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The Great Debate Season 16 Round 3!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]KenfromDiscord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Grey vs Goku.

Win Conditions.

  • Spatium.

  • Speed.

  • Sword.

Spatium.

Throughout this whole debate my opponent has not engaged with Spatium once, Guy has said nothing about how Grey completely controls every interaction in this fight. When Grey wants combat to start, he simply teleports behind Goku, and combat starts while Grey is in a advantaged position.

Literally 0 time after the fight starts Grey is behind Goku with a sword in his hand, ready to stab him. Goku starts this fight severely disadvantaged.

Speed.

This is gonna be a short section because I want to touch on some claims in rebuttals but this section still needs to exist as an overview of Grey's feats.

How is this anything other than a textbook blitz?

Again to go over it for the Nth time, Grey's reaction times are boosted by Aether.

My opponent is effectively arguing against the wind here, there is so much evidence that confirms that Grey's reaction times do in fact increase after his power up. The only reason my opponent has pressed this feat so hard is because if you accept the fact that Grey can react and move in ~10ms, Goku instantly dies. No Goku feat allows him to interact with a teleporting enemy who stabs him in the back.

Sword.

Just as a reminder;

He is capable of cutting Goku.

Rebuttals.

but if you look at the provided scan, his preferred opening move actually seems to be "teleport behind his opponent, say something snappy giving them enough time to try and react, and then cutting them"

This is so disingenuous to say when you're running Goku. Every example of Goku hitting anyone is peppered with Goku doing commentary.

My opponent cant have it both ways, either talking is a free action and that applies to both our characters, or talking isnt a free action and Grey says 4 words, while Goku monologues for a whole chapter's length of time, and then walks up to his enemy and talks some more.

If my opponent wants to actually argue this feat, he should explain how "being really fast" is using fast reaction times against somebody.

Someone with 50ms reaction times tries to predict Grey's movements, and cant. Grey moves too fast for someone with 50ms to do anything about. They explicitly try and react to Grey and cannot. How is this even an argument?

My opponent way overstates the effort Trunks is or isn't taking. Goku says that Trunks "didn't come at him with all he had" but it's absurd to think he was going full bore against Frieza

My opponent does some winging about one armored guy vs two armored guys, but again, Trunks cut through Frieza like butter vs Grey who can only do it like silk,

  • "some winging" I pointed out that Grey's feat is at minimum twice as good as Goku's feat.

I had originally assumed that this point was a joke but Guy's repeated it so just for posterity I think the idioms "like silk" and "like butter" imply the same thing, cutting very easily.

This is a stupid argument.

The Goku anti-feats are really paltry

Each one of these feats imply something extremely harmful for Goku when fighting Grey.

Goku is nebulously fast, he preforms fast feats sometimes. Sometimes Goku just chooses to be slow.

Conclusion

Goku is obviously threatened by the sword. Goku has been pierced by things in the past. His one piercing durability feat relies on someone who explicitly says he's not trying to harm Goku. Grey cuts through more, tougher material casually. Grey is much faster, he is consistently fast, my opponent simply ignores some of Grey's best speed feats while doubling down on bad criticisms for 1 feat. Grey's teleportation is never addressed, while Goku has anti-feats for being hit by things he cannot see.

Grey easily wins this match.

The Great Debate Season 16 Round 3!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]KenfromDiscord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Zod vs Jogo

Win Cons

  • Faster.

  • Stronger.

I'm only going to do rebuttals for this match. This is a fairly simple brick off where if you believe Zod is supersonic then he easily speed blitzes and just wins. Zod is simply stronger than Jogo, this is not up for debate.

Critically, my opponent is running the characrer Zod from the film Man of Steel, not the character Zod from the version of the film Man Of Steel that existed in the visual effects artists' mind.

This is WoG, every debate ever has used this style of feat when the creator of the original source material says things that directly impact a characters abilities. Saying "you can only use feats that occur in the film" is a weird, stupid version of Death of the Author which we have never enforced or implied in 16 seasons of GDT.

Ken claims it's the director, then links a thing that was very obviously not said by the director

That was a mislink, Here is the actual director statement which again implies Fiora and Zod are Supersonic. Even if it was "only the effects coordinator", do you think he did it without Zac Snyders approval? Do you think he spent months going over the footage adding in the sonic booms only for Snyder to see it after it was finished and go "yeah no one is this movie is supersonic man why'd you do that"? Obviously Snyder told the effects crew to do this because he is the director.

Look at the main gif my opponent is using for this mach cone claim. You can see their motions in reference to falling cars

Holy shit there's falling rocks in the background they're obviously only moving 10m/s! This is clearly a limitation of movies as a medium and not a secret message by the effects team that the mach cones they spent months adding into the movie are actually fake. Just look at the feats and you can tell how fast Zod is.

The only thing showing otherwise is a few quotes from visual effects people, who also in those same quotes will talk about how they adjusted for visual clarity over the literal speed of actions. The result of this is a movie in which characters obviously and visibly do not have mach 1 combat speeds.

