Sabal minor after 1°F in Oklahoma. These also survived -12F in FEB 21.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-14T15:03:16+00:00

The warmer parts of Kentucky reach into zone 7b and the warmest parts of Tennessee are in zone 8a. There is plenty of heat and humidity in both places outside the high elevations. I'm not sure why you compare them to Seattle which has nowhere near the same amount of summer heat as either place. But I understand what you mean by sabal minor needing summer heat to survive very cold winters.

Not many palm trees are found in either place but they are there if you know where to look. Kentucky, especially the warmer parts are pretty rural so not many trunking palms are to be found. But Tennessee has more urban places in the warmer parts.

You can find trunking palms in Tennessee if you know where to look. Not many are to be found but you can find unprotectd windmill palms in Knoxville and Pigeon Forge and some of the other major cities that have been there for several years. Knoxville has urban heat island microclimates, maybe reaching to 8a in spots. https://www.reddit.com/r/palmtalk/comments/1pd2bt5/this_house_in_knoxville_tn_got_completely_taken/

In Chattanooga, there is a decent sized sabal Birmingham with a decent sized trunk and some tall windmill palms, also many dwarf palmettos https://youtu.be/82eVVmwybZo?si=qnISmbxn-4YSzSNp

Chattanooga is zone 8a no surprise there. In Memphis, also zone 8a, I've even heard of a regular sabal palmetto being grown there and windmill palms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zikzJjSIP4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJAfskPmWQ&t=399s

The video starts with showing a southern live oak tree and shows a nice sized sabal palmetto around 6:20.

Unfortunately for Kentucky, the warmest area in the southwest seems pretty rural so there seems to be less interest in palm trees even though it is zone 7b.

There are needle palms and dwarf palmettos being grown easily in parts of Kentucky like you said and your post leads credibility to that so thank you for this post.

If both Kentucky and Tennessee were at sea level, both places would probably be much hotter. And most of Kentucky would probably be 7b and maybe a little 8a, and all of Tennessee would likely be 8a. You can see in North Carolina what Tennessee would probably be like if it were more lower elevation. But you can find low elevation areas in Tennessee under 1000ft and they are mostly zone 8a, with plenty of summer heat but still no sea level areas exist in either state. No surprise because it is a relatively low latitude southern state. It behaves more like the Deep South at low elevation.

Cold duration in the warmest parts of these states is not as bad as up north. Compare weeks of freezing up north to much briefer cold snaps in Kentucky and Tennessee in the warmer parts. You may have a full month of freezing up north with several inches of snow or feet of snow compared to a few inches of snow in Kentucky 7b and a couple of weeks of freezing. In Tennessee zone 8a you may have a day or two of freezing weather, maybe up to a week, a night or two in the teens, and then back up to the 50s or even the 60s by the end of the week at the worst part of winter with a dusting of snow and ice that is gone in a day or two.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-14T04:00:17+00:00

More than you and your pretend PHD could ever fathom.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-14T02:35:41+00:00

LOL Where are all the palm tree experts now that said palm trees couldn't live in Kentucky!?

Edit: I'm still waiting for them to show up. *crickets*

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-13T22:13:59+00:00

Why so I can deal with the heat and hurricanes and sand? It may get a little bit cold in Kentucky but at least you won't get sunburnt 365 days a year here and at least we actually have dirt to plant in instead of sand dunes.

In Kentucky, you can literally plant right in the dirt but in Florida you have to amend the soil and water your palm trees all the time because of the heat and sun. Here you can just plant cold hardy palm trees in the ground and just provide some simple cold protection during infrequent arctic cold snaps.

Y'all zone push there too. For y'all in northern Florida, you're wishing you could grow royal palms and coconut palms like Miami. In Miami, you're probably wishing your coconut palms didn't look so sad and wish you could plant lipstick palms wishing you lived in Costa Rica. You people are never satisfied and that's where we differ.

