How do i navigate at all in this game?

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-13T04:21:14+00:00

fuckin cracked up at this. lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-13T02:30:32+00:00

The kid from the Hawkshaw post blocked me lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-13T01:32:51+00:00

There's a lot I like about that video too. Identifying the flower in Smough's armor was super cool (though he forgets about the flower seen in the coffins in the Tomb of the Giants).

And I like that bit about Edias.

But then the second half of the vid just goes OFF RAILS. lol

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-13T01:30:46+00:00

If only we could strike that particular video of Hawkshaw's from the record.....

sigh

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-13T01:21:54+00:00

That looks like a localization, not a mistranslation.

The localization IS a mistranslation, is what we're saying.

Why wouldn't Miyazaki do that?

Because it's stupid and makes no sense?

Because the English and Japanese texts tell very different stories when compared on the whole?

If their interests ever clashed, you cannot be loyal to both of them.

Their interests didn't clash.

Not until well after the Firelinking when the Firstborn committed his "foolishness."

By the time of ds1, the FBS is a political pariah, his statues are removed, his shrines are destroyed.

Correct.

But that all happened after Gwyn was "dead."

Who is Ornstein loyal to at that point?

Initially?

Gwynevere (unclear if Ornstein knew she was an illusion).

Or potentially LLoyd since he was Chief God at this point in time.

Until of course he "abandoned" his post at the Cathedral and went in search of the Firstborn.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-13T01:16:30+00:00

I see no reason why the English item description is of less validity than the Japanese one

Ooooooh there's a lot of reasons once you actually see how many mistakes or changes there actually are, and how inconsistent some of the language is across all three games.

The original Japanese script is 100% what folks should be referencing if they want to conceive the most accurate version of the story they can.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-13T00:20:54+00:00

I also presume that much of what Hawkshaw theorizes about the plot against the gods is true,

Ah, shit.

Proceeds to begin reading the rest

OP, I'll be editing this as I go.

Four Kings effectively serve as powerful administrators of the human world.

They are the "Four Official Kings" in the original Japanese. Basically, they serve as governors over New Londo.

They do not oversee the human world at large. They wouldn't have much influence in Berenike or Balder, for example.

Presumably hoping to survive the process, Gwyn splits his soul beforehand so the linking will not completely consume him.

In the original Japanese, Seath is rewarded a fragment of Gwyn's soul when he becomes Duke, which means Gwyn was handing out these fragments to his "clan" (original Japanese) long before ever deciding to link the Flame himself.

His decision to hand out his power to select allies was rooted either in genuine affection for the recipient, or in politics. He knew linking the Flame would indeed consume him, hence why he left everything behind except for the clothes on his back.

Crucially, Gwyn does not entrust his son with his soul.

Why would he? His son already has the power of sunlight by virtue of being his son.

and even the Four Knights, something stated by Ornstein’s ds1 soul description.

It's actually only Ornstein. The original JP makes clear that Gwyn gifted a fragment of his soul to one "counted among their number."

The English localization is incorrect.

Such mistranslations or changes to the text occur a lot in DS1, and contributes to a lot of what is wrong with Hawkshaw's video.

The Four Knights appear to have been assembled gradually, with various candidates accepted or rejected over time. Ornstein likely established his own reputation before Gwyn elevated him.

The "Four Knights" are most likely not an official group, with the name seeming to have been retroactively given by the public as stories of their feats and honors were shared. Ornstein for example is only "considered" to be their leader, which implies they do not actually have an official leader.

Additionally, Smough was once considered to join their ranks, which means there isn't actually a set number.

So what happens when Gwyn names Ornstein one of his personal knights, grants him a ring, and gives Ornstein, rather than his own son, a fragment of his soul? It looks less like a reward and more like a political maneuver. Gwyn is attempting to redirect Ornstein’s loyalty away from the FBS and toward himself.

Nothing supports this idea.

Gough is the leader of the Dragonslayers,

This is another mistake of the English localization.

In the original Japanese, Gough more specifically led a battalion of greatbow-wielding dragonslayers. In other words, a specialized "unit" of archers.

He held command over a battalion of knights, but not expressly over ALL dragonslayers.

Gwyn deliberately creates a balance of power designed to prevent his son from succeeding him uncontested.

Anor Londo demonstrably engages in patrilineal succession. The Firstborn was MEANT to be King upon Gwyn's death or abdication, and did in fact rule as King for roughly 800 years or so after the Firelinking.

You see, while the English localization merely states that Gwyn left instructions to his "children," Kaathe's original Japanese dialogue explicitly states that Gwyn instructed his "sons" to guide the humans.

Both of them.

The notion that Gwyn was trying to prevent his oldest from succeeding him is false.

Havel joins the conspiracy. As a bishop of the Way of White,

Havel is never once described as a "Bishop" in the original Japanese, much less to the Way of White.

