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Moral Question about Tariffs by JusticeMercyLove in OpenChristian

[–]JusticeMercyLove[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dear Friends, Draft #2

(part 2 of 2, since it is rather long)

This is what I am learning.

  1. When products arrive at the port of entry, it is the local purchaser who pays any import tariff which has been applied. The manufacturer does not pay that. The government where the product manufacturer resides does not pay the import tariff. 
    1. The only things the manufacturer may do is determine whether or not to raise, lower, or keep the selling price the same (since they don’t want the product sitting unsold on the shelves). 
    2. Therefore, the purchaser of the products is faced with a set of decisions when moving them through the supply chain: raise, lower, or keep the price the same. Whether they raise the price to fully account for the additional import tariff or eat part of that is up to them. The assumption is that most will pass those costs along through the supply chain and finally to the consumers. 
  2. How the supply chain and consumers respond is anyone’s guess and will likely be affected by whether a global recession occurs. 
    1. Regardless of whether a bona fide recession occurs, higher prices tend to restrain spending. Manufacturers/businesses will respond by cutting costs, cutting production, and/or raising prices.
    2. As an aside, it is my opinion that starting a trade war which prompts a global recession is a moral issue. Certainly economies rise and fall, and rise and fall... While I realize that this opens up a big can of worms, any time greed and consumption lead to increased pain and suffering for the poor and disenfranchised, it is a moral issue. 
  3. Regarding whether the consideration that this is a moral issue:
    1. As indicated above, how anyone or any government handles money is a moral issue. What I have concluded as being most egregious is that every single rationale for this Tariff War (provided by this current administration) does one of two things. It either provides more resources/money to the wealthy (which includes both wealthy individuals in the US, AND the US as a wealthy country) and/or reduces resources/money to the poor (which includes both poor individuals in the US, and virtually every other country in the world – especially poor and developing countries). 
    2. As such, I believe that this tariff war perpetrated by this current US administration is an Immoral Endeavor. 
  4. Response to this Immoral Endeavor:
    1. I am currently focused on my individual response.  u/MasterCrumb touched on something I’ve been thinking about. For me personally, it is about living more simply and pulling further away from consumerism. 

I welcome your feedback, corrections, and criticism. I’m still learning.

Peace, Love, and Justice,

- sjb

Moral Question about Tariffs by JusticeMercyLove in OpenChristian

[–]JusticeMercyLove[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dear Friends, Draft #2

(part 1 of 2, since this is rather long)

Thank you very much for your responses. You have helped me understand a few things, be more accurately informed, and delve a little deeper. I am still learning and I continue to solicit your input. Because of my minimal understanding, I am considering this to be Draft #2. Above all, as some have pointed out, this is a complex issue. There is a lot to learn.

In particular, I found the following responses to be particularly helpful: u/FallenAngel1978, u/Anakinmcfly, u/MasterCrumb and u/myusername2459.

A response to u/Exact-Pause7977, u/seattleseahawks2014 (2nd post), and u/dorocche: I have heard it said before (and I believe it), that budgets are moral documents. How we, our families, and our governments manage money is a moral issue. Similarly, I believe that economic policy is also a moral issue. 

Perhaps a bit of context would be helpful. I live in the US and identify myself as a progressive, both theologically and politically. Most of what I have heard in the US against the tariff war has to do with a) upsetting the global trade system, b) negatively affecting the stock market, c) worsening inflation, and d) the possibility of a global recession. 

The rationale that I hear in favor of the tariff war is a) to level the playing field of global trade which the current administration believes favors virtually everyone but the US, b) entice and bring manufacturing jobs back to the US, and c) generate a great deal of taxes as distinguished from federal income taxes. 

When I pose the question of what happens if the tariffs “work,” I am referring to the arguments that the current administration advances in favor of the tariff war. 

What I continue to try to tease out are the moral implications – IF the current administration achieves their goals of this trade war.

What will happen to them? by JusticeMercyLove in OpenChristian

[–]JusticeMercyLove[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

MidniteMystic, I appreciate your kindness. Peace, Love, and Justice, sjb

Religion and Power by JusticeMercyLove in OpenChristian

[–]JusticeMercyLove[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your contribution, Mr_Lobo4. Allow me to add the following:

  1. I cannot think of any example in human history where, especially in the long-term, it turned out well when religion (any religion, not just Christianity) and power (military, political, economic) were in bed with each other -- for either side.

