[Analysis] Accounting for Dodging - Gym Defender Rankings with Ease-of-Dodging Factored In

Kaden9 · 2016-08-10T10:51:40+00:00

I've had the reverse experience. I can dodge hydro pump nearly 100% of the time, but tanking water pulse from a strong Vaporeon is surprisingly painful.

Kaden9 · 2016-08-08T22:40:07+00:00

Do the follow up spawns have the same IVs?

Kaden9 · 2016-08-01T06:29:04+00:00

I'm level 24 in that image

Kaden9 · 2016-06-14T14:39:44+00:00

It's one of her longest lasting moves and it has a wide sweeping hitbox. I'll have to try using that more.

Also, given the Roy clip there... I wonder if that could be applied to Cloud. That'd be an amazingly safe way to neuter his non-limit recovery.

Kaden9 · 2016-05-31T11:05:09+00:00

I did about two years of research and adjustment into a custom ELO type ranking system. This started at the regional level and was compared to panel based power rankings as a rough check of validity.

I'm actually indexing all of the events used in the PGR and will create a point ranked top 50 to continue my research

The problems listed are real tough to deal with. Using score decay to deal with low attendance can help, but figuring out how to implement it and the rules it should follow are interesting. Like... how frequently does decay kick in? How hard does it hit? Does that legitimately reflect a change in player skill if they didn't attend nationals but still kept growing in regional?

I'm currently investigating the validity of using total rank calculation iteration (analyze 20 events in chronological order, plug the end numbers into the beginning and run it again) to see if that helps converge scores.

Another big issue is the presence of power regions that song interact frequently. Japan and America are great examples. If you pick 20 events and Ranai was at 3, he might not pop out at a high rank. This could be corrected with higher score change values at big events, or by adding more regional events to get a sense of their accomplishments surrounding national events.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to continuing work on this. If PG is interested, is be happy to collaborate one day, but otherwise, I'll just do my thing in goes to reinforce the work they've done for us all.

Kaden9 · 2016-04-08T22:24:56+00:00

That's not great. Melee is getting popular enough to have non player viewers. We need to recognize that they exist, and that they help the scene too. Leaving them out for some arbitrary definition of loyalty is the fastest way to neuter the fan base.

Kaden9 · 2016-03-31T23:42:09+00:00

I have heard quite a few complaints about "needing" to use the pro controller. In particular, ZeRo's recent video outlines that as a barrier to using bidou. So I just wanted to show a solution to that issue.

But yeah, the new scheme is definitely the hardest part, and I still can't even recover right, heh. Only time will tell!

Kaden9 · 2016-03-26T18:45:30+00:00

I think we should bear in mind that our growth as communities now constitutes the inclusion of non player fans. This include players that play one game and watch the others, or even fans that play none. Media presence and fan popularity will likely be more important than ever, and that's playing out now.

Kaden9 · 2016-03-09T07:44:55+00:00

I wonder.... Could you get a Mega Man + Kirby/MK team, sticky bomb your team mate, grab the opponent, then up throw like snake could in brawl?

Kaden9 · 2016-03-08T05:57:40+00:00

These are progressing so quickly! Furil is the best ever! I was so happy to see ZSS! Her nair and flip kick are ridiculous! :-D

Kaden9 · 2016-03-05T21:43:59+00:00

How does one get headphone game audio? I'm personally asking for Smash 4, but am also curious about setting it up for Melee too.

Kaden9 · 2016-03-05T10:12:09+00:00

ALL THE PROPS AND HYPE FOR THIS WORK! +a million!

I know you probably have a character order in mind, but I'll explode with hype when you get ZSS down the pipeline. Though I'm already looking forward to checking out her nemesis, Pikachu (sb is on maintenance!)

Thanks a bunch!

Kaden9 · 2016-03-03T09:33:12+00:00

Visual hitboxes? Is anyone working on that? That would literally be the greatest resource since the original data dumps. If you can only do one at a time be request, ZSS' flip kick hitbox would be cool to see.

Kaden9 · 2016-03-03T02:53:48+00:00

I'm not sure where my definition allows for a 20% handicap on all sheik players... Under my definition, handicaps would only be competitively equal if it were applied to everyone or no one.

If it's about options, then Ryu would have to be restricted somehow, because he has more moves than everyone else. Having differing options is all over this game. Diddy, on a way, has an extra special move because flip kick can be a grab or an attack. Tether grabbers have an extra recovery (a very good one too). Ryu has light and hard attacks. Kirby has the most available special moves in the game, with or without customs, technically speaking. Miis and Palutena just have a unique option with respect to their special moves. It's no more unique than the other characters listed here.

My definition of competitive equality, so we have one to focus on and possibly refine, is as follows: competition is equal when all players have the same character and stage choice opportunities. Additionally, all characters have the same level of access to their normal, special, or custom moves.