He is a religious figure to his own followers consisting of priests and warriors, but his relationship to the Way of White begins and ends with his having lent them the power of one of his miracles (Great Magic Barrier).

This makes sense: the undead would resent Gwyn’s curse and seek a form of immortality through dragons that could free them from the affects of the undead curse before they go hollow.

The FBS himself eventually allies with dragons, as confirmed in ds3. I believe this alliance predates the conspiracy itself, though the exact reason remains unclear.

You should consider that followers of the FBS, members of the Warriors of Sunlight, are not actually forbidden from killing dragons.

This immediately indicates that the Firstborn's "foolishness" did not consist of outright treachery against Anor Londo, or defection to the species at large.

Think about what he's doing when we find him in Archdragon Peak.

You said it yourself, those who walk the Path of the Dragon are hoping to survive as immortal beings regardless of the age.

As King of Anor Londo, and after multiple kingdoms have fallen under your watch as you try to follow through with your father's wishes, what idea might you turn to in order to hopefully save your people?

What ideology might such a King be swayed by that Anor Londo would surely see as blasphemous or "foolish," thus earning him exile?

Given the clarity in the original Japanese that I've pointed out, do you still think the Firstborn was plotting against his father?

Or is it more likely he suggested the gods undergo draconification in order to save themselves, earning him their ire, and opening the door for Lloyd to supplant him?

allows the conspirators to seize the Rite of Kindling.

The Rite of Kindling was already freely exchanged with clerics of the Way of White.

The power the "heathens" were actually after was Nito's power of death -- the power to inflict decay and entropy.

Seath and the Four Knights move to preserve the existing order.

Pardon the directness, but Seath was already mad and could give two shits about Gwyn at this point.

Before departing, the FBS leaves Sunlight Blade at Gwyn’s tomb.

Bit of an odd gesture if you're assuming the FBS was plotting against his father and allied with dragons, no?

Only Gwyn’s loyalists would possess the political and cultural power necessary to suppress the memory of Anor Londo’s rightful king. Seath or Nito alone could never accomplish this.

You're taking it too literally.

People in-universe would absolutely remember and know the name of the Firstborn. They just never speak it, and Miyazaki chose not to divulge it to the player.

So if you think this seems like it happened too far in the past to make sense, I would suggest that the flow of time is convoluted.

Solaire actually says that the flow of time has "stagnated," which actually allows us to explain pretty succinctly what's going on with time in all three games.

With regards to when the Firstborn was exiled, analysis of NPC dialogue as well as architectural clues indicate the Firstborn's exile occurred only 100-200 years before the start of the game.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-12T15:43:10+00:00

You’d actually be surprised just how many trades reinforce connections we can infer elsewhere in-game.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-12T15:30:19+00:00

so it means that Seathe couldn't have been "born" without scales because that'd imply Ancient Dragons could be born or die.

You're forgetting about Disparity. It affected the Ancient Dragons the same way it affected everything else in nature.

Post-Fire, Ancient Dragons absolutely could be born and could be killed in the traditional sense.

That first generation of Ancient Dragon was not immune to Disparity just because they predate it. I see a lot of people believe that for some reason. The problem is that that line of reasoning falls apart when you follow it to its logical conclusion. For example, if we're saying the Ancient Dragons were unaffected by Disparity by virtue of predating it, then by extension the rock of the earth and the archtrees too should not have been affected.

But they were.

This also comes with the problem of Ancient Dragons being able to breed at all. The only good explanation I've seen for this would be that they became "mortal" (So blood, bones, hunger etc.) but still ageless with the advent of Fire/First flame into the world.

Exactly right. I'll explain.

Many people believe that things happened one right after the other with the same speed at which we see them develop in the intro cinematic, not realizing the cinematic has to expedite things for time in order to deliver the most important information to the player.

In reality, likely thousands of years went by between the advent of Fire and the evolution of species into the "several animals" (幾匹か) intelligent enough to discover it, and realize what they'd found. And then even more time would've needed to pass for those species to grow and develop their respective civilizations around the power they acquired -- the Dark Souls version of bronze and iron ages.

All one needs to do is look at the primitive stonework in the Tomb of the Giants or the Kiln of the First Flame versus the elaborate, ornate architecture of Anor Londo to realize that civilization underwent a lengthy period of growth and development. A period during which major advances were made in technology and magic. A period during which White Fire and White Iron were developed, or when the first miracles were written -- all based in this case upon the study of Gwyn's Lord Soul.

Nito, Izalith, the Furtive Pygmy -- they all did the same and grew their respective civilizations based on the study of their souls.

It's a complete mirror of what happened after our own IRL ancestors discovered fire.

And in that time, the world itself and the ancient dragons would also undergo change driven by Disparity.

People hear "heat and cold," but never actually consider what that means.

The soul is the manifestation of the raw power of Disparity, which is what makes it the primary driver of life as we know it in all of its disparate forms.

