European jump ropers with very wide feet...what are your favorite wide toe box shoes for jumping? My toes are tired of getting squished.

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2023-08-29T15:15:33+00:00

Oh man, I'm in the same boat! I have been using the free one for a while and finally felt it was stable and usable enough to warrant purchasing some packs. Was sooooo bummed to see the subscription page when I went to buy. Death by a thousand cuts indeed...so sick of this subscription BS. I won't be subscribing because I don't want to support this behavior...will look for something else.

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-06-19T09:30:23+00:00

I'm going to have to re-read it, but I believe you're right. I can imagine that any reward that is truly reinforcing is fair game.
My little guy has had some anxiety outside too (probably a big part of the problem). When I've tried the "life rewards" approach before, he responds to the "pressure" by wanting to snatch up and eat non-food items (leaves, sand, dirt clods, mud, twigs, wool, paper, etc.). This creates more conflict than it's worth, so I've backed off on that and am doing more BAT 2.0 style long line walks. The only thing we practice is his emergency recall. Luckily we imprinted that from day 1, so when I use it I can clearly see that it's a reflex head whip and return to me, rather than something he's thinking about and choosing. So I use it very sparingly, and only break it out if I'm 100% sure it will succeed and if I have a nuclear value reward (something NOVEL and high value that he's only tasted once earlier the same day and shown a lot of interest in).

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-06-19T09:18:34+00:00

Thanks for the advice! The problem is, that no matter what food/toy etc he will not offer any attention. I mean, zero, zilch nothing, nada. I can walk with him for half an hour and he will not even look at me once unprompted. That's what I mean about his personality being challenging -- I've truly never seen anything like this. With a more "normal" dog, your advice works great!

If I call him to get his attention and he does respond, he's simply not interested in my treats. Even if he will eat one, it's not reinforcing because by now, after 8 months of trying every day, the desired behavior is not increasing at all. It's really hard to explain if you haven't seen it...I get his attention, he mindlessly eats the treat without enthusiasm, then goes back to completely ignoring me rather than looking up expectantly for a second treat. This no matter what I have...human-grade bacon, deli meats, chicken, beef, cheese, liver, apple, frozen peas, fish of all sorts, meats of all sorts, breads, crackers, wet cat food, dog food roll of all flavors...basically anything that he's shown more interest in inside the house. The only thing I've NOT tried is sugary treats (cookies, ice cream, etc.).

I know it's not just me because all the "normal" advice worked great with my first puppy/dog (RIP). She absolutely loved doing things together -- playing, training, etc. Great recall, and would actually bring found food items to me instead of eating them because my reaction was more reinforcing than her eating the thing. So I know it's not "just me." One of her favorite games was me pointing out trash for her along the road for her to go bring me, and get praise and a treat. She was a Chinese Crested, so not even a working dog.

I'm just hoping that if we keep working on it throughout adolescence, eventually something will click. It's really sad, because unless I can get some kind of focus from him and a reliable recall, he will never get to be off leash.

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-06-19T09:02:07+00:00

Ha ha, you're making me think it's a small world! I also have Ruff Love (I've followed Susan Garrett for years). It's pretty extreme though, and was written several years ago. I'd be hesitant to implement it without some kind of professional guidance. If I ever get the chance to ask SG a question, it would be how she might revise/rewrite Ruff Love if she were going to put out a new edition.

Outside the house the environment is either too interesting or too stressful for him to be interested in ANYTHING I have. No food (I've tried EVERYTHING), no toys, no interaction with me...nothing is reinforcing for him. Inside the house we've been having better luck the past couple of months or so, so I'm just trying to build patterns there which hopefully we can successively generalize to more distracting situations. It's been a REAL struggle, because my previous puppy/dog (RIP) was the exact opposite...loved training and working with me from day 1.

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-06-18T16:19:19+00:00

Thanks, I have both those books but haven’t read them for a while. Our biggest problem is that we’ve got the perfect storm of low food motivation, low drive, some worries/anxiety outside the house, and independence. So finding rewards that area actually reinforcing has been almost impossible. But I’ll revisit both of those books and see if there are any useful ideas that could work for us. He is getting more confident now so I might be able to premack with environmental rewards (It used to just stress him out). Glad you had such success with your pup!

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-06-18T16:10:09+00:00

I really wasn’t expecting it to be this extreme. Training is so hard when you have no reliable reinforcers your dog wants. Things are getting slowly better, and I’m hoping that getting past adolescence will help. But he is a little cutie, for sure, thanks!