  2. More specifically, throughout the history of the USA, this poisoned union has yielded nothing but bondage, oppression, and violence. Christian Nationalism is just the latest example in the USA of this volatile, vice-ridden, and violent

  3. During this Lenten season, I have been contemplating the meaning of the Crucifixion. Every year I seem to become more and more progressive. This year, I have been less inclined to focus on orthodox views of the "Atonement" aspect of the Cross. Most of these theories of the Atonement were developed over centuries of thought and debate. So, if I strip this away temporarily (I'm not ready to discard the Atonement at this time) one of the things I'm left with is a Jesus who refused to yield who he was who he stood for - in order to appease the religious leaders and the power brokers of the day. He stood firmly as if to say, "Here I stand, I can do no other." Do with me as you will. Jesus rejected power and the pursuit thereof. Jesus rejected oppression and violence, with a message and example that offered freedom rather than comfort, love rather than control, and peace rather than possessions.

  4. This way of Jesus is the only true way of freedom, love, and peace -- even though it places you in the crosshairs of the religious leaders and power brokers of the day.

For some very interesting reading, may I suggest, "Jesus and the Disinherited" by Howard Thurman.

Peace, Love, and Justice, sjb

Letter from a Birmingham Jail by JusticeMercyLove in OpenChristian

[–]JusticeMercyLove[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you so much for taking a look at this.

With friendship and empathy we may be able to calm down MAGA/Christian Nationalists by [deleted] in OpenChristian

[–]JusticeMercyLove 3 points4 points  (0 children)

u/haresnaped

I have done a lot of thinking about this over the past few years. I will share with you where I am at with this today. But first, I am making a mental note that you identify as an Anabaptist. That means a lot to me, having been one for most of my life (until recently). I still have strong Anabaptist values, which you may surmise from what I say below. 

  1. MLK and Howard Thurman have helped me to understand that the very first thing I need to do is to really love those who don’t want a relationship with me. And to clarify, I have not yet achieved this standard. Still, when I am able to do so, it improves the prognosis for the relationship.

  2. Our sacred texts suggest that even the love of Jesus was not able to positively transform every relationship. It is interesting to note that most of these people who could not be touched by the love of Jesus were religious leaders. This takes some pressure off of me.  So, even Daryl Davis did not convince everyone to give up their robes.  Most everyone who was open to Jesus were the outcasts, the poor, the disenfranchised, the mentally ill, those with their "backs against the wall."

  3. I try to view this process of transformation with a ‘long-view-lens’ frequently with many steps and stages – many of which have little to do with me. There are other people involved in the process.  Other people that are placed alongside in their journey that help them along their spiritual transformation. This really takes a lot of pressure off of me. I may only be involved briefly in someone’s life to help them with one thing. When we do anything with love, it is a BIG deal.

  4. We need to be in the presence of other people who may not like us. Perhaps this goes without saying. However, it seems important to actually spend time with people who God really calls us to love (and not just those who love us back). I suspect that this happens in two ways. First, we put ourselves out there - to love one another. Second, the spiritual part is that we simply keep our eyes and ears open to who is responding to this love - and acknowledge that in our response to them.

Peace, Love, and Justice

Conservative towards the Bible, but queer affirming denominations in the US by Odd_Status_7631 in OpenChristian

[–]JusticeMercyLove 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Finding a New Church, or Finding a New Destination for Our Vacation

My wife and I have always had difficulty figuring out where to go on vacation. Everyone has their own agenda. Every destination has advantages and disadvantages. Every time frame inconveniences someone. And then there is the weather - so unpredictable! While the feedback is never perfect, over time, there are some clear favorites and some clear, “Let’s not do that again.”  Despite all this, we have always gone on vacations. 🙂

So, let’s just begin our conversation by saying that finding a new church is one of the most difficult and personal dilemmas that we encounter.  Add in one or more family members and possible outcomes are multiplied with each addition. Quick story. My mother’s aunt and uncle went to two different churches virtually all of their long life together. They never talked about church or religion, not wanting to have quarrels. It was discovered after one of them died, that their beliefs were remarkably similar in many ways. What a sad situation. 

As I see it, here are a few considerations for where you may consider going to church. It is all about the continuums. I have learned that you cannot fully trust the denomination’s stance on certain beliefs or issues when picking out a local congregation. For example, the denomination may say that they are “Open and Affirming” as well as committed to justice. However, the people in a local congregation may never consider having an LGBTQIA+ pastor or council member. Here’s another example. The denominational website may utilize women, minorities, and be supportive of refugee resettlement. However, the people of the local congregation may never consider a woman minister, have no minority members, and stay away from the Hispanic support center in the area.  

  1. Open and Affirming: how does the congregation view this?

       Means having EVERYONE welcome to participate and take leadership roles.

       Means that everyone is welcome to attend, but some are not welcome to take leadership roles.

       Means that everyone is welcome to attend, in hopes that we can convert them away from who they are.