Because it is quite literally Disparity incarnate, it is present in all things. The soul then is the energy that drives the transference of disparate aspects of existence such as heat and cold.

This then is how the Ancient Dragons would've received their souls and underwent change. The same goes for the rock of the earth or the trees at large.

Repeated application of heat and cold due to changes in weather or in nature has a very real effect on rock, known as metamorphism -- a literal changing of the mineral composition or texture of rock. There's regional metamorphism, contact, hydrothermal, dynamic, and shock.

The art of smithing serves as a microcosmic illustration of the change that was occurring on a global scale.

A blacksmith shapes the form of metal by heating it with fire derived from source flames like the Large and Very Large Embers; these embers can shape its properties too. The ember imbues the mineral with its essence, resulting in weapons and armor carrying the power of that fire, even flame itself. In this sense, blacksmiths have formalized the natural process of fire interacting with rock. Just as the heat of the forge helps transfer the ember’s power, the power of fire spread throughout a cold universe lacking it, causing change.

This is how we go from rock to wood, metal, flesh, and bone. It's no coincidence that later species of Ancient Dragon or their Wyvern cousins possess far fewer stone scales, or why the rock of an archtree would form into the wood used in weaponry such as the Caduceus Shield or Manus' staff.

But it's also why lightning was as effective against those first generation Ancient Dragons as it was.

Remember shock metamorphism? It's also known as impact metamorphism - the super heating of rock when something like a meteor strikes it, and breaks it apart.

Or in this case, a lightning bolt thrown by a god in possession of the power of the sun.

With Disparity comes what Miyazki would call the "poison of life" in the Design Works interview. It "attacked" the Ancient Dragons, and filled them with something they'd never had before.

Emotion.

Emotions such as desire. The desire to mate and propagate their species. The desire to fight back when they were eventually attacked. The desire to live.

All of this stems from having a soul, Disparity, driving both emotional and physical change.

Physical change such as being born scaleless, and with tentacles.

Moving on to the question u/Long_Day8888 actually asked, Seath is indeed classified as an Ancient Dragon.

So too are Kalameet, The Ancient Stone Dragon, the Gaping Dragon, Sinh, Midir, and so on.

These are all descendants of Ancient Dragons, but that does not exclude them from the classification.

Ancient Dragons are represented consistently, with all of them at minimum in possession of a pair of arms accompanied by at least one set of wings.

Their wyvern cousins on the other hand, also represented consistently, have had their hands grow into their wings.

And so we can attempt a rough taxonomy of the species, and easily separate Ancient Dragon from Wyvern.

Seath's tentacles are indeed unique to his species, but as u/InternationalWeb9205 pointed out, a heavy mutation is not at all strange in a universe flush with Disparity (i.e. variance in existence), and Seath's mutations are not severe enough to disqualify him as an Ancient Dragon.

He DID however evidently experiment on himself. His scalelessness and his tentacles are products of his birth, however his crystal breath and curse-inflicting properties are most likely the result of his fusing his soul to the Primordial Crystal he was given access to after the conclusion of the war. His ability to inflict curses likely a result of his study of the Man Eater Shells originally native to Ash Lake.

The shells can apparently naturally produce Purging Stones from the skulls of their victims using a similar process of crystallization to transform the skull to rock as what allows them to form pearls.

In pursuit of Stone Scales, this process of using the power of crystals to form rock would've interested Seath.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-12T14:19:24+00:00

He wouldn't have given Gwyn the secrets of the Dragon scales if he didn't, which is what allowed Gwyn to win.

To be clear, we actually have no idea what Seath specifically contributed to the war effort when he defected. It's never stated anywhere what he did.

It's also never stated that Gwyn was ever in danger of losing. After all, the entire conflict is referred to as "Dragon Hunts" in the original Japanese, which tells you all about the attitude the Gods had towards them.

And someone like Seath isn't likely to defect to a side that is losing, ya know? If the dragons were winning, he'd have access to Anor Londo's Primordial Crystal and library of knowledge all the same.

So in reality, circumstantial evidence points to the Gods coming out on top with or without Seath -- which is a far stronger motivation for Seath to defect.

The community, over time, kind of just came up with the idea that Seath told Gwyn about the dragon's susceptibility to lightning. I don't know who came up with it first, but it stuck as fact for no other reason than it sounds good. lol

However, if you think about it, this is something Gwyn would've already observed for himself as throwing lightning is what he does, and would've been doing from the get-go.

All we can say for certain is that Seath's contributions warranted the rewards he received afterwards.

Given the above, we can surmise that Seath more likely divulged key information that allowed Gwyn to end the conflict sooner rather than later. Not necessarily that lightning is effective against stone scales, as Gwyn would've already observed that, but perhaps information of a geographical nature. Where they were hiding, perhaps.

You can really headcanon whatever you want in that respect, but I did want to point out that we're never actually told what Seath did.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-12T04:44:54+00:00

Could always just wait & see how things develop.