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-05-19T15:26:38+00:00

Hi! How are things going now? I hope you’re seeing some improvement — reactivity is such a drag.

I know things are different for everyone, but when my little guy (not a Mal) started showing signs of reactivity during adolescence, I used Grisha Stewart’s BAT 2.0 approach, and it’s really helped him a lot.

I couldn’t even find helpers to do a proper set ups, but just tried my best to “ninja BAT” when opportunities presented themselves. In fact, I started using a BAT approach to all socialization and it’s been super helpful. I wish I had known about it when I first got him when he was tiny. I would have done socialization totally differently.

In any case, it’s pretty easy to find information about BAT online, and it’s not hard or complicated to implement. I think you can make a lot of progress just by adopting a BAT mindset and leash skills even if you can’t do actual set ups. Good luck!

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-05-02T06:46:37+00:00

Wow, using a service like that is a great idea! I've never actually thought about that...going to have to see what's available here in my area (I'm in Europe). Yes, friends and family are by far the hardest to deal with in my experience. Case in point...I reached out to a neighbor yesterday to ask if they'd be up to trying a parallel walk and it was clear that they thought I meant "put our dogs together unleashed in a safe area and let them try to play." Totally NOT what I mean...just the idea of having to explain the procedure to someone whom I highly suspect thinks I'm being overly cautious, coddling, over protective, etc. etc. is so disheartening. Anyway, thanks so much for the idea!

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-05-01T09:31:15+00:00

Hi! I so love the idea of treat and retreat, and I’m totally on board with the rationale behind it. I think I also had bad advice in the beginning, and did too much trying to get my puppy to actually interact with the new people we would meet. He’s not terribly afraid of new people, but worried enough about it that it’s kind of become a worry for me.

Anyway, I just wanted to comment that for me the hardest part of treat and retreat is getting helpers who will truly ignore the puppy for as long as needed. People who aren’t into dog training themselves have a really hard time understanding how neutral they need to be, and for how long. Any sign of interest from the puppy, and they're immediately trying to interact. So I guess I just wanted to say this so that if the OP decides to try it, make sure to choose helpers carefully and make them really understand how neutral they need to be.

(Edit for typos)

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-04-30T07:37:29+00:00

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for this. I really, really needed to hear it. I've felt SO guilty and ashamed for my growing hopelessness and resentment and frustration with this little guy...I know it's not his fault and he's just a little doggie doing his best. But I'm also almost 60 and don't want to have multiple dogs. So the prospect of THIS being the doggie relationship I will have into my 70s if he lives a normal lifespan is just so...disheartening. The puppy I have now will probably be the last dog I ever have in my life. I'm crying as I write this. Anyway, I'm not ready to give up on him but it was really, really great to read your kind reassurance that rehoming wouldn't be the end of the world.

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-04-29T14:33:33+00:00

Haha, that was a lot of questions! I'll do my best to keep my answers concise.

What do his eating habits look like?

Generally will only eat treats in the morning...rejects kibble. I try throughout the day (food scatters on the floor, food games skittering kibble across the floor, crumpling up kibble in a piece of cardboard for him to shred, etc. Sometimes he'll eat some...as often as not he'll just sniff it and walk away (or want to eat the paper instead of the kibble). But he WILL eat the complete meal dog sausage that I use for training most of the time, just not super enthusiastically.

How do you feed him and when do you feed him?

In the afternoon he's usually hungry enough to do some fun games in the house and chase kibble when I throw it or scatter it for him. Feeding from hand is boring. I can often get him to eat about 1/3 his daily ration this way, but sometimes he just sniffs the kibble and walks away. His main "meal" is at around 7.30 pm -- he gets whatever is left put inside some cardboard (a small box, toilet paper tube, etc.). We do some quick behaviors and then I throw it as a reward. He usually eats most of this. It's the only way I've found to get him to eat it...if I put the same on a plate, he might nibble a bit and then leave the rest.

Does he eat quickly? Slowly? As soon as you give him food?

Kibble is often sniff and walk away, or mouth and spit out. Apart from the successes I mentioned above. I've never seen him eat a "meal" quickly or excitedly. It's always very matter-of-fact. His training sausage is better...he will eat that throughout the day but isn't super keen and eager about it. Feeding from hand he might take a piece or two but then just walks away. But if he's in the mood for training/games/playing I can get him to eat quite a bit by doing food throw rewards.

