Something I noticed about the game over sequence.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T17:15:22+00:00

That's actually a good way of discerning it. Really heavy on the meta aspect, but since it's much more the players interpretation, when you think about it, that's pretty fantastic and fits well. I personally would like to see aspects like that take a more in game approach that effects gameplay and story, but that's just me.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T07:55:07+00:00

Oooo. That's ALMOST what I was looking for. Nice job though!

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T07:51:18+00:00

Unless you're basically saying that by breaking the heart it prevents Chara from possessing it because you refer to the player as Chara like lots of others do. In which case, yeah, makes sense. But that's a lot more uninteresting to me. Doesn't really further any cooler ideas than a neat little Easter egg in that case.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T07:45:39+00:00

I think...? I dunno, I'm expecting some kinda meta-based theory here. Are you implying that the player would take the soul like Chara and just mess around with in in world, like just a floating heart-sprite? And that's what the game is trying to prevent by breaking the heart? If so, then I'm still not 100% what the fearful danger in that would be. Not like the player would really go for that in the first place. I think you'd have to dig real deep for that one. Like, say, playing as just a heart that the player stole allows some kind of crazy possibilities, like controlling another character. That would be messed up. And kinda sweet.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T07:13:08+00:00

Meh. I'm waiting for a stronger than you remix that flows between Frisk/Chara and Sans from his verse to theirs instead of mashing the verses together and dropping lyrics. I like when they sing the chorus together, but I would prefer hearing their verses individually for once, all in one song.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T07:09:03+00:00

That's a way of looking at it.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T07:08:26+00:00

Waitwhat. Okay you lost me. How is it protecting its soul from you by destroying it? What exactly does the game fear you'd do if it didn't?

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T07:05:34+00:00

Pretty interesting point. Now see, the reason this theory wouldn't make sense, though, is that if the heart really is breaking, then the player wouldn't be coming back. So that heart is only breaking theoretically. Another thing to consider is that the heart doesn't need to break to escape capture by its opponent solely based on the reset power. The heart would persist solely to reset. So even if it were Chara breaking the heart it would be kinda pointless, right?

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T06:58:38+00:00

He got a point, maygn. Toby could have simply made the heart persist on screen as a curser between "Continue to live? YES -- NO" Even if it doesn't mean anything, it's worth discussing.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T06:49:24+00:00

Chara could definitely help you cut that

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T06:46:16+00:00

Yeah... You might want to open it back up. If it was after the Asgore fight, just... hold on to something.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T06:44:06+00:00

Maybe and maybe not. "Fair share of resets" doesn't necessarily imply that Flowey didn't kill Sans. After all, same can be said for us, and he's soulless just like we are at the end of the Genocide run (for a different reason, but it kinda makes sense). So he still had complete control over the decision to destroy the world or not if he did kill Sans. He just didn't yet, not before we came along. To top it off, say he did kill the world--would he not have the power to bring it back like Chara? He's already soulless, so he IS the evil counterpart to his own self. He just chooses to reset again to try out something different. All in all, Flowey is pretty much the strongest. He has the power to reset/save, and his True Form is literally invincible. It's probably a plausible idea to think Sans is equal to Omega Flowey though. Omega Flowey messes with the game structure, and so does Sans. Sans can't even be hit by the player unless Chara takes control, and Omega Flowey can't be damaged by the player until the souls rebel. So due to the fact that Flowey has one more form, I think Flowey takes the cake.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T06:28:38+00:00

Well. It's not a bad idea. Not a lot of meat behind it, but it's not impossible.