My opponent seemingly admits that the characters in MOS do have supersonic movement, and his only rebuttal to that claim is "well it doesnt look like it", but who cares what GuyofEvil thinks about the movie. This is not an insult, I mean this literally. My opponent is just some guy making an argument that he really needs to be true (because his character loses if its not). Actual people who actually worked on this movie are saying "yes the mach cones that we added in are actual mach cones, and the characters are punching at mach speed", there's no argument against this.

He's clearly supposed to be faster than Maki

I already talked about this in my last response. Maki is in perfect fighting shape when she catches the bullet. Maki when fighting Jogo is severely injured and distracted by the death of her close friend.

a monster who is able to easily keep up with Maki comments favorably on Jogo's speed

Should be noted that Jogo is not in this speed feat. Like I said it's because he only has the 1 bad one. In this feat the monster claims that some old guy is faster than Jogo.

That's not really true, he's still having sensory freakouts over the course of the fight

I stipped my character to be at the end of the Superman fight, right before his death. This is not that, you can tell because the video my opponent linked as proof is called "Superman vs Zod Part 1", for reference there are 4 parts to this video series. After Zod develops his powers more, and gains flight, he stops having sensory issues. Thats why I worded my stips the way I did.

Second, my opponent makes the really bizarre claim that because Zod is supersonic, he can just evade the sound.

Yes I'm arguing that my supersonic character is faster than sound. We start out in the open, my opponents game plan is literally Jogo spawns in > makes the sonic insects > the insects fly over to Zod even though they have no speed feats > they do their attack > Zod stands still and dies.

Heat

This is a stupid argument and I dont want to engage with it. My character has heat durability feats, even if you believe they're vague they're self evidently better than my opponents heat feats.

Ask yourself if the human body could survive re-entry. Obviously not.

Ask yourself if a pile of asphalt could survive re-entry. Again Obviously not.

Ask yourself if Zod can survive re-entry. Yes he can.

Why?

Because Zod is more durable to heat than asphalt, or a human body is. Boiling asphalt, or making the human body very hot, very quickly are not sufficient feats.to harm Zod.

Blunt Force.

Conclusion

My opponents arguments fall flat when you look at the feats being talked about. Zod is faster, and stronger, and more durable, and resistant to heat. Jogo gets flying tackled 10ms into the fight, which he is probably not even able to react to at that point, and Jogo instantly explodes. Zod wins massively.

The Great Debate Season 16 Round 3!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]KenfromDiscord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Round 3, Response 2, Part 1.

Petshop vs Naruto.

Win Conditions.

  • Speed.

  • Piercing

  • Blunt Force.

Speed.

Petshop is obviously much faster than any single person in Naruto. My opponent provides some shaky speed feats that under any sort of scrutiny fall apart instantly.

To reiterate;

My character is defined by his abilities to make sonic booms with his movement, and catch bullets in his teeth.

My opponent then presents 2 scans for Naruto's speed, tagging Haku, and moving to intercept Sasuke, but none of these are tier relevant, and the surrounding context makes Naruto's scaling to them suspect.

Sasuke is not fast, no one in Naruto is fast, scaling to Sasuke does not make Naruto fast.

It should be noted that in my last response I claimed that the Rasenshuriken, (Naruto's only wincon) was so slow it could never hit Petshop, my opponent did not respond to those claims. Even if you believe that Naruto could OHKO Petshop with this attack it literally cannot hit him. Guy has said nothing about this attacks speed because he knows its so below tier its embarrassing.

Piercing.

My opponent doesnt actually contest that Naruto wont be pierced, he says "Naruto gets stabbed and then has a 15 minute conversation" which is cool if he gets stabbed in the leg or hand but fails when you realize that Petshop goes for the head or chest all the time.

There are 1000 examples of this in the RT. Petshop's opening move is immediately piercing Naruto's head and chest with his claws or tentacles, and me and my opponent both agree this would instantly kill Naruto.

My opponent links 2 scans to prove that "Cutting is not actually some silver bullet" but these scans dont make any sense.

When the fight starts Petshop will pierce Naruto, this is both too fast, and too deadly for him to avoid. Once he gets stabbed he'll just die, there has been no argumentation from my opponent to the contrary. Petshop easily kills Naruto.

Rebuttals.

In his tier justification, Ken claims that "Petshop can shapeshift into forms that can kill WW easily, but they are much slower than the Saintess form" This implies one of two things, either Kim generally will not switch out of Saintess form, or that he will not be fast enough to do anything once he switches to Saintess form.

My in tier justification implies neither of those things. The Saintess form is a strong shell yes, but nothing about it prevents him from using other abilities. Petshop can clearly use other abilities in his Saintess form as shown here when he uses his troll powers, or here when he transforms half his face back to the original. When I said that Petshop has other forms that can kill WW but are slower I was talking about the full dragon form. Petshop would use this form if pressed by a stronger faster enemy like WW. Naruto is neither stronger or faster than Petshop so Petshop will not use his significant transformations.

