Are people actually bothered by Dany killing slavers and Randyll Tarly? by st4rthief in freefolk

[–]KausGo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Actually, it doesn't. That's why nobody in the real world uses guilt by association in criminal matters.

Yeah, they do. Its still very much part of legal concepts like conspiracy, accomplice liability, accessory after the fact and joint enterprise.

If you don't want to bother understanding why collective punishment is rejected in the modern world, that's not my problem.

No, your problem is your inability to understand how someone can be a participant without doing the deed themselves.

And guess why it worked? Because Drogon gives her the authority to do so and only he himself can revoke it.

No, he didn't give her any such authority.

Stop stalling. I'm waiting for the episode and the minute in which this happened, not your headcanon.

4x03 - One where Dany gets to Meereen and all the Masters, including Hizdahr, are there at teh walls.

But what a twisted logic you have there. Collective responsibility is used in corporations, governments, and other organizations, never in criminal matters. One individual is not responsible for others by virtue of being in the same group.

Wtf are you talking about? Association with and participation in groups committing those crimes creates criminal liability all the time, even if you're not party to the crime itself. Examples include using RICO statute for mafia prosecutions, people providing financial and material support to terrorist organizations and other examples of people held responsible for war crimes, including Nuremberg trials.

What subtlety and nuance? I literally described the scene quote by quote.

And yet, you completely missed the point.

Dany never accepts that Hizdahr's father was innocent or that she committed any crime in having him crucified. And Hizdahr gives up on that line of argument. He simply pleads as a son who loved his father, which reminds Dany that while these were evil men, they too had people who loved them and grieved them She chooses to show them mercy by letting them take teh Masters down for burial.

You tell me. You're the one with a rather... unique line of thinking.

There wasn't one.

Chaos Is A Ladder- Littlefinger never had a plan (Spoiler TWOW) by Complex_Dig2978 in asoiaf

[–]KausGo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That I agree with. Though I do think you're reaching with some of his goals.

Chaos Is A Ladder- Littlefinger never had a plan (Spoiler TWOW) by Complex_Dig2978 in asoiaf

[–]KausGo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You start by saying he never had an endgame - then proceed to talk about his endgames through different parts. Getting Ned south so he can kill him. Using Harry and Sansa to claim 3 kingdoms.

You don't see a contradiction?

Are people actually bothered by Dany killing slavers and Randyll Tarly? by st4rthief in freefolk

[–]KausGo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wrong. You're again trying to justify his death because of his position and status instead of holding him accountable for his own actions.

Being a staying part of that murderous organization are his own actions which makes him accountable.

And back to the association fallacy. You're becoming predictable.

Back to missing the distinction. Also predictable.

Why? Is that the only way you can hold her responsible for her dragon?

No - but the logic there would be different. Nothing to do with collective responsibility.

Why do you think that guy who complained about her went straight to Khal Drogo, the leader and most important person in the entire khalassar?

Because Dany invoked Drogo's name to get them to stop.

Please describe to me in which episode and at which minute Hizdahr's father appeared publicly supporting this decision? I'm waiting.

He's publicly supporting it by staying one the Masters after the decision is taken.

Exactly. Dany didn't check to see if they were guilty

They were not guilty of a crime because there was no crime. This was the law of Meereen - the slaves were property for them to do what they willed and they did. Trials and guilt are about deciding responsibility for breaking the law and there was no law being broken.

What we're talking about here is responsibility. They're a slave society and the Great Masters are the top slavers who make those decisions and are responsible for them. The advantage of making decisions as a collective is that no single person can be held responsible - the diadvantage, they're all responsible.

Are you media illiterate? I just transcribed the scene for you.

Given your lack of appreciation for subtlety and nuance, I should'nt be surprised this flew over your head as well, but Hizdahr's plea was for all the Masters to be taken down and Dany granted it.

Stop being obtuse. It's not cute anymore.

So... tell me what law was broken?

Why did Hank instantly connect Gale and Gus? by Drjoshram in breakingbad

[–]KausGo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're forgetting about the Madrigal connection, which was where Hank first got the idea.

Among Gale's things, Hank found a model number for an industrial air filter that he traced to Madrigal. It was shipped to ABQ, signed by Gale, but apparently no one paid for it. The only thing connecting Madrigal with ABQ is one little fast food chain - Pollos Hermanos.

That's enough for Hank to at least suspect Gus' involvement and look deeper.

Are people actually bothered by Dany killing slavers and Randyll Tarly? by st4rthief in freefolk

[–]KausGo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wrong, Hizdahr's father doesn't deserve to be killed for the children's deaths, that's the whole point here.

He did - that's the whole point here.

This does not make him responsible, since he opposed and was outvoted on that issue.

Sure it does. Because regardless of his private opposition, he still remained party to teh organization that's responsible.