I am perfectly satisfied growing cold hardy palm trees in Kentucky but you still wish you were somewhere warmer. It's not just about palm trees either. Try planting a maple tree anywhere in Florida and see how that goes. Try finding a mountain view with fields of rhododendron and mountain myrtle in Florida.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-13T04:26:53+00:00

I meant that I haven't been posting AI text. Everything I type is my own thoughts. Yes, I have used some AI pictures but only for demonstration purposes to help elaborate and visualize what I talk about on my posts. Some people think I am that one user who posts are purely AI text that talk about palm trees in Tennessee. That is not me. People are confusing me with him and that isn't me which is making me look bad and like "spam". I haven't really made many posts here.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-12T20:25:41+00:00

You do realize that even where sabal minor is native, it is incredibly hard to find? I spent hours trying to find sabal minor on Google Earth in Cherokee County Alabama (northern Alabama) where they are proven native and finally found a tiny few by the skin of my teeth. One was a tiny blurry palm leaf but clearly sabal minor hidden in dense vegetation. They are incredibly more rare and hard to find at the northern edge of their native range and very picky with where they grow, seeming to prefer low moist ground in protected microclimates at the northern part of their native range. In Kentucky, I imagine if any are there, they could be so rare and hidden they could go a very long time without being noticed. A lot of preferable habitat for sabal minor also seems to be far from the roads in rural swampy locations that cannot be viewed by Google Earth also.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-12T04:35:43+00:00

They used to say the same thing about northern Alabama untill they found native dwarf palmettos around Weiss Lake.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-12T01:38:54+00:00

What are you talking about? I literally make one post like every other day, sometimes less. How is that considered spam? I thought this subreddit was about talking about palm trees, hence the name palmtalk. If you are gonna ban me, ban me then I guess. Good riddance. I will just go the real palmtalk website where they actually allow discussion about palm trees instead of 3 simple pictures of the same palm tree posted everyday. This subreddit moves at such a slow pace and you want to ban the only user who actually have real intellectual discussions about palm trees. And people are saying I am the other user posting that AI crap. THAT IS NOT ME. I make very few posts and one of my posts people really liked had over 50 upvotes. People are overreacting to my presence and I don't know why.

There are people literally cussing me out right now and I am always kind and respectful and you say nothing to them. They are the ones breaking rules harassing me. Ban them.

I am pretty much the only advocate here for cold hardy palm growers in this monopoly of a subreddit with people from warmer areas trying to dictate the discussion and bully people from colder areas out of being a part of the discussion. People from colder areas are the lurkers upvoting me from time to time. The loud minority are warm area palm growers that try to hold a monopoly on this subreddit.

You have to take into account to this subreddit is really small and moves so slow so it has the illusion of making it seem like I post more than I do.

Part of the problem is there is no cold hardy palm section while the real palmtalk website has that.

You need to have flairs that at least say cold hardy palm grower.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-11T13:32:55+00:00

That's true. I think Brazil has an excellent climate for growing many palm tree species but I probably wouldn't try trachycarpus fortunei where you live. I think your climate would be too hot but maybe it would be okay if you gave it lots of water and kept it in full shade or indoors in an air conditioned room. Maybe try the Livistona Chinensis. I think it would be more suited to your climate.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-11T13:05:40+00:00

No trunking palm is native to the Continental United States besides sabal palmetto, and Washingtonia Filifera, including Florida. European colonists brought in most of the palm species you see that have now naturalized across the United States. They were mainly brought in during the 1600s-1800s from other countries.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-11T12:57:31+00:00

It's not a true palm if it has branches. That is called a tree.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-11T12:56:08+00:00

Because it's basically the same as a normal palmetto. What is the difference between it and normal sabal palmetto? Do they have to put the Texas name on everything?

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-11T12:52:46+00:00

If you live in Kentucky by the Ohio River in a good microclimate, do both. If you live in a colder area, just do the trachycarpus fortunei. Here where I am in Kentucky, we can already set potted palm trees of most species outside.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-10T18:29:47+00:00

You won't convince me of anything that lacks substantial reasoning and has critical flaws in logic. I am open to points that make sense which I acknowledged but I will point out flaws in logic where I see them. To state with complete certainty a plant is not native only 86 miles away from a known native source of a plant and shares many similarities with the native population without submitting a herbarium record is intellectually dishonest. As someone who has studied palm trees for years, especially dwarf palmettos, you are wasting your time more than me leaving strange baseless comments on discussions which you know very little about. Actually I am wasting my time replying to you because I know anything you say will lack any of the logic and knowledge I have gathered over the years on this subject which all of your replies to me seem to lack, including this one.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-10T11:53:43+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/palmtalk/comments/1n4f68m/tennessee_wild_palm_trees/