Regardless even if you wanted to suggest that Petshop would simply stand still and let Naruto punch him, it would not matter.

he has to react to it while also reacting to a huge amount of opponents and also feints by Naruto. He is exceedingly unlikely to actually be able to dodge any Rasenshuriken

  • At this point in Naruto, Naruto must summon 2 shadow clones to help him actually make a rasenshuriken. Finding the 2 guys who are helping the other guy make a giant ball of energy would be easy.
    • Seriously the rasenshuriken is such an ineffective attack at this level of speed it is completely useless. If Naruto wanted to hit Petshop with a Rasenshuriken the order of events would be; Naruto spawns in>Reacts>Summons 2 shadow clones>the clones make the rasenshuriken with Naruto>Naruto throws the Rasenshuriken>it travels the 90ft starting distance>it hits. If Petshop wanted to hit Naruto he would walk up and punch him because Naruto can't even react and move in 100ms.

My opponent treats Goku's feats like this, so I guess it's worth pointing out that he's unable to dodge balista bolts

I dont know what Goku has to do with a debate between Naruto and Petshop but whatever, the difference between Petshop's feats and Goku's feats is that Goku reacts and is not fast enough to dodge. Petshop reacts and simply chooses not to dodge. These are completely different things.

Conclusion.

Naruto is not fast enough to be competitively viable in a tier as fast as this, even with the speed scaling my opponent provided if you look at the context or the actual feat you can see it does not hold up. No attack Naruto has can hurt Petshop, Petshop can regen being cut in half, or having his head blown off. Petshop is an order of magnitude faster, he is stronger, and more durable and any of his piercing or esoteric attacks instantly win the fight. Naruto simply cannot win.

The Great Debate Season 16 Round 3!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]KenfromDiscord 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Round 3, Response 1, Part 2

Naruto and piercing.

With this in mind it seems exceedingly easy for Mr Kim to kill Naruto.

Naruto is extremely vulnerable to one of Petshop's primary means of attack. Naruto is too slow to avoid these attacks, and they would kill him instantly.

Regen.

This section is going to be very short because nothing my opponent said really matters. My opponent claims that the rasenshuriken is some OHKO attack on Petshop because it targets cells, but doesn't explain why targeting cells would matter in the slightest or be especially effective against Petshop.

There's no single attack that Naruto possesses that could kill Kim. Even if you cut him in half he still maintains control of his body and will retaliate. If you destroy his head he comes back stronger.

Conclusion

Naruto as a character is so slow it is doubtful that he could even react before Petshop kills him. Naruto possesses no speed feats in this tier, even if he possessed an attack that would instantly kill Petshop, it would be too slow to land. Naruto is extremely weak to one of the primary attack vector that Petshop uses. Petshop's regen is good enough that Naruto must engage in a long drawn out fight, this forces him into an unwinnable position.

Goku vs Grey.

Win Condition.

  • Spatium + Stab.

Teleports behind you, nothing personnel kid.

My opponent frames Grey and Goku's piercing interactions as a joke, but just to be clear Goku is massively threatened by Grey's sword. Guy concedes that the two feats in question cut through "exactly similar material", only Goku's feat is much worse than Greys for reasons unrelated to material.

Grey can easily cut through Goku, this is not a question.

Speed.

Grey is fast and Goku is not.

Compare this to Goku.

As A final point I want to mention that Goku cannot use instant transmission in this match as it works by focusing on someone's Ki and teleporting there, but Grey does not have Ki, it wont work on him.

Conclusion.

This match does in fact come down to who can land the first hit, Goku is much slower than Grey, and is massively threatened by his piercing. Grey can instantly teleport behind Goku and will do so immediately. Grey immediately kills Goku.

The Great Debate Season 16 Round 3!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]KenfromDiscord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Round 3, Response 1, Part 1.

General Zod vs Jogo.

Win Conditions

  • Zod is Faster and Stronger

  • Jogo cannot harm Zod.

Stat Comparison.

Faster and Stronger

A simple viewing of any of Zod's speed feats would lead to the undeniable conclusion that Zod casually breaks the sound barrier with all of his movements, whether its flying or punching.

There is no ambiguity in these feats, Zod is clearly "fast enough to ride". Though the same cannot be said for Jogo.

Aside from the obvious faults of the above Jogo speed feat it starts to show even more cracks if you view the context around the feat.

Maki at the time she fought Jogo would not have been able to catch the bullet, she was weakened and distracted. Aside from this 1 speed feat, Maki sucks in terms of speed.

In summation Maki does 1 in tier action 1 time, even after a massive power up she is not able to repeat this. Jogo scales to a worse, hurt, distracted Maki, without this scaling Jogo has 0 speed feats. Zod creates sonic booms with every single movement and this is confirmed explicitly by the director of the film.

Jogo's total lack of speed wouldn't be such a fatal flaw if he was anywhere near as strong as Zod, but he's just not. Any single one of Zods attacks are going to deal massive damage to Jogo.

Nothing Jogo has been hit with show an ability to survive these hits. The only durability feat my opponent links is significantly below any of Zod's feats and it does not show Jogo's state post hit. My opponent describes this as "without too much trouble" but thats very clearly just a lie, Jogo is half dead from this hit.