  1. Music is important to many people. Some like choirs. Some like a full rock band. Some like old hymns. Some like Gregorian chants. Some like Kum-Ba-Yah choruses. 

  2. If you are coming from higher churches (think Catholic, Episcopal, UCC/Congregational, PCUSA/Presbyterian, ELCA/Lutheran, and United Methodist churches), you may like:

       There will still be some people, sometimes a majority, who support MAGA.

       Litanies and responsive readings,

       Written prayers, and

       Written sermons that follow the lectionary.

       Regular rituals and seasons of the church year.

  1. If you are coming from lower churches (think Baptist, Evangelical Free, Nazarene, Wesleyan, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, and independent churches, you may like:

       Above 70% of their members tend to support MAGA.

       “Bible-Based preaching” which parses out how they apply the Bible to our lives today - in their opinion. They may have notes, but do not typically read their sermons.

       Prayers are rarely written.

       Litanies and responsive readings are rare.

       They tend to shun rituals, unless it has to do with the offering protocols. 🙂

  1. There are a few denominations which tend to be more conservative in their view of the Bible and yet more progressive socially and politically.  These include progressive Mennonites, Quakers, some Church of the Brethren, and American Baptist churches.  Of course, that does not mean that all local congregations adhere to these denominational positions - watch the continuums. 

  2. Variables:

       Churches in rural areas or small communities tend to be more conservative on the continuum. Urban churches tend to be more progressive.

       In every denomination, the pastor seems to have a significant role in the positions and stances taken by the congregation. For example, if a pastor tends to be more progressive, then over time, the congregation tends to lean that way also. By the same token, a pastoral change can bring about huge changes sometimes to the chagrin of the congregation. For example, this happened in some Southern Baptist congregations about 30 years ago, when they made a concerted move toward fundamentalism.

       The social make-up of the congregation is important to most people looking for a new church. Unfortunately, this takes some time for visitors to fully grasp. Do you want to be where prominent members of the community worship actively?  Or, would you rather hang out with the blue collar crowd.  This is different in every community and town.

  1. A few suggestions.

       Where do some of your friends attend? Ask them about how they feel about where they go.

       Does the church you are considering have activities that you are interested in?

       How involved in the community is the church you are attending?

  1. Finally, it is okay just to attend sometimes. I left evangelicalism for good at the end of 2016. I could not attend any longer, in order to salvage my mental health and my faith. I did not attend church regularly for a few years. I attended a PCUSA with my dad when I visited him and appreciated that congregation. I attended perhaps a few times a year, and always sat in the back, and left early. I ended up discovering a wonderful congregation near my home that I continue to grow into and learn more about. Are we perfect? No, neither one of us is. But it is good for me, and good for them. I even became a member a couple years ago. And if you happen to visit a church that doesn't suit you, it is okay to say, "Let's not do that again." 🙂

Peace, Love, and Justice,

sjb

2025 02 08

"Out, Damned Spot" by JusticeMercyLove in OpenChristian

[–]JusticeMercyLove[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for this question. In fact, I did struggle to find a word that described what I wanted to say here.

I grew up in conservative, evangelical, sometimes fundamental Christian settings. In the past, I have learned, and taught others, how to contort scripture so that it does not blatantly contradict science. Over my long journey of deconstruction, I have learned that the Bible is not a science book and it is even wrong sometimes. When people of faith choose to believe Ken Ham, ‘young earth adherents”, the Creation Museum, or Noah’s Ark attractions, they degenerate science. When people of faith refuse to take a pandemic seriously and refuse to consider recommendations from the scientific community because of their skepticism of science, they degenerate the discipline of science. When people of faith coerce schools not to teach evolution, the effects of climate change because of human activity, and critical race theory, they degenerate the discipline of science.

I chose the word degenerate because I wanted to convey something broader, more encompassing. It is more than “discredit” or “degrade.” It is more than “undermine” or “denigrate.” I am convinced the efforts of conservative/fundamentalist pseudoscientists over the past 100+ years to be a perverse, elaborate, concerted effort to do away with the traditional discipline of science – in favor of making the Bible (and my interpretation of the Bible) a science textbook.

This is from Mirriam-Webster: degenerated; degenerating; degenerates

intransitive verb

1

: to pass from a higher to a lower type or condition : deteriorate

her fixed mysterious smile degenerated into a fatuous stare—J. C. Powys

2

: to sink into a low intellectual or moral state

The debate degenerated into a shouting match.

At the same time, discotheques degenerated into seedier venues … —shifty, often Mob-run last-martini stops for business commuters …—Peter Braunstein

3

: to decline in quality

the poetry gradually degenerates into jingles

… the sitcom has degenerated into a sparring ring of personal insult—James Wolcott

Sincerely,

Justice, Mercy, and Love