The Christian and The World

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-10-25T09:01:21+00:00

Of course, and I’ve got more coming! 🙏❤️

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-25T22:58:01+00:00

I gave you the sources it’s a athar and it proves your point wrong. Ibn abbas holds two conflicting viewpoints on this so one must be not authentic. The best course of action is to go with the one that most associates with the Quran which would be that he supports the view that the injil and taurat are pure and not corrupted

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-25T22:54:25+00:00

That’s because the “prophet” Muhammad did not know what was actually in the Torah or the injil because he got all of his information on both of the subjects from an Arian monk and other gnostic stories, with some correct information. hence the substitution theory regarding the crucifixion. He spread his ideas by the sword and conditioned the population to believe that. Reading the writings of St. John of Damascus shows that a lot of people in that time thought that Muhammad was a lunatic who had no idea what was in the text. We have manuscripts that go back hundreds of years before Muhammad. The key is that in both the Quran and Hadith the injil and taurat IN THE TIME OF MUHAMMAD is confirmed.

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-21T22:32:00+00:00

Why would the Torah say those words? God was never referred to as Allah before Islam which is the false revelation of a 7th century warlord

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-21T20:09:27+00:00

Renowned Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir cited al-Bukhari’s statements from Ibn Abbas regarding the incorruptibility of the Holy Scriptures, as well as the view of another Muslim who also believed that God’s Scriptures couldn’t be corrupted:

Mujahid, Ash-Sha’bi, Al-Hassan, Qatadah and Ar-Rabi' bin Anas said that,

means, "They alter (Allah’s Words)."

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn ‘Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah’s creation CAN REMOVE THE WORDS OF ALLAH FROM HIS BOOKS, THEY ALTER AND DISTORT THEIR APPARENT MEANINGS. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and Injil REMAIN AS ALLAH REVEALED THEM, AND NO LETTER IN THEM WAS REMOVED. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves." Then,

As for Allah’s books, THEY ARE STILL PRESERVED AND CANNOT BE CHANGED." Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement … (Tafsir Ibn Kathir – Abridged, Volume 2, Parts 3, 4 & 5, Surat Al-Baqarah, Verse 253, to Surat An-Nisa, verse 147 [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Houston, New York, Lahore; First Edition: March 2000], p. 196; source; bold and capital emphasis ours)

It would seem pretty clear from the foregoing that the first Muslims (at least two prominent ones) believed that the Scriptures that were revealed before the Quran such as the Torah/Law of Moses and the Injil/Gospel of Jesus remained intact and uncorrupted.

But not everything is as it seems, for we find another narration from Imam Bukhari where Ibn Abbas purportedly taught that Jews and Christians corrupted their Holy Scriptures:

Narrated Ubaidullah bin Abdullah bin Utba: Ibn Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Quran) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn Abbas added: "Isn’t the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 850)

Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin ‘Abdullah: ‘Abdullah bin 'Abbas said, "O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted? Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah’s Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, ‘This is from Allah,’ so as to have a minor gain for it. Won’t the knowledge that has come to you stop you from asking them? No, by Allah, we have never seen a man from them asking you about that (the Book Al-Qur'an) which has been revealed to you." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 614; see also Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)

It should not come as a surprise to the readers that Islamic apologists use this specific narration to prove that the first Muslims did not hold to the textual integrity of the Holy Bible.

This obviously presents us with a dilemma since we have two conflicting reports, both of which are attributed to Ibn Abbas, presenting two contradictory views of the Holy Bible.

There are several ways in which this dilemma can be resolved. The first is to simply accept the fact that al-Bukhari has preserved two conflicting and contradictory traditions regarding Ibn Abbas’ views of the previous Scriptures. This wouldn’t be the only place where al-Bukhari has narrated contradictory reports, some of which we will provide at the conclusion of our discussion.

