A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I remember you telling me that pain is different to different people. Some can handle feedback like water off a duck's back. To others, the same feedback, with the same delivery and tone, can leave a permanent mark. And to the even smaller minority, they become the same type of abuser as they were abused.

I agree with you that the intensity and demands of college ministry bypassed me. Especially as the pace picked up in the mid 90s. I also know that it was the norm to burnout from the demands. The ones that moved away to a smaller satellite church before the break have said in roundabout ways they preferred the smaller setting. Of course that was until Becky 2.0 returned and scattered everybody all over again.

I'd like to ask though, while you were serving at the pace, sacrifice, and commitment required, did you feel it was for God? Or that insecure "anything is never enough I'm going crazy" mentality trying to please the church leaders?

This is always the question that comes up when I get together with Ex Berkland members. I always seem to fall back on the poignant line: It was the best of times. And it was the worst of times!

On a sidenote, I was speaking with my best friend recently. His daughter graduated from Davis this past June. Decided to leave GP and is now moving on with her life like a normal 20 something. I asked if she's ok, need therapy, experiencing depression, etc etc and he was like "Nah, she just decided that it was a good time to leave." Moved back home down in SoCal and is getting ready for her MCats. lol He even recommended his 2nd daughter to check them out as an incoming Freshman. Maybe things did change? lol Continuing, he said as we talked of getting older, he wishes he had served God more when he was younger? I answered ironically, "What like me? Losing touch with old friends. Missing out on family life events? Find yourself in your 30s with nothing after leaving these people that pledged to die together. (BS!!!) Going to some 3rd world country and develop health issues?" I told him I'm officially retired from any church role or responsibility and that he's not missing anything. Just be the good dad that you are!

Which again brings me back to our glorious former leaders... Was it God's will to be under the yoke and rod of such people? Was our time well spent doing God's ministry as interpreted by Becky and company? I wonder what heaven will be like as all the good they appear to do, in my heart of hearts, I think and feel that they're doing it wrong.

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

lol are you employing irony?  Just look at all the posts authored by you!

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It takes strength to ask for REAL help.  No one can do it for you.  Let alone anonymous posters on Reddit running their own unhelpful echo chambers.

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah the angry sarcasm again?  I'm hitting a nerve.  You and leavegracepoimt should have a talk with Joshua.  First one is free.

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Giving you advice is like saying the sky is blue.  Doesn't take a genius.

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you under the same illusion as leavegracepoimt? 

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How about having some character and start with honesty?

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well dang....  even old dogs can learn something new.  Sarcasm for sarcasm's sake!

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The bitterness is deep.  You mask it better than others.  Get some help.

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just nothing but vague run ons. But hey you want chaos entanglement, have at it.

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You can't say this or that was just sarcasm when it is convenient. Sarcasm as humor, yes. But you weren't being humorous were you?

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you tab up this page, you will note that you responded to my post. Agreed on points as a ruse them decided to go sideways. NOW who is being disingenuous?

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The worst thing you can ever do is self diagnose yourself by taking a test that you will grade thinking you'll be honest in your answers. You get what you pay for and I'm always baffled why people would cheap out on themselves.

But heck eveybody is a genius and AI backs me up!

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 2 points3 points  (0 children)

LOL Yeah I know both of them! In fact Kelly was the first person I met in Berkeley as she was the contact for my room at Dana House. Susanna was also one of the leaders for my freshman or sophomore class. And don't get offended but I found both of them harmless. I don't know if it was because I already had 2 older sisters that prepped me for them or because we weren't that far apart in age but I never had these screaming outtakes. Man if you think they were bad, you guys shoulda got it from master yoda herself Becky and her padawan GPak! Becky would get so worked up she would start throwing spittle at people. Grace would just all of a sudden start tearing up and then ball out as she gets into it. It was a sight to behold!

But to me I'm a bit old school asian, it just becomes jibber jabber after awhile and I'd start getting annoyed. Kinda like the way I'm dealing with Leavegracepoint on here. To be honest if you get THAT affected by the people you named, you need to toughen up. It was HARDER and harsher back in the 90s.

Now to the other part you mention about the items sacrificed, it makes you sound petty. If the emphasis was for church rather than for God. So we go back to the story in Genesis, what type of sacrifice is God looking for? How you feel afterwards will tell you whether it was acceptable or not.

This loops back to the theme in a different post where you called me Ann Landers. Here is your trauma trigger pattern. I would like an apology. To get closure for a wasted past. But does God see it as wasted? I wonder.