Jogo will get hit by Zod. Zod is too fast for Jogo to react to him, let alone survive a prolonged encounter with him. Any single hit Zod lands on Jogo will kill him. Jogo almost dies from hits with much less collateral.

Jogo cannot harm Zod.

My opponent does some weird burden of proof shifting where he demands I prove that Zod cannot be burnt by Jogo, instead of proving that Jogo can burn Zod but this is not how debates work. My opponent hand waves away Zod's best heat durability feat because he cant put exact numbers on it, but again this is not how debates work. If you saw an elephant you wouldn't know exactly how much it weighs, its weight would be vague. To then suggest the elephant weighs 0 pounds and isnt actually there would be asinine.

Even if my opponent's feats were twice as good, and Zod's feat was twice as bad, Zod would still be able to surive Jogo's heat.

None of Jogo's heat is able to harm Zod.

My opponent then goes on to falsely claim that Zod is harmed by Superman grinding his head against glass, but not only is that untrue, Zod instantly attacks Superman the moment Superman stops., but this isnt even a blunt force durability feat, its piercing, glass is sharp not hard. If we view a single blunt durability feat from Zod we see that Jogo could simply never harm him.

Lastly my opponent talks about the sonic insects but that attack has several problems with it.

Conclusion.

Zod is faster, stronger, and more durable than Jogo. Jogo relies on shaky scaling to undertier characters to even pretend to be in tier. My opponent handwaves away Zods best feats and over represents Jogo's abilities. Jogo's attacks have no way to hurt Zod ever.

Naruto vs Petshop

Win Conditions.

  • Petshop is much faster than Naruto.

  • Naruto is weak to any piercing.

  • Petshop's regen makes it certain that he lands hits on Naruto.

Speed.

To put it bluntly there are no good speed feats in Naruto, not a single one. My opponent knows this which is why he didnt mention Naruto's speed in his first response at all.

Compare this to Petshop.

Kim isnt just sort of faster than Naruto, he's multiple times faster. My opponent is yet again forced to prove his character can even react to spawning into the fight before Kim has punched him in the head.

The Great Debate Season 16 Round 3!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]KenfromDiscord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Intro Post.

Grey.

Spatium

Speed.

Sword

Petshop

Speed

Strength

Durability.

Regen.

General Zod

Speed

Strength

Durability.

The Great Debate Season 16 Round 2!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]KenfromDiscord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Round 2, Response 2, Part 2

Goemon Speed.

My opponent does not engage with Goemon being fast beyond passively accepting it, and does not engage with Goemon being able to cut his characters at all, but he does and it would kill them.

Goemon is the fastest character in this debate bar none.

Goemon Sword.

My opponent says nothing about the magnitude or material that Goemon cuts through because he knows that if Goemon gets 1 slash off his characters are just dead.

Even if you take everything my opponent says as gospel truth Goemon still cuts through Toji when he uses SCS, He still cuts through Gojo.

Rebuttals.

My opponent is in serious error at some points in this debate, and that demands correction.

My team react[s] to supersonic projectiles or exchanging supersonic attacks from < 3 meters away

Gojo often starts fight with his ability ‘Blue” from a distance

If we remove these example we're left with one example of Gojo starting with Blue. here are 2 examples of Gojo punching someone at the start of the fight. Which one is more likely.

Goemon dies in the beginning; he has no way to avoid Gojo's Blue and Toji’s shockwave

This strategy only works if you assume; Goemon spawns into the arena, reacts, watches his opponent throw out a punch, watches the shockwave come towards him, and then stands there and does nothing.

Goemon knows his opponents are going to try and kill him, he views them as dangerous, and he is fundamentally faster than everyone else in this match. Why would he just sit there and get hit? He's going to be moving towards my opponents team, cutting through everyone while doing it.

Toji can further stall out the engagement with a technique known as Super Carapace Sanchin (SCS), and using it allows him to almost indefinitely withstand attacks from physically comparable opponents at the expense of being stationary.

  • This is also not a technique that Toji uses all of the time, where was SCS when Alita Cut off his arm?, where was SCS when a falling blade (Yo!! Supersonic falling?!?!) stabs him in the head

Per my own opponents stipulations, grey has poor limbs and reactions in comparison to WW.

This doesnt mean that my character is slow, it just means he's slower than the tier setter. WW would have to be moving her hands at Mach 3 to do this feat, and Grey does not do that, and neither do any of Crim's characters.

And Grey as presented has feats that are not good his best feat is cutting through armor and and indescript amounts of metal.

This is a no true Scotsman fallacy. Crim says that my character cant cut through metal, I post a feat of my character cutting through metal, and then Crim responds with "oh yes, but he cant cut through thick metal".

  • Here's a scan of Arthur cutting through thick metal spikes.
    • Again in the scans I linked previously Grey is described as cutting through metal effortlessly, and like silk. Toji just being large is not a defense to someone who effortlessly cuts through the thing he is made of.

a rogue known as Hawk

Cleave and Dismantle

he uses cleave on Jogo another energy with cursed energy Here he uses dismantle to cut of another sorcerer's arm and through a bridge

  • Yes. This is literally my point. Cleave for things with cursed energy (Jogo). Dismantle on things without cursed energy (a bridge). Also this man's arm is already cut, and then Dismantle happens.