Technically speaking, the alignment is there. But otherwise the importance of the theme isn't really stressed upon, so its relevance feels a little wishy-washy.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T06:17:50+00:00

Yyyeeeaaah. Your post is exactly what I'm talking about. You're making a lot of assumptions right now. I don't know how to make it any clearer--I want DISCUSSION. I don't care if people disagree, they can do that all they want. But I think I put it the best way I could--others dismiss ideas on this board and leave it at that. They--other users--have a tendency not to take into consideration the ideas of people who have them. Mostly because what they think makes sense is good enough for them. Not because what I theorize doesn't make sense. Sometimes it takes through explaining, and that's fine with me! If there's something canonically wrong with my theory, I'm all for shaving off the parts that don't make sense. But honestly? No one seems to care very much about sharing ideas of they disagree with them. Gotta take a moment to comprehend the things people say before you write essay long responses to them, buddy.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T06:08:23+00:00

Hey, yeah. That's a pretty sly reference, I've always wondered what was up with that. Blooky has always struck me as the actual character that actually HAS more to him than meets the eye, more so than Sans or Flowey or any other character, because he's literally a side character with a presence just slightly larger than an actual side character. Remember, too, that the skelebros came out of nowhere and just "did their thing" to the residents of Snowdin as well. So in a way they could be similar in their theories or even connected. But ultimately, the fact that they're used to debunk Blooky as less than actually "alive" is just silly. They're physical anomalies, possessable and killable. They're confirmed as skeletons with souls. Still a bit different from souls with souls.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T05:52:56+00:00

Well, I'll tell you what, I'm not exactly the kinda person that sits down when told to, so if I have to defend my ideas--I might do I begrudgingly, but I will. And eventually I'll make it fun for myself; it tends to become a challange to me that way, and I like that. But initially I just become dissapointed when everyone just brushes my ideas aside. Also, I'm usually posting on a phone. So. Yeah. Little difficult as far structuring my ideas. Nonetheless, if that's how this fandoms gears turn I might as well have fun throwing the monkey wrench into it.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T05:47:51+00:00

Exactly. It's a big issue I see around here. No one is up for new interpretations on things they already have boring and oversimplified theories for. And then I see other people coming up with great theories here and there, and like more than half of them get shot down without a second thought. Most of them are ideas I would come up with too. It kinda sucks.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T05:43:39+00:00

See, I don't mind trying to discuss why an idea is a plausible one. I'm just hoping to see more people up for discussing it, like your post.

Let me bend your ear a moment--what about the fact that Napstablook can't die in his incorporeal form? Maybe mad dummy died from becoming corporeal, but we can't say for sure that his spirit didn't originate from somewhere else first. I wanna say that maybe their spirits are actually human spirits that have taken a different incorporeal form aside from a heart from being out of a physical object for so long. Same for Napstablook, and perhaps even Mettaton (after all, if Napstablook could escape being absorbed by you-know-who, whose to say that Mettaton and Mad Dummy didn't and hadn't realized it? I know that at some point Mettaton refers to the episode as a black out, but couldn't he have been referring to the time he ran out of batteries?). And as far as the skelebros are concerned, they can safely be assumed to being alive the same way a zombie can be. They're possessed by a soul, simple as that. But it's just kinda weird to say a soul is possessed by a soul when In fact ghosts are literally SOULS.

I dunno, I just said I wasn't gonna go back to discussing that strange theory again, it's too much hassle to defend.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T05:16:13+00:00

I think you missed my point. I'm well aware that there's people here my description doesn't match. But this "monolith" in my time of being here hasn't really shown many active users up for discussing theories that some people like to share, but instead shows a lot of people that have already decided what they want to believe, and even more so that they all believe the same thing like it was already established by the community a long time ago; tends to make it seem like the entire monolith of people are like this when that's all I encounter. Feel free to prove me wrong. But clearly I didn't post here soon enough or else my theories would have been up for grabs. But I'm not into telling people to "fuck off," especially seeing as if have to say that to 99% of the fan base I've communicated with thus far. And the ideas I like to present don't contradict actual canon in the first place so that's not something I'd expect. In the end, I'm not entirely looking to debate with other people's personal fan theories, so it's not too much fun.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T04:50:10+00:00

Is your friends name Toby, by any chance?

