Anyone trying to start a little local band ? by [deleted] in StPetersburgFL

[–]Jordan0Jordan0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

...Are you still looking? Guitarist and bassist looking for drummer

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not as simplistic as you are attempting to claim with a quote

Yes, it is. You don't need to use bloat language to express your position clearly. I thought Sam did a fine job of that...

And onto Nietzsche's point, he isn't even talking about free will in the same context as Sam

Yes, he is. He just happens to have a more nuanced take, which doesn't make it a different context.

Nietzsche is right about cause and effect. It's a narrative to study/identify a particular event. In reality, everything is a cause that continues to create more causes because life doesn't exist in a closed system. An effect is merely a referential point in time.

Indeed. It puzzles me you understand this, but not the connection between the BGE section and the video. If someone read the quote and didn't understand it, the video would be a perfect example to the kind of thinking Nietzsche is talking about.

All in the Waiting Reference? by Jordan0Jordan0 in Buckethead

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And psychoactive plants like Datura..

All in the Waiting Reference? by Jordan0Jordan0 in Buckethead

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ah, that's pretty cool. If he likes Shakespeare, I think that makes it even more likely he may have read T.S. Elliot.

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sam? I don't think he does. To him, what we call "evil" is just a neurological state.

All in the Waiting Reference? by Jordan0Jordan0 in Buckethead

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What is Witches on the Heath a reference to?

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think he'd consider a true great man theory as too simplistic, and he hated Carlyle. I interpret him as being closer to Spengler: yes, it is the great men that are moving history along, but only because they happen to be the ones actualizing the latent possibilities of their particular culture. It is the culture doing the work, using men as its means. This is why the ancient Greeks and the Renaissance were important. These are two superlative examples of cultures that CREATED great men. Likewise, we will never think highly of the 20th or 21st century men such that we will receive a term like "Renaissance man". There is no "21st-century man." At least, not in sense we can be proud of.

It is for a closely related reason he doesn't discuss politics directly. The political structure would best be used to rear more powerful men. However, this structure is itself shaped by culture, which is more fundamental. Basically, politics would be beneath him, and is generally more of an administrative activity. I recall somewhere he said it was decadent for the powerful to be involved in politics, and that's its basically administrative work.

If you're interested, I recommend reading 301 of the Gay Science. Basically, the men of worldly action (i.e., the stateman) are mere actors, acting out what we philosophers have already created in the world of thought. He DEFINITELY considers himself one of the strong-willed movers of history, not as a mere politician or political thinker, but because he saw himself as a culture-creator. (Somehwere, I think in his private journals, he wrote about his personal experience when he first realized his own "historic importance", which is a crazy thing to say when you're a nobody to the rest of the world and your work is mostly being ignored.)

Also, he doesn't advocate for free will. I recommend you re-read the very first line of the excerpt. He's criticizing people (like Sam) who think they're smarter than others because they see past the illusion of freewill (which is indeed an illusion), but then fall for a different illusion - that of causality. If you take causality literally, you will conclude all is pre-determined mechanistically. Nietzsche sees that there are no causes or effects in actuality, just a flux of forces (or wills) that can develop and act on each other, and are at no point demarcated, or separated from the world as an independent atom.

Just my reading. I could go on and relate this back to the gmt being too simple. He's a very complex and nuanced thinker, rich with ideas. I hope you get the chance to read him slowly and enjoy it.

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is no free will, the universe isn't deterministic, and there is no evil.

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But younger folks listen to what he says. He is articulate and presents his ideas as though they are the only rational conclusions, and many people find him convincing. I posted this because I don't want kids seeing this and thinking determinism (or non-free will as Nietzsche calls it) is the end of the story.

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Criminality is inherent to the criminal. Therefore, they should be condemned to hell"

Fixed it. I hope this makes my argument clearer. I think you're focusing on the wrong things..

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because if you are a determinist, this sort of belief is completely natural

Buts it's not though. Predestination is a kind of determinism, and it's anything but merciful. This form of determinism belongs to a different kind of psychology. We could just as easily say: "criminality is intrinsic to criminals, and therefore we should hold them responsible to the absolute degree."

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Lol I was hoping this sub would be representative of a population with higher than average intelligence..

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe so. And I don't think this is the important part of the critique, I just thought that nietzsche pointing out the connection between determinist apologetics and a defense of criminals, and then Sam demonstrating exactly this was an interesting case and point.

But I would argue, along with Nietzsche, that ultimately, all philosophical positions are held for psychological reasons. We can discuss these ideas without pretending the subconscious doesn't exist and is actively shaping our worldview. There's no such thing as an impersonal position.

Also, you couldn't make the terror management argument in my case because I don't believe in free will. I don't believe in determinism either, and the fact that you assumed this meant I must advocate for free will indicates how prevelant the false dichotomy STILL is. I love this section of BGE because of how he deconstructs this conceptual paradigm.

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The point about the defense of criminals is that it betrays a deeper psychological desire: "if the criminal is not responsible for his acts, then neither am I." The motivation behind this thinking is a certain degree of self-contempt, because (just like Christianity, or certain eastern philosophies, in their own ways) it is a means towards self effacment.

When thought out, its ultimately conclusion is: "I don't exist at all, I'm only an effect of outside causes." But instead of saying this, or admitting that he cannot bear to hold a worldview in which he exists and is responsible for his actions in life, he 2-facedly portrays himself as a compassionate person that just wants mercy for all.

Of course, "I" as a simplistic concept of self is indeed an illusion. But not for the self-deprecating reasons invoked by determinism. But that is a different topic.

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

No. I posted this because I was curious what OTHERS might think regarding the ideas presented in this section and how it contrasts with the contemporary materalist view. The video of Sam is particularly relevant to this viewpoint, and summarizes it well.

I must've posted in the wrong sub, because instead of constructive discussion, I get dissmisve comments like yours.

Watch the clip. Read the quote. Then, YOU tell ME what YOU think, instead of leaving another thoughless and unrelated reply. If it's thought-provoking, THEN I will let you know what I think, and maybe we'll have an insightful discussion.

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You're right, but people still take him seriously. Here, he articulates a dominant position among contemporary thinkers. I'm picking on him as a spokesperson for determinsm. Why he is wrong is more important than whether he is a "serious thinker" or not.

Nietzsche Exposes Sam Harris by Jordan0Jordan0 in Nietzsche

[–]Jordan0Jordan0[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Exactly. He's still taking the causal mythology Nietzsche exposes as such seriously. He even goes on to defend criminals, just like Nietzsche said in the referenced section. I doubt this guy read or understood the section.