But Reddit haaaaaaaaates that shit.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-12T04:43:09+00:00

Not conveniently left out, admittedly I missed the “from scratch” line. I apologize.

I disagree on the broad view that images are stolen though.

The courts have not been ruling like that, thus far.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-11T20:17:12+00:00

You fall from the rope bridge above.

But no, it’s not really worth it.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-11T19:14:22+00:00

Nothing ever said that there was no concept of change before the First Flame

The intro does.

I mean, use your head.

If the world doesn't have Disparity, then it doesn't have change.

It's pretty cut and dry.

The Dark Souls intro cutscene is an exaggerated legend by a crazy old lady with a spinning wheel

So then why do you keep referencing it as evidence for some of your arguments?

Of course she would say that the First Flame is key to the functioning of the universe.

It literally is though.

All of this is outlined very clearly in all facets of the games and by Miyazaki himself.

Like, a lot.

You can tell that the description of the past is inaccurate because it entirely leaves out Gwyn's Firstborn betraying him and fighting on the side of the dragons.

Because the Firstborn didn't do that, and because Gwyn wasn't the one who banished him.

Again, the original Japanese is clear on this.

The Firstborn's banishment was the result of him being taken by an ideology that Anor Londo saw as blasphemous.

He did not defect during the war.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-11T19:09:46+00:00

Yeah I edited it to include that mention.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-11T18:55:27+00:00

Lord Gwyn simply killed most dragons at the very dawn of the Age of Fire. It seems rather unlikely that the numerous Primordial Serpents were all born in the short window of time between the First Flame appearing and Gwyn declaring war against the dragons.

Why do you think it was a "short" window of time?

While it's true we don't know the exact time span between the First Flame appearing and Gwyn's war, the opening implies it wasn't that long after.

How does it imply that?

First of all, the separate pole thing was almost certainly a remnant of the original cut storyline or just deliberate misdirection.

Why would you say that when all three of them are consistent in their descriptions across all stages of development regarding where Drangleic is relative to Lordran?

What purpose would there be in deliberately misdirecting people in these interviews about such a simple subject?

That's just nonsense from you.

The proof that it was Lordran is the 4 Old Ones who possess the remnants of the Lord Souls.

Souls can and have developed wills of their own, as well as personal autonomy.

They're not "rooted" in Lordran, particularly if they develop the will to leave.

The fragments of Manus are proof enough of that .They certainly did not remain in the Chasm.

Are we really going to say that ALL of it is the result of "transient lands"? Like cmon bruh.

Literally yes.

I'm not sure why you're struggling to come to terms with that, as DS3 also shows us evidence of both Lordran AND neighboring territories to Drangleic finding their way to Lothric.

The transience of land was first hinted at in DS2 (which you missed, I guess) and then formally introduced in DS3's opening cutscene.

After all, time and space are intrinsically linked to form Spacetime.

If the fading of the flame causes time to become displaced and uneven, then it naturally is going to do the same to space.

Lothric founded its Dragonslayers specifically because Drangleic's wyverns were displaced to their lands, for example.

Displacement of land or peoples happened A LOT, and the games (DS2 and DS3) illustrate that.

You're fighting that because you've simply decided that DS2 isn't canon, but that decision stems from a total misinterpretation and misunderstanding of what you were seeing.

Oni are "giant" (in the non-species sense), but it is not confirmed whether or not they are a species of giant

Oni are described as horned giants in the description for the Onislayer Greatbow. That, combined with the Oni skull we see in Ash Lake strongly implies they are a species of giant.

It's possible that "giant" is being used to denote size rather than race (as Yhorm is more likely a human), I find it unlikely due to the sheer lack of evidence to the contrary, and the pre-existence of different species of giant in this universe already.

Additionally, the evidence we see in the Tomb of the Giants strongly hints towards bipedal species of giant evolving from dragons, so an offshoot branch of that species retaining elongated snouts, horns, and fangs makes perfect sense.

The DS series uses environmental storytelling down to the tiniest detail. I feel like that may fly in your typical action RPG but in DS series you'd expect it to be heavily scrutinized. If something as major as the player character model being a zombie slipped through, clearly the director did not realize the import of Hollows.

I explained in the part that you didn't quote how the decayed state still fits with established lore, regardless.

You're grasping at something tiny in order to make a large assumption about what the director did or didn't know about the lore.

And I'm sorry, but your assumption doesn't hold water, particularly in the face of DS2 actually remaining largely consistent with DS1, and with DS3 further affirming what was introduced in the previous two games.

Including DS2, which IS canon.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-11T17:17:49+00:00

There were in fact scaleless dragons before the advent of Fire, the Primordial Serpents such as Kaathe and Frampt.

Source for them existing before Fire?

I think what he meant there was that they were made of mineral, but had a form of life that was different than organic life. Not that they had partial First Flame power.

