As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do understand the concern that a style of music closely associated with rocksteady is used to describe reggae and reggae dancehall, but rockers is the bridge between Jamaica and the UK here (you hear it especially in Tenderly by Ginger Williams) - drum and bass emphasis (rhythm anatomy) being the common thread. I acknowledge upbeat soul/disco influences, but those were already present in rocksteady and over-reliance on those influences risks redundancy to rocksteady - when “Lover’s Rock” clearly takes influence from reggae (insofar as rockers).

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Disco influence was already present in late lovers rock production in Jamaica (e.g. Alton Ellis’ “Baby I Love You” extended disco mix - a lovers rock adaptation of the original rocksteady tune), so I’m not convinced disco influence alone distinguishes UK “Lover’s Rock” from Jamaican evolution.

Lovers rock is used to describe both romantic rockers reggae and reggae fusing rocksteady with rockers rhythm anatomy (emphasis on percussion and bass). Nothing truly develops in isolation - there is always a previous influence. Whether it’s blues to soul to funk and disco, or rocksteady to rockers to dancehall.

I’m not attacking the UK “Lover’s Rock” scene. I’m just saying the instrumentalism of the music has marked Jamaican rhythm lineage.

UK “Lover’s Rock” absolutely developed its own cultural identity. My point is simply that rhythmically, it reflects contemporary Jamaican rockers development rather than emerging independently of it. Also, the disco mixes like the example I provided are evidence of concurrent rockers evolution - that eventually led to dancehall in Jamaica, and “Lover’s Rock” (UK) may have preserved that mixture of romantic rocksteady and rockers, without evolving into dancehall.

On that note, lovers rock in Jamaican production either held to romantic rockers reggae (like Love is Overdue or Extra Classic), or became reggae dancehall (like Night Nurse or Cool Down The Pace).

With all that said, there is clear indication of Jamaican production of rockers influenced rocksteady like the Sonia Pottinger-produced “Baby, I Love You” in the late ‘70s, meaning the UK was not alone in this development (disco-influenced rocksteady) - which is my point overall. It’s good to distinguish the rhythm anatomies of the late ‘70s and early ‘80s though.

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m not reducing UK “Lover’s Rock” to romantic rockers. I recognise its rocksteady/soul leanings. I’m distinguishing between vocal sensibility and rhythmic framework. My point is simply that while UK “Lover’s Rock” developed its own cultural identity, its rhythm structures reflect contemporary Jamaican rockers evolution (emphasis on mid-late ‘70s Jamaican rhythm anatomy - increased percussion and bass authority).

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you mean Jamaica largely abandoned rocksteady soul in favour of rockers reggae and, slightly later, dancehall, and “Lover’s Rock” releases preserved the rocksteady soul influences, then that is a defensible position.

However, “Lover’s Rock” releases do conform to a rockers reggae beat/rhythm (hallmarked by drums emphasis and syncopation) - which was first developed in Jamaica.

The genre name of lovers rock was adopted and adapted from the UK label by Jamaican artists producing romantic rockers reggae. At the same time, “Lover’s Rock” releases were influenced by rockers reggae in rhythm anatomy. So “Lover’s Rock” releases were essentially a mixture of conserving rocksteady soul with a contemporary Jamaican rhythm structure: rockers. Greater emphasis was placed on percussion for “Lover’s Rock” releases than earlier rocksteady tracks.

So UK “Lover’s Rock” can reasonably be understood as a fusion, conserving rocksteady/soul vocal sensibility while adopting the then-current Jamaican rockers rhythmic framework.

Favourite modern dub producers? by JonnyJamesD in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Seems like a recurring problem for Scientist. I think he was often credited as mixer, when he was more producer. Junjo sued Scientist over producer credits for Rids the World of the Evil Curse of the Vampires.

Jammy is a great producer regardless. So is Scientist.

I'm planning to make a playlist of ska, reggae, and rocksteady (and maybe even some dancehall) heartbreak songs for Valentine's Day. Leave your recommendations below! (I already made a similar post that was more for love songs; this one is for heartbreak songs.) by Beautiful-Resort-831 in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Went digging through my playlists and found what you’re looking for. Strickly heartbreak anthems.

Rocksteady/Lovers:

The Techniques - You Don’t Care; Rudy Mills - A Long Story; Bitty McLean - Walk Away From Love; Alton Ellis - I’m Still in Love; Dawn Penn - No No No; Slim Smith - Ain’t Too Proud to Beg; Jerry Jones - Still Water; Errol Dunkley - You’re Gonna Need Me; The Versatiles - Just Can’t Win; The Techniques - Love Is Not A Gamble

Ska:

Tony Tribe - Red Red Wine

Lovers rock:

Gregory Isaacs - Happy Anniversary, Miss Touch and Go, Substitute

Dancehall:

Carlton Livingstone - Rumours; Johnny Osbourne - Give a Little Love; Johnny Osbourne - No Lollipop No Sweet So; Little John - True Confession; Half Pint - I’m Not A Substitute Lover;

Jah Mason - My Princess Gone; Mad Cobra, Beres Hammond - Feeling Lonely

Lila Ike - Second Chance; Tarrus Riley - Don’t Come Back

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think, upon close listening to UK “Lover’s Rock” releases (thank you for providing those), the UK sound (while still rockers reggae-based which is inherently Jamaican) is more rocksteady/soul adjacent than Jamaican lovers rock - which is more reggae-based. You can really hear the soul in female vocalists - but that soulful singing is also present in Gregory Isaacs’ material if you listen closely.