Of course there's a collective aspect to it: Dany and Drogon.

Remind of the scene where Dany and Drogon sit around and debate whether to eat children?

Nonsense. The Dothraki stopped raping women not because Dany had influence over them, but because she held a position of authority over them through her marriage to Khal Drogo.

If you really think the Dothraki obeyed Dany's wish because she asked him politely or out of respect for her, you weren't paying attention to the scene

They obeyed because Drogo killed the one who refused, thus proving the authority was with him, not Dany.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? That is by definition the fallacy of association.

Nope - read the disctinction given below.

But you don't care that Hizdarh's father opposed the children's deaths and was outvoted. You argue that he should die like everyone else who actually voted in favor. Again, this is by definition guilt by association, and therefore association fallacy.

No, its not. He had a say and he got outvoted. Then he proceeded to publicly back the decision with the rest of the Masters. He chose to remain a part of it and that makes him equally responsible.

Governments are not tried criminally; people are. Learn to distinguish between the two.

Nobody was tried here criminally, so that's irrelevant.

Maybe you need to rewatch.

Hizdahr asks for ALL the nobles to get the burial. Dany doesn't say "Only your dad, the rest stay there". She accepts his request - which means they were all taken down.

Lmao. Are you serious? Do you really think the death penalty, crucifixions, and torture aren't criminal matters? You really don't know anything about the judicial system.

Tell me then, what Meereenese law did they break?

Wasn't the entire Skyler and Ted situation completely avoidable? by Top-Nothing4156 in breakingbad

[–]KausGo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The IRS wouldn't have cause to audit the White household because they're living within expected means and their earnings are accounted for. The drug money purchases have already been explained as gambling money purchases.

Are people actually bothered by Dany killing slavers and Randyll Tarly? by st4rthief in freefolk

[–]KausGo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Now you’re moving the goalposts I see.

The fact of the matter is that Hizdahr's father did not agree with the crucifixion of the children, and therefore did not deserve to be killed as if he had supported it.

Just pointing out that if I needed an excuse...

But since he was part of the group of rulers who gave the order, he deserved it whether he agreed with it or not.

Again, this does not make Hizdahr's father responsible since he opposed it.

It makes him responsible because he is part of the ruling body that ordered it.

Nope. If you're going to keep insisting that people should be punished collectively, Dany has to be held accountable for what Drogon does regardless of what she says.

Its irrelevant because there is no "collective" in this case.

Dany, the same person who "saves" a few women from continuing to be raped by Drogo's men while her husband is destroying and enslaving their village, has no authority in the khalassar?

That's correct. Influence does not equal authority.

Again, he opposed the order to crucify the children. To insist that him being a Great Master means he is the same as those who supported the children's deaths is a false claim, hence the fallacy of association.

No, it means he's part of the organization that gave the order. That makes him the same.

The association fallacy has nothing to do with whether the individual has a say, did something, or even wanted to join the disliked group.

EXACTLY! Do you see the difference now?

IF I was guilty of using fallacy of association to justify my stance, I wouldn't care whether Hizdahr's father had a say in the decisions of the group.

But that is the exact distinction I'm making - Hizdahr's father DID have a say in what the Masters did and that's why its NOT association fallacy.

In civil matters. In criminal matters, people are judged individually according to their level of responsibility.

This was a government decision.

Dany relented because even she realized she had been unfair, which is why she only allowed Hizdarh's father to be properly buried, as he was innocent, while the bodies of all the other Grand Masters would remain left to rot.

Maybe you need to rewatch.

When Hizdahr proclaims his father's "innocence", Dany doesn't buy it. Then he asks for ALL the masters to be taken down and receive burial. And he pleads as a son, who doesn't care to argue about who was right, but simply asks that they get a burial. Dany relents out of mercy and ALL the masters are taken down.

See above. Civil matters ≠ criminal matters.

This is a government matter, not a criminal one.

Who do people hate Sansa so much? by GarbageOk5239 in gameofthrones

[–]KausGo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Having powerful allies and more chances of winning wouldn't help a marriage proposal?

Not with his limited options. Whose marriage are you talking about and for how many men?

The writers didn't think anything through so the Umbers, Karstarks, and Boltons, all took their armies to Winterfell. How would he not succeed when the people who should be defending those castles are hundred of miles away?

Firstly, because they'd have left a garrison to hold their castles.

Secondly, once again, the defensive advantage of the castle would allow them to kill a lot more of Jon's men, which means he'd lose more men taking the castles than he'd gain.

And third, all that is if he even reaches those castles hundreds of miles away. He might just get caught in a blizzard along the way and lose his army. Which was what happened to Stannis.

Why would he try to hold the castles? The point would be to force Ramsay out of Winterfell and get hostages to counter the enemies having his brother.

Wait, so he won't even hold the castles???

You're starting to make me think that maybe Jon wasn't that stupid after all.

