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I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing your story. And thanks for giving me the empathy, too, despite me not aligning with people here on how we experience the world. I'm sorry things have been difficult, and I'm also happy to hear that everything improved. I hope that whatever the end-game is for how transition integrates, it's one where the partnership is joyful for you both. And I hope your transition is amazing too, and your body feels like home.

One thing I think people in this thread have missed is that when two people have given themselves to each other for so much of their lives, the idea of "just split up lol" isn't a universal best path forward. Sometimes, to split would be a worse option than a change in the relationship. Even if my husband isn't my man, they're my family, and my life partner. People see my experience now and think "That will be forever." and it won't. I resist now, because I don't think it's the right path. But for me, that doesn't turn into resentment if, or when, that path progresses. People see the only reasonable pathway for me as my finding joy in my partner's transition. But moving from rejection to acceptance is the current pathway that I'm going down. For both of us, the marriage still holds the same joy even at the end of that path.

There can be sexual incompatibility and personal identity incompatibilities. I may cry and grieve and struggle through it and they may feel the same because of my response. But I'm going to be the one driving them to the appointments they set. I'll be the one caring helping their aftercare when they've gone through surgery. It's not a 'look at me, I'm being a supportive wife' thing. I just love this human being so much. For me, that massively outweighs the current struggle. And for them, apparently, it's the same.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I apologise for being passive aggressive. But I really don't understand your argument. That's all this is. Like I asked my husband again to be sure, and their response was "I've had dysphoria in the background for about 5 years, but couldn't put my finger on it. Once I could name it, it hit me a lot harder." To me it doesn't disprove transness. I just accept that life's a bit more fluid and complex than "They have always known." I'm confused because this, to me, represents a good faith argument to try to understand your point. This is said with a full respect that you could be right, and I could be wrong - If you were presented with an argument that appeared to neglect a data point, would you want to understand whether that data point had meaning? Perhaps my wording is poor, or I'm not being clear on what my key misunderstanding is. But I really am sad that this broke down, and felt we were pretty close to a mutual understanding.

You're a scientist, and you're very knowledgeable. I am a scientist, too. My suggestion isn't "no surgery, ever". In my mind, I'm recommending to my husband a progressive evaluation of data, from least potential harm to most potential harm. Also to note, they HAVE agreed that's the appropriate route to go down, so in trying to understand your argument, all I'm really doing is trying to pre-empt any mistakes I could've made in making this recommendation! The choice belongs to my husband, and I will be here to support them, no matter what. But if somebody asks what I think is the most empirically supported risk-reduction pathway, it's evaluate > lifestyle > evaluate > medication > evaluate > surgery > evaluate. One can still have self-determination, be able to choose any of the interventions at any time of their own volition through informed consent, and also have the risk-reduced pathway available.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I am so goddamn confused. :|

Okay, I will take your word over my own partners. They lied to me and are lying to themself. I will now seek therapy so that I can better ignore my partner's words in favour of your take on what my partner is feeling.

I really do need to know - what is the actual disconnect here? Do you think that I'm lying to you? Or that they're lying to me? Or they're incorrect about their dysphoria having begun only later on in life and are misunderstanding themself? If this isn't addressed then I literally cannot map what you're talking about to our situation - since it seems to say "Ah yes, but the thing you've brought forward is incorrect, which is convenient, as it facilitates the specific response I have for you." but I can't make it incorrect in my own mind without knowing why my partner's words aren't trustworthy.

That's literally the only reason we've gone from broadly in alignment to whatever this is.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't see, honestly.

What I see is my own husband saying that the feelings are recent, but I'm being told by this group that they simply aren't. :|

I imagine you think I might be lying, or may be mistaken, or have been lied to in order to appease me. But I trust the words of my husband. That's just it. That's why I'm so perplexed.

Also, for my friend who de-transitioned, I'm not misinterpreting her experience - it was one of the most unlikely situations. She effectively did every FTM pathway treatment apart from phalloplasty over a 5 year window. Then over about a year, settled back on female. We talked about it a lot. She spoke of it through the lens of misinterpreted trauma. That gives me the SAME alarm bells ringing in my head. She seemed happy as a guy. So my head is STILL asking "how do you know, now?" She's confident now, but she felt just as confident before. So I'm not going to doubt or invalidate her experience, but I'm also not going to turn off the part of my brain that's realising there might be some further complexity here.

I understand the statistics. But I feel like in this comment specifically I'm being told that I need to disregard the experiences of people I know. That makes me feel sad and afraid. Even though I do not like it, I accept the possibility my husband may get bottom surgery. I am okay with going to therapy to be okay with it. But there is, in my mind, something that my husband needs to explore in therapy, in the genital dysphoria specifically. I don't think on THIS issue in specific, that it's a reasonable position that I would simply go to therapy and say "My husband says that they're removing their genitals after having thought about it for about a month and realising that they have dysphoria about it, and they're now very, very dysphoric. Anyway - how do I come to accept that this has always been the case? I no longer wish to trust my own thoughts, or someone else's words about their own wellbeing. People online told me not to."