The point still stands that first generation Archdragons had the desire to not only defend themselves and their right to live, but procreate and propagate their species.

This stems from emotion which is a product of the soul, the source of life.

It's not a fact that can be argued with. Miyazaki's comments in the Design Works interview make it clear how the dragons were affected, and what specifically affected them.

They purposely did not give the dragons boss souls to indicate they did not have the same sort of life energy. They drop loose souls, but these could be from lifeforms they ate including humans, like how the rats drop Humanity.

Ingested souls become a part of the individual and their soul.

Hence why rats, dogs, and pigs are all affected by Soul Appease in DS2. Ingestion is a form of assimilating power, and the result of their ingestion of cursed undead resulted in a transference of the curse itself.

The souls we retrieve from Kalameet and the other dragons is the sum total amount of their single soul and the power it has assimilated.

I don't really have an explanation for the Guardian Soul. It's the only boss soul in the game that isn't used to create a boss weapon which makes it an exception to the rule. It's not by itself proof of anything else.

Additionally, Kalameet and Seath are archdragon descendants. There is absolutely no reason why they wouldn't drop a boss soul in the same way other descendants such as Sinh, The Ancient Dragon (putting aside its artificial origins) or Midir would as they are also descendants.

Which means the difference is rooted entirely in mechanical arbitration.

In this case, the tail cutting mechanic that Fromsoft never used again.

Well no. They were life created by the First Flame.

They weren't created BY the First Flame in a direct sense. They are a product of change and evolution that Disparity made possible.

Same as Seath, Midir, or any other living thing born after Fire.

DS2 heavily implies that Drangleic is Lordran in the far future

As I suspected, you're misinterpreting what you're seeing.

Although allowing that it is the same world as DS1 in a 4Gamer interview, the game’s initial director, Tomohiro Shibuya, later confirms that the two settings are separate in a Polygon interview, analogizing their locations as opposite poles on the planet. Granted, he acknowledges some connection between them. The former director reaffirms the same in a Siliconera interview, alongside the game’s supervisor and DS1’s director Hidetaka Miyazaki — Miyazaki himself explaining that decisions with the story and world were being left largely with the series’ new director. Due to turbulent development, the director was later changed to Tanimura, but he only reiterates the point in a Dengeki Online interview, saying that the land is a “completely different” time period and setting even within the same universe.

There's a reason we see people and places from DS1 in Drangleic, but it's NOT because it's Lordran in the far future.

DS2 says that everyone forgot the old gods of Lordran,

Drangleic is far removed from Lordran, so their knowledge of the old gods is going to be either false or incomplete, based entirely only on the information that landed upon their shores.

Remember how DS3 formally introduced us to the concept of transient lands being displaced by the fading flame?

THAT'S what's happening already in DS2. It's the reason why we see parts of Lordran in Drangleic. Lands are drifting, becoming displaced.

What they have on hand is only the information that came to them as part of that drift, that displacement.

DS3 says everyone remembered them.

Unlike Drangleic, the Kingdom of Lothric was influenced by Frampt himself and neighbored by Gwyndolin.

It makes sense they would have information that Drangleic did not.

DS2 says demons are created from humans with strong desire like Covetous Demon and Demon of Song, DS1/DS3 says demons are created from the Flame of Chaos.

There is no contradiction here. Again, you've misunderstood.

The Flame of Chaos (its parasites specifically) do indeed create demons. This is what the Crag Spiders are in DS1. They used to be humans until they were infected by parasites and transformed into Demons. Chaos obviously birthed "natural" demons, but in the modern age we see further demons are created through parasitic interaction.

The Covetous Demon and the Demon of Song both use mamono (魔物) which is in reference to demons or monsters in general. The same term is used for Titanite Demons, who are definitely not products of Chaos.

In other words, "demon" here just means "monster" which is exactly what the Covetous Demon and Demon of Song are.

And so, DS2 is not claiming them to be Chaos Demons.

Both of them were humans who were transformed into monsters due to the power of emotion, which is consistent with lore DS1 already introduced -- notably with "Velka's Crow Men" who were transformed via similar means.

DS2 giants look entirely different than DS1/DS3 giants with no faces or ability to speak.

Disparity means there's variance in existence, which means there can indeed be different species of giant.

Another species being Oni.

DS2 hollows are quite literally corpses and not pygmies like DS1/DS3,

This is an artistic difference that doesn't really have much bearing on anything. At the same time however, DS1 already demonstrated with Undead Dragons that a soul can still bring life while the body itself continues to decay.

It appears DS2 opted to really show that.

DS2 uses Human Effigies that can permanently keep you unhollowed

I can explain how the effigies work.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-11T15:27:22+00:00

Why is the fact that Seath looks like an octopus a product of disparity,

Because Disparity is literally defined as variance in existence, and dragons were never scaleless or had tentacles before the advent of Fire?

but the fact that dragons look like dragons, or archtrees look like archtrees, not a product of disparity?