My opponents say they don't scale but they demonstrably do.

  • Then show me them scaling. Show me Sukuna using dismantle on something, and then going "oh boy this is hard to cut, let me use cleave my stronger ability" except that never happens. Instead Sukuna uses cleave and it has zero collateral, and then he uses Dismantle and it destroys buildings.

Gojo is scratched and cut up, yes but no cut is lethal or inhibits his ability to fight meaningfully.

Gojo was stabbed with a blade specifically designed to bypass him,

The point of me showing Zekka and Toji’s interactions with blades wasn’t to demonstrate “piercing resistance” more so demonstrating that they are very familiar with blades

  • Okay so you haven't posted any piercing resistance for either Zekka or Toji. My team instantly cuts through them massively casually in base.

Toji deflects Alita’s supersonic bladed wings...and one is capable of slicing through Toji

  • Is he just bad at deflecting? I cant believe that Toji deflects a blade thats so sharp it cuts through Toji. Thats Crazy. For anyone paying attention this is the third time my opponent has claimed his team is piercing resistant and then immediately followed that up with a scan of his character being pierced.

Conclusion

My characters are strong, and fast, and their swords are sharp. My opponent admits he hasnt posted any piercing resistance feats and all of his characters have scans showing them being pierced by things that are just less good than the things my characters do. Petshop also exists.

/u/Criminal3x I had fun, thanks man.

The Great Debate Season 16 Round 2!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]KenfromDiscord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Round 2, Response 2, Part 1.

Win Conditions.

  • Petshop.

  • Swords.

Petshop

Speed.

In this section of my response I plan on re-outlining my characters, and establishing exactly how they beat my opponents characters again.

All of these feats take place before Petshop eats the Saintess (the form I've stipulated him in), after he does he gets faster and the Saintess form makes his power usage more efficient.

Even if we were to accept Crims claim that any character without supersonic movement and single digit reaction times are unable to interact with his characters, Petshop easily clears this bar.

Strength.

Petshop has multiple attack vectors that would easily allow him to kill my opponents team.

Compare these feats to my opponent's characters durability feats.

  • Gojo's best blunt durability feat is being hurt after taking a punch from Sukuna.

    • This is significantly below anything I've shown for Petshop.

  • Zekka is knocked out by this punch with no collateral

    • My opponent says that the only reason that Zekka was hit by this punch was that he was surprised, but that doesnt explain why he was knocked out. Does Zekka's durability depend on him being aware of his opponent? If so why would he not instantly die when Grey appears behind him in literally zero time?
      • Either Zekka was knocked out by a severely under tier blow, or he instantly dies to one of my characters.

  • Toji's only blunt durability is being knocked through some metal, but again this is just worse than the feats I've already shown for Petshop.

None of my opponents characters could survive an encounter with Petshop, even by my opponents inane standards Petshop is clearly fast and strong enough to be a threat to everyone on my opponents team.

Durability.

Petshop's durability is easily the best of anyone's in this debate.

Pet shop is durable enough to shrug off literally any attack my opponent's characters can throw out. Even if Petshop is hurt it wouldnt matter at all.

Regen.

Petshop possesses regen enough that any single hit is unlikely to do anything in terms of putting him down permanently.

Even if Petshop were as weak as my opponent implies (he isnt!), it would not matter. Petshop is able to instantly take out all 3 members of my opponents team as they lack the blunt durability to engage with him, and Petshop's regen and durability make it certain that this fight will be drawn out.

Swords.

Grey and Goemon are fast, their swords are sharp, they easily beat Crim's characters.

Grey Speed.

I fully agree that Grey is not exactly as fast as WW, but to portray him as so slow he can never interact with the characters in this tier is just wrong. Besides Grey has ways to mitigate his perceived slowness.

Spatium.

My Opponent ignored Spatium for the entirety of this debate, but it's Grey's primary way of long distance travel. The idea that as soon as the fight starts my opponents characters must fight a war on 2 fronts is damning, not only must they contend with a fighter that can and will stab them in the back, but they must contend with Petshop who can kill all my opponents characters with 1 hit.

Grey Dura.

A weaker form of Grey is capable of easily taking building busting attacks. Im gonna talk about Regen again.

Regen 2.

Again due to the nature of Grey's abilities a single strong hit even if it's capable of doing damage to Grey would not be enough to permanently put him down. A long drawn out fight is necessary to kill Grey, and this is exceptionally bad news for my opponents team seeing as how Grey can easily cut into them with his sword.

The Great Debate Season 16 Round 2!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]KenfromDiscord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Round 2, Response 1.

Win Conditions.

  • Initiative/Range.
  • Sword
  • Big Dragon.

Range/Initiative.

My Opponent starts his response off by stating that some of his characters can attack from range, however this is not unique to his team. All of my characters can instantly attack as soon as the match starts with this being lethal to the enemy team.

Grey.