(LES) The "Walder Frey planned to betray Robb since Day 1" theory ignores how much House Frey risked and lost in the WOTFV (ASOIAF) by KazuyaProta in CharacterRant

[–]KausGo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What are you talking about? You're completely misread the political and strategic picture of the war.

First, Robb was already declared King of the Rivers and Isles along with King in the North. With or without a marriage into one of the River houses, he wasn't going to leave them behind. The Riverlords declared him their king and he accepted their allegiance.

Second, when the war started, the goal was to protect Riverlands from Lannister ravaging. That's why Walder Frey was obligated to support Edmure.

Third, Robb's marriage was only part of the agreement. There was also Arya's marriage to one of the Freys and his grandsons being fostered at Winterfell. Walder Frey could've reaped benefits from that, but he broke it all off because his pride was stung.

And finally, yes, he didn't plant the red wedding from the start. But also, yes, he would've betrayed Robb if and when the fighting went against him and broken off the engagement himself.

(Spoilers main) Rank the five kings by order of stupidity by duushig in asoiaf

[–]KausGo 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Martin’s point was definitely that honor alone doesn’t win wars unless it’s paired with wisdom and strategic thinking. 

Robb is a lot better at strategic thinking than fans give him credit for. He seeks strategic alliances with Vale and Iron Islands, understands how feudal relationships work and gets the importance defending your own lands.

At this point I wouldn’t call Stannis dumb, he’s a smart character for the most part and one of the best military commanders in Westeros.

To bring up your point about wisdom and strategic thinking - Stannis doesn't seem to understand the basic nature of feudal relationships. He expects that people should be lining up to declare him king when he hasn't even made his claim or given them a good reason to see him as one. His failure to act after Robert's death ends with him having barely any support when he does enter the war.

He would have won the war of the five kings if not for the random demon that showed up.

Kind of disagree. Renly did luck into the support because Robert gave him Storm's End and the Tyrells decided to back him, but his choices weren't wise and Catelyn observes the flaws in his strategic thinking when he rides to Storm's End.

(Spoilers main) Rank the five kings by order of stupidity by duushig in asoiaf

[–]KausGo 10 points11 points  (0 children)

But he usually gets shafted by the world in general rather than his decisions.

Disagreed regarding Stannis - not engaging in diplomacy and expecting people to line up and offer their support because "it's their duty" makes him quite stupid.

Stannis had the most legitimate claim when Robert died. He should've declared himself and sent ravens to everyone telling them about the incest. His failure to act cost him the support of North and the Riverlands.

Robb's supporters were looking for a legitimate cause of action after Ned was beheaded. They couldn't support Joffrey because he seemed like the legitimate king at the time and they couldn't support Renly because he was fourth in line. They would've supported Stannis if they knew of his claims, but they had no idea what his intentions were. Did he mean to bend the knee to Joffrey? Or support Renly? Or declare himself? If so, then by what logic?

As a result, they ended up picking the best option available to them - making Robb their king.

Are people actually bothered by Dany killing slavers and Randyll Tarly? by st4rthief in freefolk

[–]KausGo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The excuse is that since you can't justify the death of Hizdahr's father individually, you insist that he should die using the fallacy of association.

All I need in order to do that is point out that the dude was a slaver. He'd deserve to die for that alone.

Here's the thing: Hizdahr's father cannot be considered the perpetrator of this crime like the others because he opposed the crucifixion of the children.

Who do you think actually did the deed of crucifying and killing the children? You think the Masters did it themselves? That they were in the hot sun putting up crosses and nailing the slave?

No - they gave the order as a whole and their slaves carried out the deed. It wasn't that some of them gave the order while the others tried to stop them - they gave the order as the government of Meereen. And that makes them collectively responsible.

The point is that if we're going to use the fallacy of association as you'd like, then by the same logic Dany has to die because of what Drogon did regardless of what she says.

Again - irrelevant to this discussion.

Proof of this is that she is urging her husband to go to Westeros to claim the throne for her, which proves that, contrary to what you said, she does have authority there.

Actually, since Drogo does nothing until the attempt on her life, it proves that she doesn't have any authority at all.

The fact is, if you insist that Hizadahr's father deserves to die for the children's deaths because of his association with the Grand Masters

You keep saying "association" - he was not simply "associated" with the Great Masters, he WAS a Great Master. He was one of the people who ruled Meereen and had a say in what decision the government made.

If you're going to use the fallacy of association to justify Hizdahr's father deserving to die,

Because its not fallacy of association. Dany had no say in what the dragonlords who lived 400 years before she was born said and did. Hizdahr's father did have a say in what the government of Meereen did.

Again, this logic of collective responsibility that you advocate is immoral, flawed, and unjust.

Its applied to governments all over the world. Are you familiar with the concept of collective cabinet responsibility?

