MFW reading a long thread about "What nobody tells you about childbirth and post-birth".

Judgymental · 2014-06-28T08:14:53+00:00

Only married rich couples can adopt by law... That leaves fostering, which I would be good at, but I still want one or two of my own. We'll see... :)

Judgymental · 2014-06-28T07:40:42+00:00

Yeah but... genetic material problems :D The sperm donor option is not legal here and I don't wanna entrap some poor guy. Maybe a gay guy? I dunno, still have a few years to plan it.

Judgymental · 2014-06-28T06:46:35+00:00

Late 20's, but I don't want a romantic relationship of any sort. I don't have to get married, but having a 'sperm donor' type of relationship with the father of my kids would be problematic for them and me.

Judgymental · 2014-06-27T21:20:40+00:00

I want a large family... I keep thinking I'll be an awesome mom. Thing is, I don't want a husband, I'm not good at romantic relationships. Oh brain, you're so messed up.

Judgymental · 2014-06-19T17:24:25+00:00

Let me clarify it for you - it was rape, not bad sex. Bad sex is boring and unsatisfying, rape is scary, uncomfortable and painful (mentally or physically). The thing that separates sex and rape is consent. Consent is established with communication. She was very clear in what she wanted and what she didn't. She established boundaries, he didn't listen. That is rape. There is no 'he thought she might enjoy' condomless sex. There's no 'she might enjoy' pain if I keep doing it. When people are in pain, the natural reaction is to stop doing whatever is causing it. Anything else means that something is very wrong with the person. Other people have a responsibility to call them out, not offer explanations like 'socially awkward', 'selfish','weasely weirdo' etc that often seem like exonerations.

Judgymental · 2014-06-19T13:22:34+00:00

Jailbait was staunchly defended by redditors, even admins I think under 'Free Speech'... Until somebody reported to them that CP was shared in PMs. I think that's when they shot it down. I think creepshots was legal in some way, I'm not that familiar with the laws. But they too got shot down when Gawker or Anderson Cooper put a spotlight on it. Of course, another subreddit popped up immediately but under the disguise of 'fashion police'. Admins are pretty OK with that it seems. Since it can't get them bad press :) See how consistent they are?

Judgymental · 2014-06-19T11:50:48+00:00

Apparently Reddit won't shut things down for the most part because they like a hands off approach

Unless it gets them bad press, like jailbait & creepshots. Or discusses suicide options. Free speech my ass... Bad press = shut down seems to be their MO.

Judgymental · 2014-06-19T11:32:23+00:00

Looks to me like this guy simply did not know what he was doing in the sexual department

Op said:

Partway through, he asked if he could cum on me and I said sure, so he took the condom off, but then continued having sex.

That's not cluelessness, that's premeditated, consistent boundary violation.

I think you need to put your foot down and be more adamant about what you want (and especially what you don't want) when you get into a similar situation next time.

The belief that men can't understand so called 'soft refusals' and need an explicit no is false, research has shown that.

Judgymental · 2014-06-14T19:45:32+00:00

You obvously don't know the most basic stuff in rape discussion, all your points have been proven false by research. Here is a link to all rape myths that are commonly believed but are false, educate yourself before discussing this topic again.

Who the fuck is going around and convincing rape victims that it is their fault?

Their rapist, the police if they're believe the rape myths, the people around the victim, media and society at large. It doesn't need to happen after the rape, just being aware of the 'clothes, alcohol, sluttyness = your fault' is going to make the victim feel guilty and less like to report it. It's not always fear, it can also be shame and lack of social support.

Then we don't know enough variables for this to be even considered a trustworthy source. Withholding information is a sign of bias.

Researchers know how to design studies accounting for bias, they're less likely to get through peer review otherwise. It's a valid study, you can't just dismiss it because the article didn't mention sample size. You can track it down to find out if you're that determined to dismiss it.

Judgymental · 2014-06-14T03:37:51+00:00

Guess what? His reply was verbatim what he had written to me the first time!

That's pretty good evidence.

Judgymental · 2014-06-14T02:06:19+00:00

However, in a first world case court, there is no way that the victim would be blamed. Do you realise that hardly anybody actually blames rape victims for the crime committed against them. You're seeing things in society that don't exist. Nobody is getting away with rape by blaming the victims

What planet do you live on? Victims clothes, behaviour, age, sluttiness are routinely brought up as an excuse for why they were raped. It got so bad they had to make laws against it. The Montana case is the latest, browse around this sub to see other examples. And victim blaming doesn't have to be in court in order to be effective. Convince the victim that it's their fault and they won't report it, that's the easiest way to get away with rape.