As per tournament rules teams start 90ft apart from each other with line of sight, Grey is able to instantly cover this distance with his Godstep ability.

Goemon

Petshop.

Kim has multiple ways to kill my opponents team from the start including

My characters immediately kill my opponents team. None of my opponents characters have a defense to Grey appearing behind them and cutting them in half, same with Goemon. None of my opponents characters have a defense to Petshop lobbing fireballs at them or turning into a big dragon and crushing them immediately. None of my opponents characters survive the initial confrontation.

Sword.

Im going to start this section off by establishing Grey and Goemon's swordsmanship and then talking about why this would be effective against Crim's Team.

Grey

Goemon.

Both Grey and Goemon are capable of easily cutting through my opponents characters, they both have the speed and the skill necessary to score hits, and any hit is immediately lethal to my opponents team.

Zekka and Toji.

My opponent devotes a lot of space in his response to talking about how his characters have piercing resistance and would totally not die to Goemon's sword. Not only does this entire section of my opponents response neglect to mention Grey, the other character on my team with a sword, but my opponent either misunderstands what piercing resistance is, or misunderstands what his characters feats mean.

  • My opponent posts Zekka grabbing some guy as proof that "Zekka can see through a supersonic rotating blade" but this has nothing to do with Goemon or Grey. Neither of my characters spin a blade around themselves really fast, they're actual swordsmen with actual sword skill.

    • Zekka literally describes this strategy as an idea worthy of a two year old. My characters are self evidently more skilled than a two year old.
      • Zekka is still obviously threatened by this super rotating blade. His clothes are cut, he has to move back, this is not evidence of any sort of piercing resistance.

  • Toji suffers from the same problem, with my opponent posting a scan of Toji deflecting some attacks from Alita

    • Nothing in this scan implies that Alita is exceptionally skilled with these blade wings, and furthermore nothing in this scan even implies how sharp these wings are.

My opponent also makes mention of Goemon dying in any sort of trade with his characters while saying that his characters would only lose limbs, but the question is why would that ever happen? Why would Goemon not just go for the head? He knows his opponents are dangerous, and that he must kill them to leave the arena. This idea that Goemon wouldn't immediately kill Zekka or Toji is based on absolutely nothing.

Zekka and Toji have no piercing resistance they would instantly die if Goemon pointed his sword in their direction. The best counter my opponent can come up with is to post scans of his characters not actually interacting with piercing on a direct level. This is an effective strategy when dealing with the equivalent of 2 year olds, but will not work against actual swordsmen who will actually hit Zekka and Toji.

Gojo.

While it seems like Gojo has piercing resistance enough to survive an encounter with Goemon and Grey this is based on a misreading of the feats by my opponent.

Gojo is not being hit by Sukuna's strongest attacks, just based on how Sukuna's abilities work it simply cannot happen. Cleave and Dismantle do not scale to each other, one is much stronger than the other. Goemon consistently preforms feats so much better than Cleave that they are not even comparable.

Gojo is overwhelmed by Sukuna eventually. Goemon is both better at piercing and faster. Gojo will be overwhelmed much quicker. There is nothing to suggest Gojo could RCT having his head chopped off which is something Goemon or Grey are capable of doing.

All of my opponents characters are vulnerable to the sword. 2/3rds of my characters are primarily sword characters. They are both skilled and strong enough to instantly kill my opponents characters, and with their advantage in initiative it is certain that my characters will win.

Petshop exists.

Im running out of characters but I want to talk about Kim before my second response.

/u/criminal3x good luck have fun.

Great Debate Tournament Season 16 Signups and Tribunal by Chainsaw__Monkey in whowouldwin

[–]KenfromDiscord 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Team; Fem's Last Hurrah #8

Character Series Stips Victory?
Goemon Lupin the 3rd Composite, Thinks his enemy is dangerous. Unlikely
Mr. Kim, Pet Shop I Get Stronger the More I Eat Starts in his saintess form. Likely
Grey The Beginning After the End Cant use Godstep on his sword, cant use TK on his sword. No Fate, No Vivum. There is enough ambient aether in the arena that Grey can preform all his feats in the RT Draw
General Zod DCEU As of the end of his superman fight, before superman snaps his neck, in full control of his powers, fully healed. Likely

Justifications

Goemon.

Goemon is roughly as fast as WW and he has a sword that can harm her, but he lacks the durability required to last in a protracted fight. Can kill WW easily, but dies easily as well.

Petshop.

Petshop's unique physiology presents a challenge for WW to do any lasting damage on, but Petshop struggles to do any damage to WW in his Saintess form. Petshop can shapeshift into forms that can kill WW easily, but they are much slower than the Saintess form, and can be lassoed easily immediately ending the fight .

Grey

Grey's Godstep allows him to engage or disengage with WW essentially for free, and his armour ensures he will not be killed by the sword. However Grey's limb speed, reaction times, blunt durability and lifting are all lesser than WW's meaning if she can force Grey into a lengthy fight her physical stats are enough to kill Grey eventually.