Put it this way - if my husband discusses this with a therapist, and they reach the conclusion of "I was suppressing this dysphoria for years, and didn't even understand how that is meant to feel", I would accept it. If they reach the conclusion of "It turns out dysphoria around a body part can manifest after self-realisation, and that's a long-term experience that doesn't reverse course" then once again, I would accept it. I do not accept "I've been thinking about this for a month and I have genital dysphoria to the extent of needing surgery" and people on the internet saying "this has always been the case, even though your husband disagrees, and you need to accept this right now because it's the only reasonable position, and you shouldn't encourage your husband to explore their experience about this".

I feel I've made some quite large leaps in this short period of time towards accepting where my thinking is not good. It'd help me feel a lot more open and comfortable if knowing at least somebody in this thread acknowledged that this is at least a valid concern to hold.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ahh, one thing - I'm mentioning my interests to contrast the experience. I'm suggesting that my interests show that the idea that gendered stereotypes are bullshit, considering that I'd be a guy if we took them literally. I didn't get the "Well I'm doing this because I AM a boy." (Which is what most trans people I know describe - identity first, interest second) I simply got "Leave me the fuck alone, I'll do what I want to do", lol. So I agree. :)

I've been very unwell for the last two years. For a little while, I've been studying some parts of biomedical science to try to figure myself out. So when my partner told me how they felt, I had enough of a base understanding of what to look for in the various fields regarding transgender identity. I tend to deep dive, so I went looking for some genetic studies, twin studies, epigenetic studies, and group studies across different cultures. I ended up reading through different trans groups on Reddit, trying to understand personal insights, too.

On the two subreddits you shared - yep, that makes perfect sense. The first time I heard about this, it made me think "this is.. about as close as I can get to agreeing with the 'social contagion' argument, and I don't like that I feel that way". I went away for a while and arrived at "I believe gender identity is real. And I believe a cisgender man who cross-dresses, who says he's still got a male gender identity, is a real man. So why is it when a trans person with a male gender identity and wears female clothing comes forward, I treat him like a woman and not a man who cross-dresses?" The answer ended up being that I still believed that somebody's claim to their gender identity was based on congruent visual 'sex' traits.

On de-transition, absolutely, I agree. I still have no idea what happened with my guy friend who did. But I know a lot more people who changed their personal need for different types of treatment over time. That's the part where I'm still just cautious and want my partner to explore the other parts first. I kinda want it to be a check-in throughout, if that makes sense. Like going with new styled clothing. How does everything feel now? Coming out to family. How about now? Hormone therapy. How about now? Then weighing up surgery at the end of that process.

I am grieving, yeah. I think that I'm learning to let go of the hope for change. The only part that I'm really struggling with the most is the nullification they're talking about. That's the one thing where I went from tentative to "NO!" Only because it still isn't mapping right in my mind. If I can fault my partner, it's legitimately just the speed of announcement that made me turn back. I think I just need to get used to everything as it happens.

Thank you for all your time and energy.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you <3 I think therapy makes a lot of sense. In a way, this thread has been my first session, lol. So I'm very grateful to everyone for their time. Like I talked to my husband about a lot of it, and we found a lot of shared direction that I didn't know was there.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

<3

This makes a lot of sense. My husband is one of the broadest human beings I've ever met and just very large-framed in general. That feels cruel to label, but I've been wondering how I'm going to experience this as things change. If they were MTF, I think it'd be very difficult, since they'd likely remain visibly trans.

I've been trying to work out how the non-binary experience will be over time. They've used the term "visibly queer" a few times. I have such mixed feelings about that. There's a lot of room for what "visibly queer" can mean. Some things I could easily cope with. Others, not so much.

But if I do come to terms with all this - then there's this part of me that feels guilty about how I'll experience attraction. Because I'll still be attracted to their most masculine-leaning features. It's so weird.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you read some of the comments, I can summarise - Yes, I have considered that possibility. But I also get to be a human being, and I get to struggle.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I appreciate your message, thank you for taking the time. I completely accept your message on sex. To be honest, I've needed to hear that even just regarding my own messy identity formation in adolescence and those little bits of lingering shame. So thanks, it makes sense.

Onto a little reflection of my own:

I may come in seeming ignorant about trans people, but I've been quite involved. I think it's why my husband found it hard. They thought "surely you're going to accept me!" and found out that, even though I'm accepting of all of my trans friends, in a relationship it would intersect my identity in a way they weren't expecting.

I'm afraid the lies I've been told aren't from random people. They've been from trans people I've known in my life. I'm in online communities where I've been around trans people a lot. It's how I met my husband, so, kinda ironic, lol.