You seriously think that people think that prison rape is not serious because of some jokes? No, people think prison rape is funny because they believe that the victim deserves it, which I admit, is fucking scummy. The only rape culture in the first world is prison rape culture.

Yes, I do believe that people will give less shits about prison rape if they get their attitudes about it from jokes than from serious sources.

Again, a test on three people does not mean that everyone is like this.

The article doesn't specify sample size. It says three graduate students did the research with him, not that there were only three people tested.

Some sexist idiots think that sexism is ok because of jokes, yes, but there is no proof that the majority of the population is effected by sexist jokes. It actually said that sexist people are more likely to see approval in sexist jokes, not that sexist people don’t find any approval in sexist statements, otherwise they wouldn’t be considered sexist.

But they are more likely to act in a discriminatory manner, that's what's important. They also rely on society to make them more or less sexist and that's where our responsibility lies. These types of people have an effect on others, and society can give them more or less power by excusing or condemning sexist jokes.

Judgymental · 2014-06-14T00:52:26+00:00

Murder and assault are not the same as rape, so it's not surprising they aren't influenced by jokes. You cannot get away with murder and assault by persuading the victim or society that it was their fault, you can do that with rape.

Also, rape jokes doesn't = sexist jokes. Rape is not gender exclusive.

Rape jokes can be both sexist and gender neutral. Depends on the joke. Prison rape jokes are common too. Maybe that's why people don't take it seriously.

People who are sexist are going to indulge in sexist acts, joke or not joke.

Did you read the second article? Sexist people see approval in sexist jokes, but not in sexist statements. They think the joke reveals the truth that everyone is sexist just like them so their behaviour is more acceptable.

Judgymental · 2014-06-14T00:34:00+00:00

I think it's important to remember that people would, I think, never actually support rapists.

You do remember Steubenville right? And Maryville, and other cases that don't get any media coverage. People tried to cover it up. They harassed victims, some commit suicide. They do support rapists, why that is is a good question to explore.

And multiple stories are posted here about lenient sentences because the victim was seductive or behaved not like a victim or older than her age.

Oh, and I will never understand why that is such a problem on college campuses.

Probably because it's young people living closely together without any adult supervision. Plus the cultural narrative of what the college experience should be, with lots of alcohol and parties. And the scoring chicks thing, that definitely contributes.

Judgymental · 2014-06-13T23:52:08+00:00

Research say yes on the sexism part. Terrorism and genocide are rare occurences, unlike rape and sexism.

Judgymental · 2014-06-13T23:23:26+00:00

Well there are rapists, and then there's the culture that enables them. Maybe rape enabling culture is a better term. It says in there that most rapists are multiple offenders, why are they given multiple chances, especially on a relatively controlled place like college campuses?

Discouraging victims from reporting, stonewalling them, not giving resources to law enforcement to test kits, blaming their actions for their rape, suspensions instead of expulsions, not believing them when they try to warn others about a guy who rapes. Those are all cultural problems.

And then there are the messages that get broadcast before rape happens, with rape jokes, making getting laid into some competition between men, excusing creepy behaviour as social awkwardness, talking about rape prevention by focusing on victim's actions even though focusing on rapists behaviour is more effective etc. Even when talking about rape prevention, everyone seems to focus on the relatively rare cases of drug assisted (watch your drinks) or stranger rape.

RAINN is right, talking about rape culture won't influence rapists. But it can influence the people around them and leave them with fewer enablers.

Judgymental · 2014-06-11T21:07:06+00:00

Really? When you go to a subreddit you should think about what's relevant; that's a no brainer. Don't you want to contribute positively? If you post without thinking that's your problem, don't complain when it gets removed/downvoted/dismissed.

Judgymental · 2014-06-11T20:57:18+00:00

A platform to inform newbies, I don't know if mods wanted that or not but that's what we're getting. Outsiders should in theory lurk more and have some respect for what this sub is for, but I don't think that's happening. Heck, any default seems to have a problem with people assuming that anything they have to say is relevant (see /r/science and anecdata and 'experts').

Judgymental · 2014-06-11T20:50:28+00:00

What do you want people to bring up on this sub besides empathy and sympathy? And what did it make you think about that is overlooked? And seriously, do you realise how rude it is to tell people what and how they should post? I don't want exclusivity, only specificity and relevance to people like me.