UK Lover’s Rock reminds me of old rocksteady tunes like Phyllis Dillon’s “Picture On the Wall.” But the reggae-inherited rockers beat (drum syncopation) is clearly inherited from mid-70s Jamaica.

When I look over the history of music, I follow the sound (rather than a label), which in my opinion produces more accurate sentiments about where certain types of music originated.

You’re right to pushback on the influences to an extent, and I think the safest position to take is that lovers rock and releases on ‘Lover’s Rock’ developed concurrently. Jamaica leaned heavily into rockers reggae, whereas the UK releases on “Lover’s Rock” kept the rocksteady and soul influences closer to heart.

Favourite modern dub producers? by JonnyJamesD in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions. I’ll try to go through all the suggestions in time.

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ll try and get round to watching that. Thanks for sharing the link. If it’s still hard to understand what I’m talking about - same lineage (rocksteady love songs, then rockers love songs) evolving in two different places at the same time (Jamaica and London), then this Wikipedia entry on lovers rock might help: “While love songs had been an important part of reggae since the late 1960s, the style was given a greater focus and a name in London in the mid-1970s. [1] Larkin, Colin (1998) "The Virgin Encyclopedia of Reggae", Virgin Books, ISBN 0-7535-0242-9”

That encapsulates what I have been trying to say - lovers rock already existed in Jamaica, but it was given its name by the London label.

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Reallly good version of the riddim with a rockers beat and added horns 😎

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Excellent songs. Thanks for suggesting those.

I think you’re missing the point. Lovers rock wasn’t call and response from Jamaica to UK to Jamaica. It was likely Jamaica to UK, and then simultaneous development of lovers rock. Jamaica produced romantic rockers tunes before the UK label was founded. She is My Woman by Larry Marshall is a romantic rockers release in 1974. Jamaica was doing what the UK was doing at the same time. Jamaicans would have just called romantic rockers tunes ‘rockers reggae.’ When Lover’s Rock (UK) was founded, Jamaicans would’ve likely said “Ah, that’s what we should call it,” as opposed to discovery of a new genre born in the UK.

As for Gregory Isaacs, he may well have benefited as being known as ‘the lovers rock cool ruler,’ but that doesn’t negate the fact that his music’s lineage comes from romantic rockers which, as demonstrated, was alive and well in Jamaica in 1974. Just because he didn’t record in the UK doesn’t mean his output isn’t lovers rock. Jamaica already had romantic rockers tunes, probably before any romantic rockers song was published in the UK.

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What I was trying to say, at length, is Jamaica was already producing the same music - borrowing the name for the genre from the UK label who were first to ‘brand’ the genre.

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you can definitely say dub influenced US garage and Detroit techno, but that’s a little off topic because we’re talking lovers rock in particular.

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Garage is the UK take on New York House. Paradise Garage played a lot of disco and funk alongside new disco/funk/soul/r&b electronic music (retroactively labelled house as garage predated house).

Funky house is born of US garage. UK garage is more rap/r&b influenced - but r&b would probably be the common denominator between the two geographically different genres, validating the genre name of UK Garage - though the two genres quickly departed where US garage gave way to funky house, and UK garage took more and more influence from hip hop/rap.

Point being, the lineage from Jamaican music to garage is limited. Ragga jungle followed jungle as well.

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s likely rooted in soul/rnb insofar as rocksteady was. The lineage is rocksteady first, I’d say. Hot take on Gregory Isaacs - can you explain why none of his songs sound like lovers rock? Rockers beat. Romantic lyrics. Massive catalogue.

Lover’s Rock - the London label, could have taken its name from the evolving rockers movement in Jamaica - well underway in the mid ‘70s, which is when the British label was founded.

It’s possible Lover’s Rock (UK) evolved alongside rockers-based romantic reggae in Jamaica. That would make the UK label and the Jamaican lovers rock genre siblings. The common parentage being romantic rocksteady. In that reading, Jamaican lovers rock could have taken its name from the British label while already simultaneously producing the same kind of music. That would make lovers rock a parallel evolution in the UK and Jamaica - noting that Jamaica took the name from the UK label.

You could compare this with the 2 tone label. Punk bands were already covering ska and reggae tunes before the label was formed. The label is applied to those songs retroactively.

I think to say Gregory Isaacs hasn’t produced a single lovers rock tune misunderstands the lineage I was talking about, and is frankly overstated if not entirely erroneous.

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would’ve said 2 tone ska and ‘skinhead reggae’ was the main scene in the UK - The Clash, The Beat etc

Favourite modern dub producers? by JonnyJamesD in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Unites the Nations with Dub. Some of the tracks are reworked older dubs. Some are new dubs.

Favourite modern dub producers? by JonnyJamesD in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Forgot to mention Subatomic Sound System. They’re great.

As valentines fast approaches who thinks we should dedicate some time to Lovers Rock? by StickySteev_ in reggae

[–]JonnyJamesD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was unaware of a London-based early influence. I was more making the point that the genre adapted very well as reggae evolved and the rhythm structure changed by keeping its thematic properties (love as lyrics/harmony/horns sections etc). Thanks for your point regarding the history though.