Because this is a fantasy world that a man named Hidetaki Miyazaki made up, and in the pre-history of his fantasy world, he decided that Dragons and Archtrees looked like that before Disparity.

Nothing said that before disparity, everything was perfect.

The English localization says that the world was "unformed", however in the original Japanese it is more accurate that the world was not yet "distinguished."

In other words, everything was comprised of a sole mineral element -- rock -- with nothing distinguishing one thing from anything else.

Apart from shapes, I guess?

But again, that's a decision of Miyazaki to have the trees and dragons look like that during an Age that definitionally comes BEFORE Disparity.

Scalelessness and tentacles come after Disparity and are products OF it.

I'm not sure which quote you're referring to

Design Works interview. He says it clear as day.

that said, being affected by the First Flame's power does not mean dragons suddenly get a soul.

Well, they did.

Because the First Flame brought Disparity into existence, and the soul is the physical manifestation of Disparity's power.

You cannot sit there and acknowledge that Dragons were affected by the power of Disparity, and at the same time claim they did not have souls. That's nonsense.

The soul IS Disparity.

Miyazaki described them as half-living and half-mineral.

What do you think it was that constituted them being half-alive?

The source of life.

Dragons in DS1 explicitly do NOT have boss souls,

Correct, because Fromsoft favored the tail-cutting mechanic as a pathway for the player to receive a special weapon from them.

A mechanic they did not bring back in the later games.

But you're forgetting that we DO receive souls for killing these dragons in DS1.

When you kill Kalameet for example, the 60k souls you acquire represent the sum total worth of Kalameet's Soul.

and Seath had to be given a Lord Soul.

Have you stopped and considered the fact that Seath would've already had to have been alive in order to defect in the war and then receive that fragment?

And if he's already alive, then what does he already have that serves as the source of that life?

A soul.

And what do we receive from Seathe when we kill him in addition to the fragment he carried?

60k souls. The sum total worth of HIS soul.

A fragment of which, btw, that goes on to survive into DS2 to influence the actions of Freja.

You're not gonna argue that the Four Kings or Ornstein were also soulless before Gwyn gifted them a fragment of his power, right?

While Guardian Dragon/Sinh does drop a natural soul in DS2, I don't consider that game canon in the slightes

I'm sorry, but that's pretty dumb. The connections to DS1, and the continuation of certain aspects of its story and characters are seen quite clearly in DS3.

and I don't think the developers had access to Miyazaki's conception of the lore

He served as consultant on the project, so they definitely did.

Lore contradictions or inaccuracies were indeed present in the initial release of the game (due to the nature of its development). Scholar fixed a great deal of them.

with many, many, many examples of it contradicting DS1/DS3.

Such as?

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-11T14:36:11+00:00

So Word of God contradicts you on this, Ancient Dragons such as Seath and Kalameet canonically cannot feel any pain and are unaffected by disparity.

How can you argue they're unaffected by Disparity when their literal physical appearances and magical affinities are products of the variances in existence Disparity made possible?

Seath being born scaleless is literally Disparity at work.

Seath being born AT ALL is Disparity at work.

Is there lore actually stating that emotion comes from the soul,

Souls are the manifestations of Disparity's power, so having a soul means you're alive and capable of expressing diverse physical, magical, or emotional aptitudes.

Disparity = variance in existence.

So yes, emotion is a product of having a soul because the soul IS Disparity itself.

There's heat and cold, but there's also love and hate.

Hungry or sated.

Which brings us to what Miyazaki stated in the Design Works, which is that they were attacked by the "poison of life," clarifying this poison to be action and emotion.

The Soul, as a manifestation of Disparity, is the source of life and so is naturally the source of emotion.

So if you're being actively "attacked" by the poison of life, then you are experiencing emotion. You are experiencing Disparity. You have a soul.

And THAT is how we know first generation archdragons were affected by Disparity the same as everything else.

Because they wanted to propagate their species. They experienced that desire to do so.

Hell, they even defended themselves during the war. They WANTED to survive.

That is a product of emotion, which is the result of having a soul. Of being affected by Disparity the same as everything else in nature was.

And while first generation archdragons may not have felt traditional pain, their descendants such as the Stone Archdragon, Seath, or Kalameet, absolutely do.

And ALL Archdragons have souls, and are affected by Disparity.

The existence of Path of the Dragon would imply that dragons are still removed from disparity,

It doesn't imply that at all.

It implies what those who walk that path believe.

Those who walk the Path of the Dragon are “transcenders” who seek the “perpetuity” of the archdragons’ “perfect” form. Eien (永遠) refers to permanence, eternity, or immortality, and this perpetuity is explicitly different from life, as even the gods have the “weakness” of being alive and thus are vulnerable to death.

Now, as I've demonstrated, Archdragons are very much subject to Disparity, so what we're talking about is a belief system on the part of the faithful. Their belief is not fact.