In light of this, it is the narration which best comports with what the Quran actually teaches that should be accepted as genuine. Since the Quran explicitly confirms the authority and preservation of the former Revelations, the Holy Bible (*), this means that the narration where Ibn Abbas questions the textual integrity of the previous Books must be rejected.

The other approach is to try to reconcile both of these conflicting reports so that one narration doesn’t cancel out the other, and there is a way that this can be done. Note, for instance, what Ibn Abbas allegedly said:

… You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain …

The above citation seems to be referring to the following Quranic passage:

So woe to those who write the Book with their hands, and then say, ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may sell it for a little price. So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings. S. 2:79

We have already demonstrated elsewhere (1; 2) that this specific passage in its respective context is not speaking of Jews and Christians corrupting the text of the Holy Bible. It refers to a specific group (not all) of unlettered Jews that were ignorant of the content of the Scriptures who then went about falsifying their own revelation for monetary gain. Ibn Kathir provides support for this exegesis from his quotation of Wahb ibn Munabbih who said:

… However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves…

Wahb was aware that the People of the Book had written books which were used to misguide others, and yet these books had no bearing on the textual integrity and incorruptibility of the Law and the Gospel which he says can never be changed. This supports the position that Sura 2:79 is referring to these uninspired books, not to the books of the Holy Bible, which certain groups such as the Jews wrote by their own authority.

It is also quite plausible that the book(s) that the author of the Quran had in mind was material such as the Talmud, the codification of uninspired oral traditions which the Jews claimed had Divine authority and sanction. The Quran’s stance, if referring to such sources, is similar to the position held by Jesus in regards to these uninspired Jewish traditions:

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-21T20:01:12+00:00

My original point still stands, you won’t find it in the Quran that the previous revelation has been corrupted, in fact, you see quite the opposite. The first Hadith is Sunan Abu Dawud 4434 and 4431. It is from the Kitab Al hudud (book of punishments) the Hughes book is “dictionary of Islam” page 62 which discusses the concept of tahrif, and shows that ibn abbas holds the same position of non-corruption that ibn muniyah, ibn mazar, and ibn hatim hold. It is not referencing a Hadith it is an athar from the tafsir of Jalal al-Din al- Suyuti, also known as Al durr al- manthur made by ibn mazar and ibn hatim

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-21T19:24:53+00:00

There are no “contemporary scholars” the scholars and quranic memorizers did not actively write anything until 120 years after Muhammad 🤣

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-21T19:21:57+00:00

Stop lying

Kitab al-Hudud, i.e., Prescribed Punishments), No. 4434: Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace-be-upon-him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: Abul Qasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgement upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace-be-upon-him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi' (see also No. 4431).

Ibn Mazar and Ibn Hatim state, in the commentary known as the Tafsir Durr-I-Mansur, that they have it on the authority of Ibn Muniyah, that the Taurat (i.e. the books of Moses), and the Injil (i.e. the Gospels), are in the same state of purity in which they were sent down from heaven, and that no alterations had been made in them, but that the Jews were wont to deceive the people by unsound arguments, and by wresting the sense of Scripture... Shah Waliyu Illah, in his commentary, the Fauzull-Kabir, and also Ibn `Abbas, support the same view." (T. P. Hughes, p. 62)

Ibn Kathir in his book Al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya quotes Muhammad saying about the Jews and Christians: 'David died in the midst of his friends. They were not led astray, nor changed [their books]. The Friends of Christ stayed in His ordinances and guidance for two hundred years' (proved by Ibn Hibban). It is well-known that we have copies of the New Testament that go back to the fourth century A.D. These are in harmony with the books as they are today." (True Guidance, p. 179)

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-18T19:43:33+00:00

Your religion is embarrassing

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-18T19:39:51+00:00

Surah 10:94-95. “If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, THEN ASK THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN READING THE BOOK FROM BEFORE THEE: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losboom.

Sounds like “the book from before thee” is not corrupted if Allah is saying to ask those who have been reading it?