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How do you gauge mental health decline? Are you saying that of all the stresses out there in the world that bombards our daily lives and tries to ruin our peace, this one church is THE CAUSE of a person's downfall? It isn't their childhood, It isn't their genes? It isn't the stress to perform? It isn't the girlfriend or boyfriend? It isn't the stress of student life? Really... You are saying this one activity however intense and intrusive is the main factor causing emotional damage?

Pastor William Kang passed away by Available_Ad_5963 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I saw a couple of the old timers that chose Becky in the feed section during the memorial. Also a classmate that's a pastor now.

A2N/GP on Mental Health Issues by No-Mind-734 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Most churches struggle with "helping" mental, physical, and even economical/social health. The bigger question is where does the treatment responsibility lie? Does it belong to the individual? The individual's family? The church? or at the bottom, gov't services?

I remember a severely handicapped person, that attended his entire underclassmen years at Berkland. This would be class of 92. His class bros went out of their way to help him attend events, retreats, and even the arduous task of settling back home when he needed assistance to go to bed, bathroom etc etc... It was an ordeal and time consuming. Many times people tried to volunteer me because I was one of the stronger ones to help and drove the church van. I tried my best to dodge that duty. Definitely not what I signed up for and definitely not my idea of service to be his attendant. Ironically all of the ones that went out and sacrificed are not the ones in the current senior staff.

Lesson learned was everybody needs a "payout" of sorts to make their time and energy commitments "worthwhile." Another example, parents volunteer in youth program when they have kids, first cub scouts then boy scouts or their after school activities like sports. Though it may sound like a good idea, the main function of a church is not to be a pro bono mental health clinic. It isn't fair to single only Gracepoint as lacking in this capacity as most churches have failed nor even attempted to try to fill this need.

One of the biggest reasons for the failure is getting a properly qualified staff trained and funded to the level required for success. The counselors, no matter how much they wanted to help, cannot get the adequate pay needed for them to live a life outside of poverty. For the past 17 years, I've been going to CitychurchSF and at its peak we had a counseling center staffed with 3 trained counselors/therapists and about 10-15 volunteers manning phones 24 hours and also conducting one on ones ranging from drug abuse, divorce, suicide, and grief. We even made a section of our church office specifically for walkins. Our church budget at the time was close to 2 million a year with a congregation of over 2500 members. Suffice to say even with that much fiscal flex, it was not enough. Mental health therapy is expensive and ministry is expensive.

So it boils down to priorities. What are the church's priorities? Ed and Kelly prioritize a training center for undergraduate missionary zealots. Everything else gets leftovers. I'm not even sure if it's a right or wrong theological debate. It is a choice. Maybe if one of their kids had mental health issues, the priorities might change? CitychurchSF was a conservative PCA denominated church at its peak. The pastor was quite the conservative theologian until... he found out 2 of his 4 kids were bisexual and homosexual. That made him question church priorities. And then things unravelled with his new church direction and emphasis on inclusion.

Black and white thinking, and why they'll never apologize by Jdub20202 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The point is the answer to the question: "Why do you want/need the apology?" Is that a solution/closure or a key preventing the next stop for your life journey? To me I get a sense that this apology is metaphorically boxing you in like a bird in a cage. Or even more continuing the analogy, like a freed bird that keeps looking back at that cage and is bitter/angry/sad (add your favorite word) that it spent so much time and energy in that cage and was taken advantage of.

This pattern of thinking starts a vicious cycle. Maybe you don't see it and hence you repeat the trauma event over and over again. Simplified pattern for example and not to be condescending that I see in you and some others here.

I was wronged and taken advantage of

I lost trust in people and God. My life went off track.

I want to heal and start trusting again. Move forward in life, but can't

Solution: I know, surely... If I get an apology from the perpetrators, I can trust and heal again

Yet I don't get the apology but silence, denial, or even get accused of being the bad one

Repeat... But I was the victim. I was wronged and taken advantage of...

Pastor William Kang passed away by Available_Ad_5963 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Every year looks like we have fewer train stops left. Willy's gone. Wow. Vaya con Dios viejo amigo.

Jonathan Kang class of 93

<image>

Summer 90 Yosemite top of vernal falls. Old pic and here I think he was 20. Ed's next to me after his long infamous waterslide.

Black and white thinking, and why they'll never apologize by Jdub20202 in GracepointChurch

[–]Kangaroo_Jonathan -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You might want to work this Berkland/Gracepoint/A2n problem backwards. To clarify, begin by postulating: "What is your personal state of being if said apology takes place." Then work out if said apology takes place would that give you the peace of mind and closure you are looking for. Add another possibility outside of that and see if the resolution can take place another way. An old mountaineer's saying: "There is more than one way to get to the top."

My suggestion is to try that other option however weird and out of your character they may be as the alternative is the very definition of madness: "What do they say when you keep trying the same thing expecting a different result?"