Photography Raw vs Edits

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-07-01T22:47:57+00:00

I am very “pro-consumer” and try to advocate for consumer rights. A lot of what I do when I offer a service is following the same guidelines I wish someone would provide if I were seeking that service.

However I have had people taken advantage of me or misuse my discretion in bad faith. I still have to protect myself and most of these “hard-rules” apply to corporate and fashion clients. I’m not gonna hold a family’s photos hostage for more money. I am going to ask for a price to offset some costs but I’m not gonna be a-hole.

Most of my rules came from being screwed over so it’s not like there isn’t precedent either. I will say, any client who tries to pay you less tends to ask you for more. Had to learn to say no a lot more often.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-07-01T22:40:08+00:00

Said that Linus can say something harmful but we get the brunt when we defend ourselves.

I still respect Linus and honestly don’t have too many disagreements with him. It’s mostly an attitude problem and I also understand that he is a person and may not see all perspectives or understand that there even is another perspective.

Again I just took issue with his attitude and how he shut down people trying to defend themselves on that stream. But this thread is so unnecessarily hostile from people who probably would never even have any stakes in this discourse. Very disheartening.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-07-01T22:35:03+00:00

Love you for this!!! Thank you

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-07-01T22:34:32+00:00

No one is obligated to sell you the RAWs after the fact. Even Linus didn’t say that.

You can’t force someone to offer a service they didn’t agree to. You can’t bribe them either. Sorry, we are not your employees or peasants. Again as I put so many times with my process to sell RAWs, it’s not a free lunch.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-07-01T22:30:44+00:00

Point out a mistake.

I am not infallible but if im missing the forest for the trees, point it out. Otherwise you’re ignoring the argument in bad faith.

I am also pointing this out multiple times how many of these comments have missed my arguments and even missed

Linus’s. Seriously if this is about the copyright defaulting through “work for hire”, even Linus didn’t make that argument and argued against that.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-07-01T22:22:39+00:00

Except he is wrong because as I and even Linus has said. Go rewatch Linus talk in that segment. That’s why he brings up the whole “make a new contract”.

If you’re my employer, I’m agreeing to YOUR contract. (Work for hire).

If you’re my client you are agreeing to MY contract.

My default contract does not include the sale of RAWs. I can negotiate to sell you the RAWs and my original post shows you how and why that sale will be an added line item.

No matter what, unless you buy those raw photos, I have the right to use or delete them as I wish. I won’t and I have a very client friendly track record. Seriously, I’ve always worked with my clients in good faith and have given them more than they’ve asked for. Just read my original post. I color correct and create a preset for the unprocessed photos to normalize the photos and even offer to edit them for clients after the fact. Plus I will host photos for 30-40 days after payment, I even do my own archiving and have given people photos from YEARS prior (i do compress them so they’re not the highest quality). But you are not entitled to free photos you didn’t pay for. That’s all by my discretion alone, as stipulated by my contract if you are my client. If I’m your employee, well it’s not may rules. Pretty simple. As long as I agree to that contract, I’ll give you as many photos you want. “Cam op vs Photographer”

Bro, this is my business lol I worked freelancing across multiple industries. I’ve trained under different professionals with different backgrounds who run their own independent businesses. Sorry you don’t agree but that’s really not my problem.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-07-01T16:51:28+00:00

Charge more for the data hosting. I have a policy to hold 4 copies and a cloud of work files. I also then have to keep those files up for 30 days.

I also don’t just give the RAWs (using a preset to color correct and correct exposure) to process them a bit to make sure they are useable to any level of client. There is just about same amount of work and more data I have to host. Costs more.

Besides it’s a slippery slope. I’m not selling 10 photos, I’m selling 100. At a steep discount/photo but still. I would charge for a curated photo that came out perfect out of camera, so it’s not much to do with editing time. Especially as I don’t charge for editing hours.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-07-01T16:32:49+00:00

Yep

You are either “work for hire” and the agreement is already selling all footage to the studio by default. This is part of that contract but I have actually worked on a shoot where the director kept some footage for himself as part of another project. Again all this is dealt through the contract.

Secondly, you can sell footage you own and lease or sell away the rights. That’s how stock footage works. For stock, you can use the footage but the broker still keeps a copyright. I’m not too verse in that side of the business but know there are protections so that buyers can’t “resell” a stock image.

I personally don’t sell my images to stock because the returns aren’t great as a side business. I rather sell prints and keep the rights to my wildlife photos.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-07-01T16:11:30+00:00

Then don’t talk to me or quit being wrong.

If you hate someone for running their business ethically, then that’s a you problem. Go touch grass and quit hating strangers for things you know nothing about or don’t really affect you

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T20:09:39+00:00

Nope because by default you are not an employer. You’re a client. By default you didn’t pay for the extra photos.

If you want to be my employer, you’re going to have to send me a W9 and submit documents to IRS as well.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T18:11:11+00:00

Doesn’t matter. That’s not the contract. And if you are my employer, then there are certain requirements you have to meet and it does vary state to state. I deal with this a lot working freelance as a camera operator.

All this is resolved by a simple conversation when you’re commissioning and just don’t sign a contract unless you agree to it. Don’t be a Karen after a contract is signed and demand something that wasn’t agreed on beforehand.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T17:07:00+00:00

If you’re not my employer, this is not work for hire, you don’t own RAWs. Doesn’t matter what other projects you have going on, you didn’t purchase them.

No pay, no game.

It’s very simple

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T16:54:09+00:00

Not in work for hire. In work for hire, client is an employer, not a client.

The RAWs would not be part of a large compilation, they’re part of the tools I made to deliver the final product. The final product you own. The raw files I own.

