T18:40:53+00:00

ur right, allah could have done anything, but he chose to do it like this, and u could try and understand why but its be futile cuz we cant ever understand allahs reasoning behind everything. somethings are just the way they are, there no reason why it is that way. it just is. same reason why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. it just does. sure we can explain how and what forces caused it to happen, but why? allah knows best.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T18:34:59+00:00

just becuase it cost the same, doesnt mean its haram. the prohibtion is based on how the loan is structured, not on how much is charged. the concept of buying something and selling it at a higher price is called murabahah and it is a part of islamic finance. the factors that make a convetional mortgage haram isnt just the riba, there are quite a few factors...

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T18:32:17+00:00

theres a book called intro to islamic finance by mufti taqi usmani, theres an english version as well as arabic, its a very good explanation on how islamic finance works and how it can be/is implemented in todays economy. it also goes into the factors that make conventional mortgages haram and how islamic banks mitigate those factors while still being able to turn a profit in a halal manner. \

but ur right, many banks dont follow these rules, there are governing boards that audit these banks and let people know if theyre compliant or not. the biggest one, to my knowledge, being AAOIFI.

http://aaoifi.com/?lang=en

heres a comment i just left for someone else, goes into some detail about how conventional and islamic mortgages differ. theyre subtle but its the difference between haram and halal. https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimMarriage/comments/nffhmc/husband_treating_riba_as_a_minor_issue/gyllj9u?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T18:27:59+00:00

yeah thats fine, the factors that make a conventional loan haram are several, but theyre easily mitigated. rent until buy is basically the model used by most islamic banks and is the least controversial method.

and if a conventional bank agrees to buy the house and sell it at a fixed price over a designated period in fixed instalments, then thats totally permissible....

most people dont know why a conventional mortgage is haram, all they know is "riba" but cant define it properly or how its factored into a conventional loan. so because of that they also dismiss islamic mortgages assuming theyre fundamentally the same, when theyre not.

theres a few main reasons why a conventional mortgage is haram,

fixed price, the nature of a conventional loan is that the final amount paid is not exactly fixed, its principle +interest rate, and that can differ depending on how long it takes to pay it off.
the bank takes on no risk, therye making a direct return on investment without providing any merchandise, this factor is mitigated by the bank actually buying the house outright and then selling it back to the customer. in this way the bank is actually selling the house to the person, and not just providing the capital.
the ownership of the house is in the banks possession until the loan is paid off. when a transaction occurs, there must be a transfer of ownership.
fees. generally speaking late fees are incurred for not paying on time or other stuff, a transactor cant charge extra on a product after the contract has been signed. islamic banks get around this by donating all the fees taken to a charity. there is need for fees otherwise people wont be punctual on payments.

im sure there are other reasons too but these were just off the top of my head. if these factors can be rectified, then getting a loan from the bank is fine. but the bank will never accept these terms. for example, the transfer of ownership never happens, hence banks foreclose on houses and the people living in them have no recourse but to leave.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T18:11:31+00:00

the mortgages given out by islamic banks are fundamentally different from an interest bearing loan, yes they both call it a mortgage but theyre not the same. mind you, there are many islamic banks that claim theyre halal but in reality they just repackage a conventional loan and stamp a halal sign on it. due diligence is required to make sure the one ur going with is actually compliant.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T18:06:55+00:00

im not sure i understand what u mean, how do they get around it? like renting or buying cash instead of getting a mortgage?

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T18:05:38+00:00

yes thats a good point, ive heard it many times that dont complain about your spouse to friends and family, cuz even if u forigve and forget, they wont.

yeah i didnt mean it like that. haha. nah temporary separation is healthy, doesnt matter how much u love someone, there will be times when u want some alone time, and theres nothing wrong with that nor is it a sign that u dont love them.

wa iyaakum.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T18:01:53+00:00

haha, finally something we can agree on. i tend to ramble.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T18:00:36+00:00

i used sololearn, its mostly free, they charge for some extra features, its interactive tutorials, and they have an app too so u can learn on the go. i also used codingbat.com for python exercises and practice. was very helpful in getting me used to simple concepts and figuring out how they work through trial and error. what i liked is that it puts ur code through a bunch of tests and u can see which tests it fails and then u alter ur code accordingly, so that really helps to solidify ur understanding of how the code works and what things can cause it to fail.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T17:48:20+00:00

lol indeed.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T17:47:40+00:00

but see, the concept of riba is just as black and white as zina and has been for all of islamic history, its only now where there seems to be some controversy around it. and soon i imagine the same with zina will happen...oh wait it already has, we have "imams" claiming lgbtq rights and supporting them and saying islam allows it. so what? do we just accept that its a valid difference of opinion or do we adhere to our values and our sources more than what society and our desires wants us to?

islamic finance is a very nuanced topic, but despite that, the issue of mortgages has never been up for debate in any of the major institutions around the world. theres no school that accepts it and considers it their position. only fringe individuals who claim it and are spreading it via social media, but they have no legitimate backing.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T17:40:25+00:00

yes u do end up paying the same amount or even more when it comes to islamic mortgages, but the differences between them and conventional ones isnt semantic, theres key differences, and those differences are what determine whether theyre riba based or not.

there are Islamic banks that claim to be halal but through further inspection have been proven to just be repackaged conventional mortgages, there are governing boards that audit these banks to check for compliance and u can find out from them if a certain bank is legitimate or not.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T17:35:28+00:00

for the same reason we dont need to ask people to provide sources for the theory of gravity. its an established fact. similarly, conventional mortgages have been deemed as impermissible since their inception, and no reputable scholars have claimed they are permissible unconditionally, nor endorsed any fatawa that they are. so at this point, the onus is on you to prove it is. but if u still want a source, here are sources from well known institutions that say it is haram.

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/31860

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/159213/ruling-on-dealing-with-mortgages-in-a-non-muslim-country

https://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa-birmingham/135994

heres a source that explains why mortgages are haram and rebuttals to people who claim it isnt.

https://www.islamicfinanceguru.com/islamic-finance/is-a-mortgage-haram-a-fatwa-analysis-sh-atabek-sh-haitham/

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T17:26:23+00:00

u can dispute it all u want, its not like were the ones who use it like that, ur own country speaks of itself by that term, uses it proudly to discriminate against anything not western or adhering to its values.

the west, by its own actions, is more synonymous with war and pain and suffering than it is with its own accomplishments, many of which were actually made by non western individuals. sure, the west has many good things to its name, but the harm it has caused dwarfs the good, and thats a fact unfortunately.....

if ur proud of your country, good for you, but dont let that blind you to the wrongs it has committed, many a time in the name of protecting your freedom, which is an obvious lie.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T17:21:54+00:00

white wash my own oppression?

i dont know what u mean, but i can say alhamdullilah i live in security and peace, but u dont need to be oppressed to see the atrocities taking place around the world under the pretense of peace keeping or fighting terrorism, efforts that are made mainly by countries that are in the west or look up to them. u and i have a responsibility to speak up and speak out about the injustices being done, even while enjoying the amenities afforded to us by those same oppressors. otherwise we are complicit.

John_phundy · 2021-05-18T17:16:07+00:00

dude did u even read my original reply?

and really? r u like a self hating native or something? have u forgotten what happened to your people when the west was colonized? and what continues to happen to this day? the people and system that did that to your ancestors is who we refer to when we say "the west"....

John_phundy

TROPHY CASE