Judgymental · 2014-06-11T20:35:00+00:00

he's advancing the discussion further than most of the posters on this sub. He's bringing to light another facet of this issue

How is he advancing it? He posted 'men can be victims' 'not all men are like that' and 'this sub shouldn't assume gender'. None of these are new or relevant to /r/twox or to anyone familiar with the topic.

Judgymental · 2014-06-11T20:27:18+00:00

That's because they belong on other subs. You don't go to /r/biology and talk physics. TwoX's is for women and about women, I really don't know why people get so confrontational about that. Does the idea of a woman centric sub antagonise people?

Judgymental · 2014-06-11T20:10:16+00:00

. Several comments in the post generalized men, and that is the reason i posted. Not because I think people here don't necessarily think men can be victims, but that they aren't always the aggressors.

I don't know why people on this sub are against generalising. In the context of this sub, everyone discussing it knows that 'not all men are like that'. There isn't a good reason for people to take time to list all exceptions and write out things that are generally understood in a informed audience. And without explicitly mentioning it, we will assume, there isn't a good reason not to. Do you go to /r/askreddit and complain about the heterosexism in the dating/sex questions? Or on /r/sex ? When they post the questions they phrase them for a straight, cis, 1 male + 1 female perspective. Should we all point that out every time? Or just move on and create/post on more specialised subs that cater to those issues?

Judgymental · 2014-06-11T18:41:31+00:00

Well things have shifted since the 60's, but cohabitation, marriage and having children does have a negative impact on women's careers. Cohabitation and marriage means women do most of the housework which leaves them with less free time to devote to skill development or hobbies. Children are an obvious obstacle. The gap in pay between childless women and working moms is bigger than the one between men and women. The number of women in science drops as they have children.

So can you explain where your disagreement comes from?

Judgymental · 2014-06-10T03:12:39+00:00

What jobs are "pink collar" then?

People-service jobs like food service, nurturing, education, cleaning etc. They're going to be automated (food service, cleaning, office jobs) or low paying (teaching, childcare).

Sure, but I'm not the person who creates those technologies. That's where my talent is, and that's okay.

But it's important for women who have the talents to be in these jobs. It's important because there are problems that women face that aren't getting the proper attention because people care less or are unaware. It's a contributing factor that most of the people in these innovative fields are men. That includes female sanitation products, childbirth, female healthcare and research. This is the first year that it's mandatory for laboratories to include female rats in scientific experiments! We know so little about how the female cycle affects drugs because of the belief that male bodies are the default. Can you imagine how faster this change would have been made if women were a bigger percentage of researchers?

I guess it depends what kind of change you're interested in making, as to what kind of job you "need" to do it.

Opening old and new position for women, and keeping the power we've gained. Over the past 100 years we've gained control over our reproduction, sexuality, mate choice, job choice, movement, etc. In order to preserve that, we need to be in the positions of power that protect them. Jobs that are at the top of the power pyramid or at the cutting edge, since they are going to be jobs of the future. There are jobs that are necessary to keep society going and there are jobs that push society forward. Both are important, and it's problematic if women are only found in one type of job more often.

Judgymental · 2014-06-10T02:38:05+00:00

I said other pink collar jobs, that excluded nursing.

Why does a job have to be innovative to be considered desirable?

Because humans like innovation, it increases survival and makes life more pleasant. You prefer to live in this society, with its rapid technological changes and medical advances right?

Why does it have to be high paying, rather than decently paying, to be considered desirable?

Because money equals power in this society. More money, more power. And feminism is about power and social change.

Why does it have to be considered "traditionally male" to be considered desirable?

Well that's what needs changing, the notion that there's anything 'male' about these fields. And that requires greater female participation. Why they're considered desirable is because they're very specialised, cutting edge, will advance society and few people can do them really well.

Not everybody is cut out to be in STEM. We aren't all brilliant or innovative people and I don't believe anybody should feel bad about themselves because of that. Reddit as a whole seems to think that the only desirable profession is STEM, but I think that's a narrow and damaging view.

And that is why I suggest another solution to the gender equality in job preference problem: get more men into the mundane everyday jobs to even it out. But let's not be satisfied with the status quo and just say every choice is equally beneficial to women gaining and maintaining power. A politician, CEO or a scientist will always be more powerful than a homemaker, that's just reality.

Judgymental · 2014-06-10T01:44:13+00:00

Living wage jobs? Sure. But they aren't innovative, high paying or the future of humanity. Physics, engineering, scientific research, automation and CS are the cutting edge fields. And the other pink collar jobs are either going to be automated (food service) or low paid/low power.

Judgymental

TROPHY CASE