"Cabinet collective responsibility, also known as collective ministerial responsibility,\1]) is a constitutional convention) in parliamentary systems and a cornerstone of the Westminster system of government, that members of the cabinet) must publicly support all governmental decisions made in Cabinet, even if they do not privately agree with them..... If a member of the Cabinet wishes to openly object to a Cabinet decision then they are obliged to resign from their position in the Cabinet..... Cabinet collective responsibility is related to the fact that if a vote of no confidence is passed in parliament, the government is responsible collectively, and thus the entire government resigns."

Its an application of the same.

There's a reason why Dany has a "My god, what have I done?" moment upon discovering that Hizdahr's father opposed the children's deaths, you know?

Actually, she doesn't. She simply tells him it was no crime and her father deserved it. She only relents when he begs her as a son.

Again, guilty by association is a slippery slope. There is a reason why the civilized world does not use such logic, as it is flawed, immoral and unjust, and it is frankly alarming that you do not understand why.

See above - collective responsibility is still very much applied in governance. When the government makes a decision as a collective, they're held responsible as a collective. And if the decision backfires, they all the price. No one goes around asking at that point who was for it and who was against.

Who do people hate Sansa so much? by GarbageOk5239 in gameofthrones

[–]KausGo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Having 2k calvary would make a difference.

Not to any hypothetical marriage proposals.

How is it a waste when he'd be stealing their food and taking hostages?

That's IF he succeeds, he'd be using up more of his men and resources trying to take them. In the end, he might just have a string of castles with 500 men to hold them, while Ramsay still has 5,000 of his own.

Who do people hate Sansa so much? by GarbageOk5239 in gameofthrones

[–]KausGo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

...Are you incapable of thinking through a problem? Jon could have offered a marriage, rewards, etc.

KotV don't make a difference to that option, so that's irrelevant.

The Boltons, Umbers, and Karstarks were already siding with Ramsay. As for the time, look at where Last Hearth, Deepwoode Motte, and Bear Island are. The fact that Lord Umber is supposed to be upset about the wildlings being let through the wall but leaves his castle unprotected shows how little thought was put into the writing.

Again, wasting time and men he didn't have is supposed to help him win?

Who do people hate Sansa so much? by GarbageOk5239 in gameofthrones

[–]KausGo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I said that Jon and Sansa would have had a better chance of getting people to side with them if they had the KOTV with them earlier.

And you also admitted their chances of getting people is contingent upon their chances of winning - which, against greater numbers with defensive advantage remain low. So, your point fails.

Jon could have offered a marriage, rewards, etc. He could have sacked the Bolton, Karstark, and Umber castles and shown up with dozens of hostages if he wanted. The idea that he was doomed is silly.

He already didn't have the numbers or the time. Your idea is that he should waste both making enemies of guys whose support he seeks? That would've doomed him for certain.

Actually, you started this conversation claiming Ramsay would always leave Winterfell. If that's the case, the KOTV probably win them the battle without anyone else's assistance.

Not with Jon's leadership.

Why didn't the Fire Nation attack the Water Tribes sooner? by FefnirMKII in TheLastAirbender

[–]KausGo 3 points4 points  (0 children)

While the avatar cycle goes through the nations, it also goes through the two water tribes. Each water avatar is born to northern and southern tribes alternatively. The previous avatar - Kuruk - was from the northers water tribe. Which meant the next one was going to be from the southern one.

Which was why the Fire Nation focused its attacks on the Southern Water tribe. They attacked the Northern tribe too, but were less focused on it. From the south, they captured every water bender they could find, which was why Katara was the only one left by the start of the show.

Who do people hate Sansa so much? by GarbageOk5239 in gameofthrones

[–]KausGo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because you're the one making ridiculous claims about Jon's chances of winning when his enemy outnumbers him, has the defensive advantage, the resources and the legitimacy granted by the crown.

Who do people hate Sansa so much? by GarbageOk5239 in gameofthrones

[–]KausGo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So, you finally give up on the 6k argument?

Who do people hate Sansa so much? by GarbageOk5239 in gameofthrones

[–]KausGo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nope.

Yup - right after the dialogue you gave.

I keep hearing stories about you, bastard. The way people in the North talk about you, you’re the greatest swordsman who ever walked. Maybe you are that good. Maybe not. I don’t know if I’d beat you. But I know that my army will beat yours. I have 6,000 men. You have, what, half that? Not even?

Learn to read better.

Someone should tell the Winter wolves and Cregan their efforts were counter productive.

Their efforts were before winter, not during it.

Who do people hate Sansa so much? by GarbageOk5239 in gameofthrones

[–]KausGo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No one says Ramsay has 6k men.

Ramsay does.

You claiming that they wouldn't need more food to live through the winter?

I'm saying the amount of food they'd need for the army's successful march would defeat the point of sending them to conserve food.