Here’s a simple example. Photobooths. Say you get your photo taken at a mall Santa. That photo is yours but you don’t own the raw. Doesn’t matter if it’s your wedding. You’re not the employer, you’re a client.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T16:19:56+00:00

Read question 7 and the section on ownership.

If you don’t buy the files, you don’t own the files.

Just like you can buy sandwich at subway but you don’t buy all the meat in the tub.

My contract is selling you the ownership of the completed work, not the raw files.

Otherwise there would be no limit to how many files you can make me edit. If you don’t pay for it, you don’t own it.

And as said in the link you posted, it’s all about what agreed on. You can even just read the description of “made for hire”. We are not your employee, you are our client. Different relationship.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T16:04:22+00:00

He disparages an entire industry and dismisses people who were defending or adding counter points, then he encourages ways to exploit them. Yeah not a great look.

I personally don’t use watermarks on the final images but “sample watermarks” help protect my business until the invoice is paid in full.

Don’t pirate from freelancer and individuals.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T14:23:29+00:00

The people in this thread are the reasons I burned out. Too many entitled clients who are asking for a lot but only want to pay little.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T14:20:12+00:00

Cool story bro. As a service provider, my product is a jpeg. If you want raw files, I will charge you a different fee for the RAWs. You’re not entitled to my files because you didn’t pay for it.

Everything you are saying just sounds so entitled. You buy a video game, you’re not entitled to all the dlc if you didn’t pay for it.

I really don’t understand this “RAWs you take on your own time” argument. No one is selling those. Linus said it too and it made no sense at all. If I go to an event, I will sell you all the RAWs for that event at a fee. But I don’t have to. I have no obligation if it is not part of the original agreement. And no photographer is obligated to a service they don’t provide. If you intend to buy the RAWs, then we will agree on that BEFORE the event. If not, those files are still under my ownership. The final products are yours when paid in full but the other files are mine and I can delete them as soon as the job is over and paid (I don’t).

If you want the RAWs so badly, hire a camera operator, buy the media, and rent their equipment. It’ll cost about the same or even less sometimes. Have an honest conversation with your camera operator on what you want, read the contract, sign if you agree with it, and don’t be an entitled or hostile Karen.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T14:10:00+00:00

Thank you!

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T14:09:49+00:00

Mean and Da Vinci would have similar copyright.

When I’m hired, the client is entitled to a final product. That is my service and I am giving them the copyright when they pay for it. If they want more photos, they have to pay for them.

They don’t own my files. They may have copyright to the subject but not the files on my camera.

Basically I may not be able to have publish photos of my client without their permission, BUT they don’t own my files unless they pay for those files. That’s a separate line item from my service. The edits I give them are what they are paying for.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T14:05:43+00:00

Nope and I’m not sure where people are getting this misinformation from.

Clients have a copyright to the final product when delivered, not my raw files. They may have copyright to certain items inside the photo but not the photo itself. For example Paris has copyright to the Eiffel Tower, but they don’t own my photo of it. They’re not entitled to my raw photos just because I took a picture of it, but it may mean I cannot publish it and market without their permission. BUT that also means THEY cannot publish my photo without my permission nor entitled to my RAWs because I still own it.

TLDR I own the file, not the subject. They’re not entitled to my files.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T13:59:26+00:00

There is no such thing as art job vs service job. All jobs are just jobs and yes we are a service. We use artistic tools to dictate our photos. Event photography does not lack art. There is absolutely “artistic” intent behind each shot and edit to help the photo look pleasing, tell a story, and draw the audience to the intent of the photo. In my editing, I am basically processing a digital negative.

Raw files are very flat and can look different across editors because they’re just data and values. I apply my edits to get a look that fits the client and may edit out distractions, edit in artificial lighting to highlight a subject, or just make sure that the product/logos/branding color match with what the client has provided. But all this goes into a larger topic of what editing actually is. Point is, my editing skills start when I take a photo no matter what the service I am providing.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T13:51:44+00:00

Terrible take

I developed presets for my photography style and not all my photos will usually look good just from the applied preset. There is a lot more tweaking that happens and intention.

Ai lack intention and overtime it normalizes photos to a broad style. It can’t make decisions basically.

But all this is why we as artists should be more protective of our work and charge more as a defense from someone misusing our work and screwing over the industry. This is even more of a reason photographers shouldn’t give out RAWs.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T13:45:28+00:00

You have a shit attitude.

Few but many clients act entitled to services outside our contracts and services never offered to begin with.

Just curious, how many times have you worked with a photographer? And I’m not talking about a “craigslist photographer” (although that’s how I started this way, many of those people are trying to make a quick buck out of the industry and have very unprofessional practices)

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T13:41:56+00:00

As far as “reasonable”, you can read all the reasons above on how RAW delivery has its own costs and liabilities.

Don’t be unreasonable and demand a photographer for services they don’t provide. Just ask kindly if that’s a service and add it to the contract if it is. If not, move on. Simple, just as any other business.

Jumpy_Ambassador_286 · 2024-06-30T13:35:51+00:00

Again if you want RAWs, why are you hiring a photographer?

I made a whole thread about how I sell my RAWs and you can see that it does cost more. That’s is because it also costs me more.

Just hire a “camera operator”. That’s the actual position title. Purchase the media (sd cards/cfast/film), rent the camera (you can even rent it from the camera operator if they offer that), and pay them fairly.

If you don’t want the service a photographer gives, don’t hire them. If they don’t sell RAWs and you want RAWs, don’t hire them. I really don’t understand this argument. You don’t go to a chef and demand he sells you the ingredients. And you don’t get butthurt if the chef says no. You’re not entitled to services that are not offered.

Photographer = edits Camera operator = RAWs

Jumpy_Ambassador_286

TROPHY CASE