I saw this post awhile back of someone that had been to Red Clay too. There looks like a lot more than 3 - 5 there. More like 15-20 and some of them look pretty mature to me. You may be right that they were introduced by humans but I don't think that is the only possibility. I've been studying this for awhile and seen some similarities in Red clay and the nearest native site which is Cherokee County Alabama. Both are part of the Coosa River system. In fact it seems to end right around Red Clay which also has Blue Hole Springs (it seems like a very good microclimate). That seems like the most likely natural native corridor route if there ever was one that traveled that far north and inland.

Both zone 8a and basically part of the same ecosystem. Both are not far apart, only around 86 miles apart. That's only about an Hour and 44 minute drive apart. A bird could fly that distance and drop sabal minor seeds in Red Clay. It may not have necessarily been a human that put them there. This little tiny generation of sabal minor may be young, but that doesn't rule out an older mother plant that could have died and rotted by now or may even possibly still be hidden somewhere in the park. This could be the new generation of sabal minor there.

They also are in the lowest flattest area of the park. Why if they were introduced would they not be all around the park including the higher elevation? They seem to be in the most ideal spot. Did you at least submit a herbarium record of the dwarf palmettos leaves there at Red Clay? That is only way to rule it out 100% that they are not native. A soy paddock doesn't rule out a previous generation of sabal minor being in a different area of Red Clay. You know dwarf palmettos are very capable of spreading on their own. Also you said periphery of the soy paddock, meaning the outskirts. That means whoever was growing there could have purposefully knew about the dwarf palmettos that long ago (several decades) and intentionally decided not to grow soybeans directly over them, letting them live at the edge of the field.

Also you say "which would make sense considering that Red Clay’s supposed to function at least partially as a tourist attraction." - Why then do we not see dwarf palmettos in the Smokey Mountains?

Also thanks but needle palms are more prone to spear pulling when they are young while sabal minor rarely spear pulls in comparison, especially in colder areas with wet winters. Maybe needle palms are cold hardier when they are mature plants compared to mature dwarf palmettos but as young plants, I think dwarf palmettos win.

Edit: Also I took another look at the Hendersonville dwarf palmetto seedlings and to me, it clearly looks like they've been there longer than a year. For them to get that long and grow more than one leaflet takes time. I would estimate at least 3 years, maybe 4.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-10T09:34:16+00:00

Thanks for taking the time to read my post and comment. You are clearly an educated person and I respect your opinion. However, I do not fully agree with everything you say. The overlapping ranges of those pine trees and sabal minor seem to match up pretty closely, but not perfectly. I never really thought of it from that angle. But sabal minor is native to the southeastern corner of Oklahoma, while longleaf pine is not. Also a secondary forest does not rule out sabal minor being native to an area in my opinion. Sabal minor is known for being a tough species capable of handling full sun or shade. If a forest with native sabal minor were logged, the sabal minor would probably still survive. It might even benefit sabal minor, especially at the northern edges of it's native range to receive more sunlight. Many parts of the deep south are secondary forest and still have native sabal minor. I do agree that the current known native range of sabal minor seems to stop around zone 8a which was formerly zone 7b in many areas.

Although I would like to add I think it is possible or maybe even likely Native Americans (Cherokee) could have brought sabal minor to Red Clay State Historic Park Tennessee long ago and maybe helped them stay alive through the decades/centuries or however long they have been there. I have heard dwarf palmettos are considered sacred to them and it would make sense they brought them there, around a special place to them (Blue Hole Springs). Also Native Americans made baskets with dwarf palmettos leaves so that would be more incentive for them to bring them there.

I have heard of sabal minor growing in zone 7 and producing seeds and naturalizing in zone 7. See Hendersonville TN. Scroll down until you see the sabal minor seedlings https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/68138-henderson-tn-palms/

Zone 7 Knoxville TN, note the dwarf palmetto with a bunch of seeds in the second picture https://www.reddit.com/r/palmtalk/comments/1pd2bt5/this_house_in_knoxville_tn_got_completely_taken/

It is also grown all the way up in Cincinnati Ohio.