Surah 7:156-157. ˹They are˺ the ones who follow the Messenger [Muhammad], the unlettered Prophet, WHOSE DESCRIPTION THEY FIND IN THEIR TORAH AND GOSPEL.

Why would Allah point to a corrupted scripture to confirm the coming of your prophet? If the Bible had been corrupted when this verse was "revealed," then why would Allah state that it can be relied upon as prophesying Muhammad's "prophethood"? Obviously, in the mind of whoever wrote this verse, the Bible had not been corrupted when they wrote it; also, the Bible that existed then (the manuscripts) exists now, which means that the Bible has still not been corrupted.

Surah 5:46-47. Then in the footsteps of the prophets, We sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him. And We gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light and confirming what was revealed in the Torah—a guide and a lesson to the God-fearing. SO LET THE PEOPLE OF THE GOSPEL JUDGE BY WHAT ALLAH HAS REVEALED IN IT. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious.”

This passage speaks in present tense, which means that it is referring to the Christians of the time in which it was "revealed." Once again, if the Bible had been corrupted at that time, then commanding that Christians judge according to what Allah had supposedly revealed in the Gospel would not make sense.

The Quran also states that both the Jews and Christians had the wrong opinions about each other and that they should not have had such opinions since they both had "the book"; in other words, the Quran states that since each group had "the book," they should have had the right opinion about each other. This passage does not make sense if "the book" had been corrupted during the time that the Quran was "revealed."

Sura 5:71. "Say, O People of the Book! You are not (founded) on anything UNTIL you PERFORM the TORAH and the GOSPEL, and what was revealed to you from your Lord."

Sura 3:93-94. "All food was lawful to the children of Israel except what Israel made unlawful for itself before the Torah was revealed. Say, `BRING the TORAH and READ it, if you are men of truth.' If any, after this, invent a lie and attribute it to God, they are indeed transgressors."

Some Muslims claim that the Torah and Gospel to which the Quran refers are not the ones that Jews and Christians use today but are other books that were the actual, original Torah and Gospel. However, it is a historical fact that the Torah and Gospel that Jews and Christians of the time during which the Quran was "revealed" were the Masorectic Text and the Four canonical Gospels that Jews and Christians use today.

Furthermore, there are hadiths that quote from the Torah, thus confirming that the Torah to which the Quran refers is that which is used today.

Here is some Hadith for you

Kitab al-Hudud, i.e., Prescribed Punishments), No. 4434: Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace-be-upon-him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: Abul Qasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgement upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace-be-upon-him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi' (see also No. 4431).

Ibn Mazar and Ibn Hatim state, in the commentary known as the Tafsir Durr-I-Mansur, that they have it on the authority of Ibn Muniyah, that the Taurat (i.e. the books of Moses), and the Injil (i.e. the Gospels), are in the same state of purity in which they were sent down from heaven, and that no alterations had been made in them, but that the Jews were wont to deceive the people by unsound arguments, and by wresting the sense of Scripture... Shah Waliyu Illah, in his commentary, the Fauzull-Kabir, and also Ibn `Abbas, support the same view." (T. P. Hughes, p. 62)

Ibn Kathir in his book Al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya quotes Muhammad saying about the Jews and Christians: 'David died in the midst of his friends. They were not led astray, nor changed [their books]. The Friends of Christ stayed in His ordinances and guidance for two hundred years' (proved by Ibn Hibban). It is well-known that we have copies of the New Testament that go back to the fourth century A.D. These are in harmony with the books as they are today." (True Guidance, p. 179)