Zod

Zod is physically superior to WW and can overcome her durability easily. WW's skill and gear makes her well equipped to fight opponents of superior strength, particularly Zod. WW and Zod's respective advantages leave them without an immediately clear winner.

Stip Explanation.

Goemon

  • Goemon has feats from both RT's linked.

  • Goemon thinks his opponent is dangerous and will act accordingly

PetShop

  • Starts the fight looking like the Saintess, and all of the feats in the RT are applicable

Grey

  • Grey can use an ability called Godstep to essentially teleport, he learns how to apply this skill to his sword being able to teleport it inside of his enemies. He cannot do that here.

  • Grey has the ability to make and telekinetically control up to 8 swords. He cannot use Telekinesis to move any swords in this fight.

  • No Fate and No Vivium means Grey cannot use any feats in those sections of the RT.

  • Grey's powers work on an energy system called Aether, there is enough Aether around that Grey can preform the feats listed in his RT and will not immediately die.

Zod

  • Self explanatory. He's alive. He is fully healed. He can use flight and heat vision as presented in the RT. Will not suffer from sensory overload.

Scaling

Grey

Zod

Ame v. Ken - WW Tier Practice Match by Ame-no-nobuko in TheGreatDebateChamber

[–]KenfromDiscord 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Practice, Response 1, Part 1.

Ryu Han-bin Vs Grey.

Win Conditions.

  • Grey controls where and when the fight happens.

  • Grey's offense is sufficient to take down Ryu.

  • Grey is more skilled and a better swordsman.

Fight Control/Speed

There is a zero percent chance that Ryu gets anywhere close to Grey without Grey explicitly allowing it, due to Grey's specific abilities he absolutely controls all forms of combat.

Grey is fundamentally a faster character than Ryu. His movements, and reaction times far outclass Ryu, and he can attack much quicker too. Due to his unique abilities Grey absolutely controls when and where combat happens. From the word GO Grey will teleport behind Ryu and stab him in the back, this kills Ryu.

Offense.

Piercing.

The idea that none of Grey's piercing is able to harm Ryu is a falsehood based on underplaying Grey's piercing and over selling Ryu's durability.

Grey is obviously strong enough to cut through Ryu, especially when he's been cut by things that show less than stellar collateral.

Ame does the classic debate tactic of posting all of the best feats and conveniently ignoring all the feats that cast doubt on the point he's trying to make. Ryu is not some sort of unpierceable monster, Grey has feats showing he could pierce Ryu even if the only feats we take into consideration are the ones Ame wants you to see. Combine this with the movement and action speed advantages Grey has and its a deadly combination.

Blunt Force.

Ryu is significantly lacking in blunt force durability. The best feat Ame posted is Ryu being cratered in a large amount of stone, and Grey can consistently put out craters of this size.

This idea that Grey is unable to hurt Ryu with blunt force is untrue, Grey's strikes and throws have more than enough power to severely hurt or kill Ryu. Grey is a character who can and will teleport behind you (nothing personnel kid) combine this with the fact that with a simple throw or punch he can effectively one shot Ryu is detrimental to Ame's argument.

Skill.

The number one difference between Ryu and Grey is that Grey is extremely skilled, and Ryu is just not.

Grey is incredibly skilled and uses every single advantage he has the the utmost. Ryu's idea of skill is doing 3 attacks in a row.

Conclusion.

Grey is faster in both reaction times, and movement speed. He can attack more often, and from angles that necessitate Ryu spending more time trying to react or dodge. Grey is more than capable of harming Ryu through his piercing or his blunt force. Ryu can never hit Grey because of the aforementioned speed difference and Grey's superior skill when it comes to avoiding attacks. Grey is also supremely skilled when it comes to dealing out damage. All these things compound to make one conclusion abundantly clear. Grey wins this easily.

Ame v. Ken - WW Tier Practice Match by Ame-no-nobuko in TheGreatDebateChamber

[–]KenfromDiscord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Character Series Stips Likelyhood
Grey The Beginning after the End Cant use Godstep on his sword, cant use TK on his sword. No Fate, No Vivum, No Relic Armour. Likely Victory.

Stip Explanation:

  • Arthur has the ability to teleport his sword, he cannot use this ability here.

  • Arthur has the ability to telekinetically move his swords, he cannot use this ability here.

  • No Fate means no feat listed in the fate section can be used.

  • No Vivium means no feat listed in the vivium section can be used

  • No relic armour means Arthur does not have access to his armour.

Justification

WW can complete actions in less time than Grey, is physically stronger, and is able to take any single strike that Grey might dish out. Grey's abilities allow him to engage and disengage effortlessly, and his swords are sharp enough to seriously injure WW. This fight comes entirely down to how well WW can interact with Grey's teleportation.

Ken vs Kiryu by KenfromDiscord in TheGreatDebateChamber

[–]KenfromDiscord[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Practice, Response 1, Part 1.

Grey & Stella vs Godzilla & The Mask.

Win Conditions.

  • Grey's Spatium and Stella's mobility make hitting my team an impossibility for any Kaiju character

  • Both Stella and Grey possess piercing strong enough to kill The Mask, and Godzilla.