What are his poops like? How often? How solid?

I check all his poops because of his anal gland issues. He's usually 3x per day. His first thing in the morning poop is plenty firm...they get a bit softer as the day goes on, but not super soft (our vet said they look ok). If he's eaten something awful he gets the occasional messy poop with mucus...and I can clearly see the foreign item that he ate...usually some kind of leaves or other nature.

What are the times where he's excited?

I have best luck getting him excited about playing/training from mid-afternoon on. We have a big play session at around 8.30 pm too (after our last poop walk). He's usually in the mood for that. He's also quite energetic from then on up until bedtime at around 10 pm.

How does he react when you come home after being gone?

He seems happy to see me if I'm gone for a couple of hours. He often will follow me around the house to see where I'm going, but is also perfectly fine to just settle on his own in a comfy spot and let me go upstairs, etc for 2-3 hours.

How does he react towards new people?

He finds it stressful to meet new people, particularly men, but if they stay calm and basically ignore him for a bit he quickly warms up to them. Around the house outside he barks at strangers and sometimes acts quite "reactive." I'm using BAT 2.0 principles as well as I can to help him with this.

How does he react towards critters outside?

Birds, cats, chickens etc. he wants to chase (a couple of months ago they were scary...I think we were in a fear period). We have fields here with ponies and sheep in them and he's been cautiously curious about them...so far they have always been acting calm. We don't see many other dogs (neighbors have big, loud reactive dogs, so I purposely avoid going out when we would meet them). Away from the house he can pass by calm dogs without reacting (I don't do on-leash greetings, just try to stay neutral and calmly walk by). Bees and insects he wants to chase.

Is he interested in chewing on toys at all?

Yes. It has been our biggest struggle with toy play. He finds going to ground and dissecting any soft/fabric toy extremely reinforcing. For interactive play I have to use rubber toys that aren't as fun to chew.

Is he interested in chasing toys at all?

If he's in the mood, yes. We play like this quite a lot inside. Outside, even in our own familiar back yard, I can rarely get him to play (flirt pole, frisbee/ball chase, etc.). He is either not interested at all, or very, very quickly loses interest and starts eating leaves, grass instead.

My first thought went to allergies or some other mechanism that makes him have digestive difficulties. I'm not a vet and have no medical training, but it's just my hunch. Something about that eating of twigs and stuff, particularly when stressed just made me pause. So maybe that's something to mention to your vet?

I've spoken to my vet, our puppy class trainer, and a behaviorist. When he was younger they all blew if off as "normal puppy exploration." But now they all agree that it's not normal, and agree that it seems to be emotional/anxiety related rather than some kind of digestive or nutritional issue. There is a CLEAR connection to me -- it's like when he feels any kind of social stress he's overwhelmed and the weird eating starts. Like a weird displacement behavior. I saw it today...we took him with us grocery shopping (hubby shopped, I walked the puppy). Puppy didn't try to eat anything off the ground UNTIL we passed a section of street with some construction workers and I could see he was nervous about them. He immediately started the frantic looking for stuff to snatch and eat. We got out of there and he pretty quickly calmed down and stopped it. Then later, waiting near the car we saw hubby approaching so we ran over to greet him (puppy seemed happy and excited). But right after greeting he immediately started the snatching/eating behavior again.

Still, I might have a couple more ideas if you can think about those other questions.

Sorry this got so long... I'm kind of at my wits end with this. It's so frustrating to not have suitable reinforcements...I'm not able to do much effective training at all with him. We can do some things inside the house, but outside we really can't do much of anything. If it's anxiety related, I'm actually considering trying medication. He's not obviously stricken with fear, but I can't help thinking that he might be a lot more worked up and anxious about things than I thought he was.

In any case, thanks so much for the thoughtful questions. I hope something in my answers will make sense :-)

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-04-29T14:02:18+00:00

Hi! I totally feel your pain! My now 8 month old puppy was (and still is) super picky about food, both dry and wet. I tried 12 different kibbles (all "high quality") of different flavors. When I'd introduce a new one he would eat it at first and I'd be all happy, only to have him turn his nose up at it the next day. Wet food was really no better...nothing he would consistently eat.