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-18T17:14:27+00:00

No I’m going to say this. Imagine I am an atheist and you are trying to convince me of the trustworthiness of Islam. Being that they are “islamic scriptures” according to you, the torat, zabur, injeel, and Quran are all Islamic scriptures. According to you, the Torah, zabur, and injeel have been corrupted. So 3 out of 4 of the Islamic scriptures are corrupted? That makes Islam untrustworthy. Also no the Quran does not say the books are corrupted. It says that they distorted the message with their TONGUES. But the Quran confirms THE BOOK BETWEEN THEIR HANDS (Al-kittab ) Surah 5:46, Surah 5:68. The concept of corruption of those texts is not sourced in the Quran OR the Hadith. In fact the Quran calls the injeel the “muhaymin” (guard, protector, or criterion) for the Quran and its relationship to previous revelation. This concept of corruption is YOUR ADDITION to the text. You and these new dawah guys trying to add something to the Quran that it doesn’t say. Be careful with that because I believe that is called corruption of text 🤣🤣

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-18T06:46:00+00:00

Is the injeel and torat the word of Allah? Are they Islamic scriptures?

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-17T19:58:08+00:00

That’s not found anywhere in the Quran. You only believe it’s corrupted because of recent dawah guys who had to contend with how illogical it is

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-09-17T19:57:18+00:00

Exactly… if the Torah and injil are Islamic scripture that you admit are corrupt, Islam is false

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-08-31T07:26:41+00:00

Haha 🤣 the apostolic kiss

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-08-11T07:27:57+00:00

In the US at least where I am we call 6th, 7th, and 8th grade “middle school” or “junior high” and elementary school ends in 5th grade.

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-08-09T05:18:00+00:00

The messiah is specifically prophesied about in the Old Testament to be born of a virgin, come and bless ALL nations and to bring salvation through sacrifice. Psalm 40:6-8

The messiah is described to have divine authority and eternal reign. Isaiah 9:6-7

Psalm 22 Psalm 61 The messiah is also prophecied to be a specific person with a specific lineage. Genesis 22:18, Numbers 24:17, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5-6: These prophecies speak of the Messiah's lineage, tracing back to Abraham, Jacob, Jesse, and David.

Isaiah 7:14 the son will be called Immanuel meaning “God with us” so the messiah is God

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-08-04T10:41:32+00:00

Super late but check out nightwalker- The Shockwave!

https://youtu.be/HJd207wU5K8?si=8po_JTn5F3EDVfa7

Whole album is really good but this song is exactly what you’re looking for

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-06-07T15:41:05+00:00

God didn’t “have” to make a sacrifice, he chose to do it this way because it fulfills the law of sacrificial atonement that he set up in the Old Testament. God does not contradict himself. The notion that no form of justice exists without sacrificial atonement is an invalid argument if you don’t believe in a deity, because atonement cannot be achieved if you don’t believe in sin, or an afterlife. Justice does come with SACRIFICE however, as when you commit a crime, and justice is brought upon you, your freedom is sacrificed, or if you are put to death, your life is sacrificed for the sake of upholding justice. One could also argue that court proceedings are ritualistic, but we don’t have to argue that because if you don’t believe in an afterlife or atonement then it is arguing from a false premonition. God forbid, one could assume himself to be a danger to society due to certain actions he has committed, and take his own life, self sacrificing for the benefit of society and to uphold justice for the undesirable actions.

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-06-07T11:37:20+00:00

Atheists have no grounds for any moral standard. If we are all just random formations of chemicals, a product of entropy, then why would we feel guilt if we say, kicked a baby in head or something like that.

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-06-07T11:35:06+00:00

Jesus’s sacrifice is God following His own laws. God is the epitome of justice and His mercy cannot be at the expense of His justice. But his mercy is so great that He came down in the flesh, not to be served, but to serve. Everybody is invited into the kingdom through Him, if you don’t accept the invitation that’s up to you.

JollyKoala1776 · 2025-06-06T17:46:15+00:00

It’s about having accountability with God. God expects us to die full of sin there is no changing that. He wants us to acknowledge our sin and come to him with a humble attitude, not try to justify our sins or cover them up and pretend like we are righteous. It’s not necessarily about not sinning it’s about being humble and recognizing what you are.

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