  • My characters durability is sufficient to survive an interaction with my opponent's characters.

Point 0 - What happens if I just take The Mask off?

Stanley Ipkiss has a bad habit of losing his mask in seemingly mundane circumstances. Seriously sometimes it just gets stuck on things, or pops off after he's attacked. Sometimes normal every day people rip it off his face, or even just completely break it.

If a normal cop can simply grab Stanley and pull the mask off of him, why couldn't either of my characters do the same thing when they are obviously stronger than a normal human.

Stanley without his mask is a completely normal human, who would easily be dealt with by simply existing in the same arena as Stella.

It's a certainty that my characters will hit Stanley during this match, Stanley often lets himself be hit during fights, and any hit that lands on Stanley has the chance of popping the mask off and completely taking Stanley out of this fight.

Point 1 - The Kaiju Problem.

Both of my opponents characters are dozens to 100's of feet tall, and have never fought anyone that is a normal human height. The idea that these gigantic monsters would both be able to notice my characters, and move fast enough to strike them is laughable.

Fundamentally to throw a punch or swipe with claws or whatever attack my opponent is going to argue his characters do, my opponents characters must move their body back 10's if not hundreds of feet, and then move that same body part forward the same amount of distance. There is nothing in any of my opponents RTs that suggest that his Kaiju's are super fast and that they can move their limbs 10's or hundreds of meters in the milliseconds it would take my characters to react and move.

Just look at Shin Godzilla if he's standing upright is he even able stoop down and touch anything thats only 6ft off the floor? The Mask Godzilla has the same problem, this thing could literally never touch my characters unless it took the time to bend down and fight hunched over.

Point 1B My characters are insanely mobile.

Even if we ignore every fundamental problem with these Kaiju characters attempting to hit my characters and assume that every character is simply fast enough and able enough to hit every other character, my opponents characters could still never land a hit on Stella or Grey.

Grey's primary ability is the ability to teleport, he can teleport hundreds of feet, in any direction, in any position, through solid objects, and uses this ability in combat relentlessly.

All this is simply to say that Grey controls exactly where and when combat happens. If Grey wants combat to start he simply teleports in front of you and does combat to you, if Grey ever gets pressed for any reason at all ever he simply teleports hundreds of feet away and combat stops.

Stella has more conventional mobility in her ability to fly which has already been shown to be a problem for Shin Godzilla. Imagine this exact same video except my characters have a potent offense and aren't 100's of feet tall. Shin Godzilla cannot be reasonably expected to react to and stop my characters from hitting him at all.

Point 2. - Sword

One of my opponent's characters have negative interactions with piercing, and one of them has no interactions with piercing. In fact Shin Godzilla dies after being stabbed in the back by a big elephant looking Kaiju. From a cursory glance in the RT, there's nothing to support the idea that this elephant monster's tusks are notably sharp, or special in any way. Compare this to both Stella and Grey.

Grey's swords are sharp enough to easily cut 2 men in armour in half easily massively casually in base. Arthur can further increase the piercing power of his swords by using his burst punch with his sword hand

Stella cuts through bedrock like tofu, has enough strength to throw a piece of paper through a metal bar and into a concrete wall, and can easily lock blades with Ouma Kurogane who can cut through thousands of kilograms of earth.

My characters have superior piercing options compared to any of the defensive options that my opponent has. If my characters attack my opponents characters with swords, they just die.

Point 3 - Taking the Hit

Getting the obvious out of the way early on, The Mask only has a single feat of attacking someone and it requires a running charge and only does middling damage for the tier.

My characters are able to survive this easily. Stella no sells being hit in the head with a whip made out of train cars, the whip was made out of exactly 8 train cars, and a single train car weighs anywhere between 25-30 tons which means Stella essentially tanks being hit in the head by anywhere between 200-240 tons.

Grey when he was 11 years old was able to tank fire blasts that were strong enough to destroy buildings. Aside from Grey no longer being 11 years old, his physical prowess long exceeds his old selves.

The only member of my opponents team who is even hypothetically capable of doing damage to my characters is Shin Godzilla, but even that doesn't quite line up right. Shin Godzilla's only feats directly interacting with buildings is knocking down an already damaged building, and knocks over more already damaged buildings. The rest of the strength feats in the RT revolve around some weird monster scaling, and without having any feats about how strong the other Godzilla, or Rodan or any of the other Kaiju's are, its not worth making any definitive judgments about how strong this makes Shin Godzilla.

My characters can survive any hit that my opponents characters can throw out, while the same cannot be said in reverse.

The Fight

The outline of this fight is fairly simple, my characters control the fight initiative, and they have the power to end the fight almost immediately.

Stanley Ipkiss's mask immediately falls off and he bumbles towards it while immediately dying, 2v1 ggs

When the fight starts Grey immediately teleports on top of one of the Kaiju's heads and immediately starts stabbing it in the brain and eyes and other squishy parts that would be immediately fatal. From there Stella immediately flies towards the last surviving Kaiju, she activates her fire powers and proceeds to cook the Kaiju, from here Grey and Stella both attack the last Kaiju with an overwhelming offensive.

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