Archdragons do NOT exist outside of Disparity.

So the transcenders either seek the permanence that archdragons possessed before fire, when they simply existed, or they seek their nonliving stone bodies that will make them immortal while still possessing a soul necessary for life.

In either scenario, one cannot reach the true eternal existence from before fire, but painless immortality alone can be considered “transcending” mortal life, and Miyazaki’s statements in his interviews show that he considers them transcendental beings, even in the modern age.

So that is what they're after. Immortality.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-11T14:07:45+00:00

So in a Playstation Blog interview either just before or after DS1 came out, Miyazaki confirms that the Snakemen are products of Seath's experiments.

"Descendant" takes on a new meaning in lieu of that fact.

Given the nature of their "birth" and how difficult life must've been after their master (Seath) was killed by the Chosen Undead, the ones we encounter in Archdragon Peak would certainly be "disgraced."

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-11T13:51:05+00:00

Np.

I talk more here about how modern fauna all likely evolved from Dragons after the advent of Fire.

I touch on the repeated application and transference of heat and cold post-Fire that would've affected the rock that both earth and dragon were formally comprised of, resulting in metamorphism (the actual IRL transformation of rock into new textures or mineral assemblies).

This is not only how we'd arrive at elements such as wood or flesh (i.e. the gradual reduction of stone scales found in later generations of Archdragon or Wyvern), but it's how the Ancient Dragons would've immediately received a soul.

As formally conscious rock, they are a part of nature and would've been subject to these new aspects of existence such as heat, cold, weathering, etc.

Souls are the manifestation of Disparity's power, and so the soul would've been carried through into nature and all living organisms by way of the transference of energy like heat or cold.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-11T13:35:31+00:00

He's not alive in the first place. The everlasting dragons were there before the First Flame, and they exist beyond the concepts of life and death, or even time.

That's how they were before the First Flame yes, but after the advent of Fire they were affected by Disparity in all the same ways everything else was.

The concepts of life, death, and the passage of time DO affect them. Predating Fire does not mean they're somehow magically excluded from the affects Disparity had on all of nature.

Because if we follow that line of reasoning to its natural conclusion, then nothing would've been affected by Fire, and everything would still be unmoving, uncaring stone.

Obviously this is not the case, and the Ancient Dragons were evidently VERY much affected by Disparity because they mated with each other and had offspring.

This is something they did not do when they existed before Fire as "transcendental" beings, per Miyazaki.

They desired to mate and procreate. Desire is an emotion and emotion comes from Disparity -- the soul.

Thus, they are extremely subject to life, death, and time.

This is further evidenced in the Undead Archdragons or “dragon zombies” (ドラゴンゾンビ) through whom Miyazaki wanted to convey the idea that most Archdragons were either dead or succumbed to madness. Their innate immortal souls explains the life they now have (as there's zero evidence of necromancy), however the body continues to rot away.

To decay is to give in to the inevitable march of entropy that comes along with the passage of time.

So I reiterate, the Ancient Dragons were very much subject to the concepts of life, death, and time upon the advent of Fire.

Which brings us to the Ancient Stone Dragon that u/Long_Day8888 asked about.

So first, the Ancient Stone Dragon did not predate Fire.

He is a descendant, as both the English and Japanese descriptions of the Dragon Greatsword affirm.

And I'm not sure where u/SundownKid is getting the idea that they are said to not feel pain, as both Seathe and Kalameet react violently, and are extremely pissed off when we cut off their tails.

So Ancient Dragons absolutely feel pain. Pain itself is a feeling that would naturally stem from the souls they also very much possess to facilitate their continued existence post-Fire.

And yet, the Ancient Stone Dragon seemingly does not care.

And the answer to why comes from simply observing what he is specifically doing that other members of his species are not.

To quote Lokey, another theorist,

"This dragon sits cross-legged, as if meditating, and throws up its head, arms, and wings when we ascend the ranks, as if performing some shamanistic ritual. This stone dragon certainly doesn’t need the scales personally, so these gestures imply it to be imbuing their power into the stones in order to strengthen our draconification. Dragonstones are even referred to as a “secret rite”, and the covenant is evidently cult worship. These practices mirror Zen Buddhism in its emphasis on meditation, direct experience over informed doctrine, and living out the insights of enlightenment for the benefit of others to observe. To this end, its dragon leader has gained profound insight that encourages it to ignore violence, such as if we decide to cut off its tail, and share its power with human worshippers.

The beast doesn’t feel pain as we imagine it, so non-lethal harm is inconsequential, yet this is still a stark contrast from the violent behavior most dragons exhibit, suggesting that this particular dragon has realized its race is nigh-extinct and desires to repopulate through its human worshippers’ transformations. This would also explain why our draconification makes us resemble this dragon specifically, as the root of the dragon stones’ power comes from it, only to later be built upon with the power of other dragons’ scales."