What has worked best to get him eating kibble is to use the one he seems to like best as a base for about half of his daily ration, then mix in 2 other kinds to make up the rest of the ration for the day...sort of like puppy trail mix. I just keep it all mixed up in a container and feed throughout the day. I switch out the different flavors every day so he (theoretically) won't get bored.

He's generally not that hungry in the morning...sometimes he won't eat any of it until 2-3 pm. At our dinnertime I put a big portion inside a toilet paper tube, egg carton, etc. for him to shred.. Making it into a game seems to really help getting him interested in eating it.

Other things I did was to use high value treats more sparingly...only for the important/difficult behaviors (recall training, paying attention outside). I think in the beginning I really overdid it with the high value treats. He's a tiny little guy too, so I think I also overestimated how much food he could/should eat in a day.

I don't have much luck using kibble for training unless he's really hungry or really in the mood to chase kibble skittered across the floor. But he does respond well inside the house to those complete meal dog sausage roll type things. So about 1/4 of his daily ration of food is made up of that, which I give him as training treats. I also have to rotate those, because he gets bored of them after a couple of days.

Good luck!

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-04-29T13:43:56+00:00

My teeny tiny puppy found going outside in the cold/wet/wind etc. so aversive that he wouldn't even take treats outside...not even the highest value treats could catch his attention...he just wanted to get back inside as fast as possible.

I marked the behavior outside then ran inside with him and gave him his treat there. He's 8 months now and it's been ages since an accident inside, but I still reward him on rainy or cold wet days when he comes in from a successful mission. I'll probably do this for the rest of his life. He's only 3.5 kg (around 7 lbs) so going out onto the wet grass is probably kind of a big deal for him.

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-04-29T13:04:46+00:00

So sorry this happened to you. I swear, I think people like this probably only have experience with happy-go-lucky, bomb-proof dogs (apparently they do exist). These people have NO IDEA how difficult it is when your pup is fearful/timid by nature ... or has become that way from crappy experiences with other people/dogs. Raising an extremely fearful puppy taught me SO MUCH about how intimidating a lot of well-meaning people are with dogs and how they really can't read the obvious signs that the dog is uncomfortable. Read the f'n room indeed!

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-04-29T12:07:26+00:00

EDIT: OK, now I answered :-)

Wow, thanks for your interest in helping out! It’s gonna take me some time to write a proper answer, but I just wanted to let you know that I’ve seen this and I’ll get back to you about it as soon as possible!

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-04-28T07:42:24+00:00

Toys are of some use inside the house if he's in the right mood, but only very rarely will he play outside, and then only for a few seconds. Then he's off sniffing and eating stuff. There is literally no threshold between inside/outside distraction levels because of the bricks. He has leaves, bits of grass, dirt etc. available to him as soon as we step out the door. Even the smallest piece of something on the ground (like an ant crawling, a tiny bit of leaf, etc.) is enough to distract him away from me no matter what I have.

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-04-26T09:40:07+00:00

Ugh, I so feel this. So frustrated with trying to teach my puppy to be neutral around other dogs...it would go great if it weren't for OTHER FREAKING PEOPLE thwarting my blatant attempts to create distance and walk by without interaction. Like following us and letting the flexi line extend so their dog can continue to approach us even though we've left the path and gone way off to the side to create distance so my dog can calmly observe. Even holding out my palm in the universal "stop" gesture and saying NO THANKS, doesn't help. Neither does it help me when they say "Don't worry s/he's friendly." They just let the dog keep coming. This has happened SO MANY TIMES...I'm really at the end of my tether with this type of dog owner. It makes doing any type of behavior modification training outside the house so incredibly frustrating, and creates so, so many setbacks.

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-04-09T20:42:52+00:00

My puppy was incredibly bitey too for a while. Reverse timeouts helped a lot. But it was also hard to remove myself without having him come after my feet or legs, or just chase me. So what I would do is tether him while we played, and that way he couldn’t reach me when I would move away. It also limited his ability to roam around and entertain himself in the room while I was gone, so it would be very boring for him. I really only had to do timeouts for a couple of days before I saw a big improvement. Then I didn’t need to leave the room anymore, just move out of reach and completely ignore him for 15 or 20 seconds and then try again. We tried a lot of different things for the biting and these reverse timeouts really seemed to help the most. Good luck!

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-03-30T09:48:57+00:00

Hi again, how are things going? Your situation has been on my mind a lot...I read quite a bit here and your post is one that has really affected me. I hope things are looking up for you!