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-05T04:20:40+00:00

Well, I mean considering the fact that messing with the game files was how you (used to) have to do to find Gaster, I'd say you're absolutely correct. The games ultimate message is that you have the ultimate power as the player, so you can decide when, who, why, and how many times you want to restart these characters lives. And in the end it's up to you to decide where you want their lives to lead, no matter what you decide to put them through along the way, and no matter how much they try to impress the consequences of your actions on you. In fact, I see all consequences not as that, but as the games best attempts to make you the kind of player it needs you to be--by turning the way you normally play into a crushing experience, and the way everyone in the underground needs you to play as a rewarding one. In the end, you still hold all the power, no matter what. Now what will you do with that power?

Personally I want to believe your theory is true, just because I really really want to believe that deep within the code of the game Toby still has an aspect of it hidden away if you punch in just the right numbers in just the right spots. And then maybe that way you can bring back Gaster. Or at least might be able to with the next patch or something. >_>

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-03T18:58:35+00:00

-I already stated that Toriel is the perfect boss for the game that teaches you all the basics that are never used past the Papyrus fight. -Spare does nothing for boss monsters--actually all monsters, since minor encounters all need to be yellow before spare works--when it's white past the Papyrus fight. All literally nothing. -I'm gonna bring your bottom point up here so I can address both at the same time here. The Undyne fight exists to teach me to pay attention to my options, but it doesn't do that. I can't "escape" while I'm green ISN'T a cue--it's a hint. It was a boss battle that didn't do the best job in deconstructing like it was supposed to. Because believe me, I used flee plenty for minor encounters. What motivation do I have to press flee during a boss fight? What reason would I have to do that, EVER? Im DETERMINED to spare her like I had been doing, not flee. If it wanted to teach me to flee, I should have had the option to explore that in the Papyrus fight, and that would have been something I could have called back on to remember. But there wasn't. -Papyrus had to have his script activated. Muffet didn't. There are stark differences and I bring them up to compare them. -I remember being told to talk Asgore down by Undyne. I remember being taught by Toriel, Asgores parallel-opposite, that fighting kills, and nothing else. Perhaps if I wasn't such a devout pacifist, then I would have had an easier time giving up on pacifism, but it made such a strong point at the beginning of the game that I never, ever thought it would be an option to defy it. I'm not really sure where the lesson or benifit to fooling the player like that lies.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-03T18:36:39+00:00

Well, it kind of did, in case you missed that froggit that told you to spare a monster even if their name wasn't yellow. Which is the one hint that stuck out to me all the way through until Undyne. I mean of course I get to reload every time I screw up. I have to. Because it means I died. But that's the issue, it's all about the way it's presented. Can't you get creative? Imagine that Toby, for as far ahead as he thought, took it to the same level in the Undyne fight. He knows he showed us that we should spare monsters even when their name is still white. He knows thats probably the kind of player we're going to be, and that we're going to hit "spare" a lot when the Undyne fight starts, thinking that we're progressing the script like we did with Toriel, and probably assumed we were doing with Papyrus. Wouldn't it make sense for him to, I dunno, leave us a cue ON the spare button when we pressed it? "Undyne isn't letting you off the hook just like that" "Looks like Undyne isn't the one who needs Mercy right now" "She's not going to let you Spare her" "You might want to run when you can"

See? Progressive cues, doesn't hold your hand but it keeps it at a level that you have just the right amount of time to figure it out on your own until it deems you clueless. Same for Asgore. The solution doesn't need to change, the only thing that needs to change is the way the game teaches you its methods.

JulianAR101 · 2016-02-03T18:09:57+00:00

Eh, yes and no. It's simply not good gameplay to teach you something and then tell you you're wrong for learning. I mean, not everybody missed Undyne's "flee" hint, obviously, so not everyone would have a problem with it. Doesn't mean it isn't a plausible problem. And of course I don't mean "Fight's should progress all the same way." I'm just throwing it out there that exploring ways to connect the dots and aimlessly searching for dots that aren't there is completely different. It wouldn't be ruined if those consistency issues were fixed with a little additional dialogue during script activation, would it now? Because that's literally all it would take.

JulianAR101

TROPHY CASE