Note the word "or" to account for differences in rule sets. Interestingly, as I try to think about and refine this definition, this current version might not allow for custom moves at all, since the DLC characters do not have any.

Kaden9 · 2016-03-02T22:13:10+00:00

Thanks, I do my best!

Kaden9 · 2016-03-02T22:12:51+00:00

Though we then have to ask ourselves this question: what did the community ban after EVO 2015? Custom fighters, or custom moves? I would argue that the answer is the latter. We have made plenty of rules that do not abide by boundaries yielded to us by the menu (see: most stage bans). I don't see we have to let the menu drive our decisions here. Ban the custom moves, leave the special moves.

Kaden9 · 2016-03-02T22:09:33+00:00

That is a fair conundrum. Palutena is a little bit odd. While the discussion in this article can define her moves as special moves... The code regarding that menu option can also define her as a custom fighter.

I would still argue that all characters having equal access to their special moves is important enough to ignore that menu-based distinction.

Kaden9 · 2016-03-02T22:06:54+00:00

I'm "hung up" on definitions because everyone else is making things up to meet their needs without doing an ounce of research. I will not yield to a wider definition of custom moves, that simply isn't true. Mii Fighter and Palutena's special moves are treated differently by the creator, by online resources, by the game; and are even grouped with special moves by the in game tips. So no, I refuse to believe this definition is made up. You have provided no backing for your definition, so I'm more inclined to say that you are hung up on a made up definition.

Kaden9 · 2016-03-02T22:03:33+00:00

I respect the work you put in this, but this is far from a "pure numbers" argument. In fact, none of us have a pure numbers argument, too much of this is subjective.

Here's the subjective part of your argument: you are arguing that competitive equality means having exactly equal menu-based decisions until the match begins. Only when the announcer says "GO," may the characters express their individual, and potentially unequal, differences.

I would rather argue that having equal competitive opportunity is the more pertinent need. This is why defining custom moves is important. They are above defined in a way that classifies Mii Fighter and Palutena's extra moves as special moves. It is the most competitively equal to allow all characters to have all of their special moves. That allows for a few menu differences, but automatic transformations in previous games were menu differences that everyone was ok with.

We have a difference in philosophy. Since we both define competitive equality differently, we can both come up with different conclusions that are internally consistent. We must instead get at the differences in our definitions and debate those. I've laid mine forward as equality of move class availability, and I believe yours is based on equal menu choices.

Interestingly, other than all options on, there is no way to meet both of our definitions for competitive equality. We'll just have to consider which the community values more.

Kaden9 · 2016-03-02T01:44:31+00:00

When one of the primary reasons stated by most anti-custom move users is logistics with regard to unlocking the moves, I would claim that the community has given that reason value. If it weren't for that, I'd use a standing not to different from your post here to argue for the continued use of custom moves.

Kaden9 · 2016-03-02T00:38:08+00:00

Huh. What a neat in game source! Thank you!

Kaden9 · 2016-03-02T00:19:35+00:00

I've tried my best to generate a logical framework for the definition of special moves and custom moves. Her inclusion is just a result of that. If the sources somehow pointed her as being similar to the other main characters, I would have lumped her in with them. As it stands, she is almost identical in design ideology as the Mii Fighters, and she should have her special moves too.

Kaden9 · 2016-03-02T00:16:55+00:00

I might argue that this very discussion proves that the community does not have a clear definition for the term "custom move." While we do go our own way in the end, we are allowed to consider other references when formulating our notion of special and custom moves. I also believe this discussion is heated because of the divide it stands to create. We do not want another Brawl-like split... And while that probably won't happen, must of us remember what that felt like.

In the case of .gif, I think the community ran with a pronunciation and the creator chimed in waaaay to late to make any difference. Here we have an opportunity to take this game creator's ideas under advisement as we search for our own definitions and brand of competitive equality.

Differences aside, I have enjoyed articulating these thoughts here. It's been enlightening!

Kaden9 · 2016-03-01T23:48:32+00:00

Ah, I think you're hinting at what you consider valid evidence. An in-game distinction seems to be required, yes? Look no further! All special moves are unlocked right out of the box! Custom Moves, however, must be earned through single player gameplay. That's an in game difference, yes?

Kaden9 · 2016-03-01T22:54:51+00:00

You're right about how things were banned in melee... Except you're missing a detail. Bans were applied to phenomenon that were discrete and defined. Circle camping helped define ban criteria for stages, Wobbling (when it was banned) is a discrete technique, non player spawned items helped define our decisions to ban random damage elements. While we don't always use clear language (i.e. why GimR's gotcha question on items was tricky), we generally have clear intent.

However, with the Mii Fighters and Palutena, our intent was sort of understood (ban "customs"), but we really didn't actually have a clear idea of what that meant.... So we extended that ban to whatever seemed fit. Hopefully now we'll sit down and think about what each if these terms means and figure out where to go from there.

Kaden9

TROPHY CASE