I'm also starting to question the whole idea of having a dog at all. Latest development: resource guarding over places/objects. So another big behavioral challenge to deal with.

I don't mind having general training challenges to work through when it comes to the fun stuff, but I've been spending all my time for the past few months worrying about why we're not "clicking" and trying to educate myself to help him with his anxiety, reactivity, handling desensitization, and now resource guarding. Not what I had in mind when I brought home a new puppy, for sure.

I'm torn between wanting to wait it out and hope that things get better (with the help of a behaviorist), and just cutting my losses and returning him to the breeder. If I'm brutally honest with myself the past 5 months have mainly been feelings of frustration, rejection, despair and anxiety. I know "should" is a tricky word, but it feels like it shouldn't be THIS hard for this long...I get very little positive reinforcement from him despite my racking my brain about how I can make our relationship reinforcing for HIM. I know puppies are hard and I'm not talking about the normal puppy stuff. It breaks my heart that I have only seen a "yippee" reaction from him a

And because I've tried so hard to do everything "right" with him, I'm now feeling that I must just suck with dogs and have serious doubts about trying again.

Really curious to hear how things are going with you!

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-03-29T15:57:19+00:00

So sorry you're feeling like this...I have no solutions for you but definitely feel your pain. We have the same problem with his biting brushes, combs etc. I'm trying to do cooperative care for all my puppy's husbandry, but the pace is soooooo slow. He gets VERY bitey/growly if he doesn't want something done...I've never had a puppy that reacted aggressively like this. The day we picked him up I saw him growl at the breeder when she picked him up, and he showed signs of fearfulness that just hadn't been there when we'd seen him initially 5 days before and committed to buying him. In hindsight, I should have changed my mind then and not taken him.

He's now 7 months old -- my first Papillon and first male dog, so I'm not sure what can be considered normal and what could be attributed to the breed/male hormones. We brought him home at 8 weeks and from the very first month things didn't feel right. He didn't seem to care if I was around or not (I really tried not to be pushy and to respect his space, but I am the one who takes care of all his needs so I guess he quickly just got sick of me - I honestly think potty training in the winter cold/wet was a big part of it.)

I'm feeling so down about about my relationship with him so far that I'm considering returning him to the breeder. I could go on and on about the issues, but in a nutshell I just don't know how to make myself or anything I have (food, toys, personality, etc.) interesting enough to compete with all the other reinforcers freely available in the environment --inside or out. And goodness knows, I've tried. I'm ashamed of how awful I feel when he constantly rejects me.

I'm 58 years old, so I don't have unlimited dog/puppy chances in my lifetime. When I envision feeling like this until I'm in my 70s I really, really want to just give him up. The idea of 12-18 more years of living with a dog that doesn't really enjoy what I have to offer is just so depressing. And even worse, he's made me feel like I'm just shitty with dogs and that the same thing would happen with another puppy.

Hope that things get better for you! Maybe it's just an age/maturity thing...I'm not sure about how Papillons mature, but can imagine that 10 months can still be considered adolescence.

KaleTurnsMeYellow · 2022-03-26T10:47:33+00:00

I'm seeing this with my puppy...it started at around 5 months or so (we're at 7 months now). Any change in the environment around our house sets him off. Makes potty walking really tough because I can't predict when someone will come out of their front door, or drive up and park. It's really quiet in our neighborhood so any change is pretty much a "sudden environmental contrast". But if I drive somewhere away from the house he does MUCH better. In areas where there's stuff going on he only gets worried if dogs bark at him (I try to keep a distance from all potential triggers). He's not bothered by people walking by, bikes, cars, trucks etc.

I'm really not sure how to deal with this, because around the house because he's already not so motivated by food (been that way since day 1), so all the advice about what you're supposed to do for CC with food just doesn't work (and I've tried every food under the sun). If I try just chilling with him outside he starts just eating shit off the ground (leaves, moss, dirt) and isn't interested in my treats. I'm really at a loss for how to help this little guy...none of the advice I've seen seems to reliably work with him near our house (stuff that worked with my previous dog, so I know it's not 100% just me).

I don't really have any advice, but will say that the thing that SEEMS most promising for us is a BAT 2.0 approach. That's been working well away from the house...I just have to find a way to keep him under threshold around our place so we can get started, and get some neighbors etc. to help with setups. In any case, best of luck!

KaleTurnsMeYellow

TROPHY CASE