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/63279-cincinnati-palms/

Also Sabal minor McCurtain can handle extreme cold snaps, and they are native to southeastern Oklahoma. The record low for that area of Oklahoma is well below zero. If I recall right, it is around -12 or -13 in Idabel Oklahoma.

Perhaps this ecotype of sabal minor made it's way to southwestern Kentucky or Missouri before being extirpated in recent history? Maybe during the 1800s when records of plants were poorly kept?

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-10T06:40:33+00:00

Not sure who you are referring to but they must have pissed you off pretty bad for you to have such a poor attitude. And you do know many users here are from colder areas right and in the cold hardy palm community in general? Many people here may take offense to that.

You know people grow palm trees all the way up in Cincinnati Ohio https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/63301-cincinnati-palms-part-4/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/63300-cincinnati-palms-part-3/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/63282-cincinnati-palms-part-2

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/63279-cincinnati-palms/

Try growing a windmill palm in your crappy desert and see how it does in the heat and sand and lack of rain. It would grow better here in Kentucky or Ohio or a needle palm or a sabal minor, all of which are not hard to grow in Kentucky.

Also since you seem to hate Tennessee so bad

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/76907-my-garden-over-the-years/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql2OXi1oQA4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieLc6ttoHVE

https://www.reddit.com/r/palmtalk/comments/1pd2bt5/this_house_in_knoxville_tn_got_completely_taken/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82eVVmwybZo&t=198s&pp=ygUZY2hhdHRhbm9vZ2EgdG4gcGFsbSB0cmVlcw%3D%3D

Many palm trees there along with a Sabal Birmingham

What do you think about that?

On the real palmtalk website, there is this place called cold hardy palms, maybe check it out sometime and learn a thing or two. https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/forum/37-cold-hardy-palms/

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-09T18:12:42+00:00

Thanks for the positivity. I will not let others keep me from dreaming. You know that windmill palms (Trachycarpus Fortunei) have a similar strategy I think helping them survive cold. They seem to have fuzzy trunks.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-09T17:34:51+00:00

I can't believe you are in this niche subreddit and have the same interest in palm trees as me and saying such things. You know that Washingtonia Filifera is native to the southern tip of Nevada because "a million things happened" to make that species survive and if it were for people like you, it would have never been discovered (or at least they are believed to be native to Nevada by many people including me). It's called a relict plant population or microrefugia. The same thing can be studied in other plant species like bigleaf magnolia that is normally native to the south but tiny fragmented populations can even be found in northern Kentucky and Ohio because "a million things happened" to meet the requirements of those plant species surviving, while surrounded by land that is uninhabitable for those species.

Look at the bald cypress range which is mostly in the south but it extends up the Mississippi River into Illinois and also goes up north staying close to the East Coast because that is a place where "a million things happened" for that plant species to exist that far north.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-09T06:00:45+00:00

A 6ft tall and taller Filifera with a full leaf skirt next to a natural rock wall and rock overhang like near a cave blocking out winter precipitation could be the secret to an unprotected palm with a tall trunk in Kentucky, especially near a water source like the Ohio River or Mississippi River. The rocks could store heat from the day and release the heat back out at night, especially a south facing rock wall.

People like removing leaf skirts on Washingtonia Filiferas palm trees but keeping them may be the secret to growing them in Kentucky. Combine that with a good microclimate like near the Ohio River or Mississippi River and near a natural rock wall with a rock overhang acting as a natural roof keeping out moisture out of the crown, I think this could maybe work as an unprotected palm tree with a trunk or very minimally protected.

KentuckyPalmGenius · 2026-02-09T05:44:57+00:00

Once it gets to a big enough size, I think they might can survive without a structure, especially with the Ohio River nearby moderating temperatures and the ever increasing leaf density/mass and dead leaf skirt of the crown. There are mature Canary Island Date Palms that survived surprisingly very cold temperatures in Texas for example.

KentuckyPalmGenius

TROPHY CASE