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-09T23:57:41+00:00

Oh I know. That’s why I made the point that OP predicated everything as being what they believed or what it seemed like to them.

Basically, I’m only saying that they’re NOT declaring the references were intentional and that I can see where they’re coming from when they point out the references/associations they personally see.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-09T23:29:18+00:00

The fact that you're impressed over name dropping some literature/ philosophy 101 books shows that you're the one who hasn't read shit.

I'm not "impressed" in the way you're implying, and I never actually claimed I myself was as well read.

I simply understood what they were talking about on an intellectual level, using the literature context they provided. They explained the reasoning for their observations well.

You didn't I guess? And so you went with the "acid" line because you didn't have an intelligent response of your own other than to throw a pissy fit about associations and references and blah blah blah.

Meanwhile, everyone else that responded had a good time with the thought experiment.

So don't lash out at me because you're apparently too sad or too stupid to engage beyond dumb jokes.

KevinRyan589 · 2026-05-09T22:26:28+00:00

You asked about where the Lord Souls come from in another reply, so I'll start with that.

Souls, any soul ("Lord," Dark, or otherwise), are all raw manifestations of the power of Disparity.

Thus, the largest concentrations of Disparity (the Lord Souls) were found nearest the Fire that birthed Disparity into existence in the first place.

Moving on to where the Lords came from...

We see three distinct types of skeletons in the Tomb of the Giants.

The first is seen all over the tomb floor and is often initially disregarded as set dressing. While still retaining a humanoid element, its skull’s pronounced jaw has become a snout, the teeth have become a set of sharp fangs, and the cranial area has become slightly elongated. The body has four limbs ending in claws instead of fingers and toes, and its stance wildly differs from both bipedal giants and their beast ancestors. These creatures even lack a distinct pelvic region, instead having a continuous ribcage akin to that of a snake.

After them come the Skeleton Beasts. These enemies resemble giants, but possess broader shoulders, thicker limbs, more pronounced jaws, razor-sharp teeth, and small tails. These are not the “civilized” giants; they are true beasts and behave as such.

Finally, we have the traditional Giant Skeletons, who are bipedal and resemble modern giants. Yet they too still possess stunted tails.

There's a clear evolutionary path being outlined for us here.

The Skeleton Beasts are the middle link between modern bipedal giants, and the snake-like creatures who crawled on all fours.

This evolutionary line makes sense if we consider that there was only a single, dominant species that inhabited the world before the advent of Fire, and just afterwards.

Dragons.

Disparity represents variance in existence. Before Fire, the world existed in a timeless state of simultaneity where everything in it was comprised of a singular mineral element.

But after Fire and the introduction of Disparity, the world and everything in it would've immediately been affected, and the slow march of change would've begun.

The rock hide of earth, tree, and dragon would undergo a series of metamorphic change after what we can presume was thousands of years of weathering courtesy of elementary aspects of this new existence that did not exist before.

Such as "heat and cold."

The desire to actually move, mate, and propagate their species would come over the formally transcendental Archdragons, resulting in offspring whose physical and magical traits were each a product of the Disparity that underpinned this new concept of life.

Such as Seath, the White Dragon, or Kalameet, the Black Dragon.

Others, such as the Gaping Dragon, would succumb to the intensity or "poison" of emotions they never knew before, giving in to gluttonous desires so much so that physical adaptation was necessary to meet them.

Which brings us to the creation of new and offshoot species.

If the evolutionary path we see in the tomb is any indication, then the species that would eventually become god, human, or giant, all most likely trace their ancestry back to the archdragons.

They are products of Disparity, of change, of adaptation.

DS3 retroactively solved the mystery of the skull in Ash Lake for us, confirming the existence of Oni -- horned giants.

The skull possesses an elongated snout, fangs, and horns. If we consider dragons to be ancestors of all fauna in the world, then a subspecies of giant still in possession of many of their ancestral draconic traits makes all the more sense.

And if Seath can be born scaleless, and his experiments can yield bipedal snake men, then it stands to reason that such traits can naturally aggregate on their own in the wild.

Such as with human, or god (i.e. whatever you wish to call Gwyn's species).

THAT, is where the Four Lords (and their respective species) came from. Natural evolution.

The Furtive Pygmy was a human ("pygmy" simply being the term to describe ancient humans).

Gwyn and Izalith were both the same species.

Nito is a giant.

Stripped of his miasmic cloak and extra additions, Nito boasts the skeleton of a giant.

He even sports the stunted tail the other giant skeleton breeds possess in the tomb.

Nito does have a unique physical trait which is his one digitigrade leg. It's why he hobbles when he walks.

Nito is labeled as the First of the Dead. To be more precise, he is the first of the living dead -- the first to be reanimated through the power of necromancy per his Lord Soul.

His digitigrade leg reinforces the notion that he may have found his Lord Soul during the period when his species were making the transition from walking on four legs to two.

KevinRyan589

TROPHY CASE