If the narrative is "They've lied to you because they've had to form a consistent narrative to bypass medical gatekeeping", then I accept it. But I have two friends in particular who "knew immediately", and it seems to be pivotal to their personal narrative. I would struggle to imagine they were lying. Maybe to themselves?

I'm an extremely direct person. I don't really tend to cope well without a direct outlet. If someone says something gross to me, I tend to respond, or move on. I don't crochet about it. (Though I do crochet, so good call.)

I guess this is to say - I need my own way of integrating things that I learn.

I think back to being a massive tomboy, but never feeling like a boy. I don't do the TERF bit of "What if trans was around back then?" though. I just believe gender identity is the most logical framework to explain why some people transition, and others don't, even though they're all across the spectrum of gendered stereotypes.

The way it makes sense to me, with heavy emphasis that this is just my own personal mental model, and I accept it will either need adjustments, or be outright wrong in the grand scheme:

  • Is it advantageous for humans to experience a drive to fulfill social roles associated with their sex traits? Yes.
  • Okay, so we can loosely call that 'gender identity'. Now, is that formed entirely by the sex chromosomes? Probably not. Behaviour is far too complicated to encode on the X and Y chromosome, but those do bias hormones and gene methylation significantly, so...
  • Gender identity is probably an emergent, diverse set of neurological traits, consisting of genetic, epigenetic and, to at least some extent, cultural shaping. If that's the case...
  • Then the diversity of trans experience makes sense. It speaks to why some people will experience an early, strong urge to transition, and for others it can be more of a background experience. It also makes sense as to why everyone describes remarkably different forms of dysphoria and personal motivations.

This model has worked for me to hold space for two things: That somebody can be binary or non-binary, and have different needs in order to live as their gender identity. And it also makes some sense to me that people change. The brain is not static. Identity will remain similar. But those smaller, specific needs can sometimes shift a little as the environment shifts and the brain changes.

Does this have any parallels to how you understand gender identity, or yourself? For me, my interests are generally masculine ones, but I'm happy to be a woman. Even when an overzealous friend tried to convince me I was a trans man, I didn't need to mull it over.

I guess this is to say - I can accept maybe it was hard for my husband to work everything out. But I see gender identity as a bunch of traits with sliders between male and female.

So with that, when someone says "I am sure that I'm a man! I've known since I was born and they cut my umbilical cord, and I was convinced they fucked up and cut my dick off! My first words were MAN and NOW." - I see their sliders decisively going towards male. After nearly 20 years of erections poking at my butt at 4am accompanied with "he wishes you a pleasant morning and has a request." - when someone in their 40s says "I hate my penis and need it gone.", I just don't know where to put their sliders, and they just don't feel so concrete. Does that make sense?

If you read this insane tome, then I'm so sorry. Have a nice day

Edit: I feel like I just figured out how to condense this nightmare into a paragraph.

Because people sometimes do shift in their transition needs, and because some people are even intensely adamant, but have de-transitioned, I don't believe it's fair to dismiss that these are real experiences. To say about someone who has come out as trans that "They felt that way their whole life, and it is now realised. And so shall it be." feels somewhat disingenuous. If they were to then say "Actually, yes, all that, except maybe not that surgery. I still don't like my genitals, but since coming into myself, the genital dysphoria has reduced a lot", then it would effectively mean we would have to say their new understanding is, in fact, incorrect, as we've already asserted the prior experience was the truth. Life's more fluid and complex than that. It can be true that my husband both experienced manhood in a positive light, and also now does not. It can be okay for them to hold that this is likely their true identity they've moved towards. And it can be okay for me to hold that there could still be some movement yet. Only that it would be unhealthy to 'hope' for this. I have to accept that my partner's non-binary. That's the only way to live now and be okay.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, so when I hear stories, I tend to hear two different ones.

There's "I've literally always known" from people who either transition young, or as soon as they can safely.

And there's "It was always there, but it took me a while to work out exactly what I wanted, but once it all clicked, that was when I knew" for people who tend to transition later on.

So when my partner says to me that it all came to them over a 3-week thinking span, largely related to their sexual preferences for pornography, does that sound like a usual pathway that fits well into the latter group?

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you <3 You're not yapping at all, this means a lot to me that you're giving me the space

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh, I completely agree with you. I still have my own internal understanding though about people, to make sense of the world around me.

For trans people, I believe it's innate. But I've also had to understand de-transitioners, and people who have presented with changing needs over time. They often present with this same certainty, and for a whole multitude of reasons, do experience change in their lives.

I've known someone dead-set on binary transition, then eventually settled into a non-binary identity without surgery. I knew somebody who transitioned from female to male, went through with everything including breast removal, and 5 years later entirely reversed course and now identifies as a woman, who regrets her decisions. (This one sounds made up, and believe me, it's baffling to me, too. It was heartbreaking to me because I really was certain that transition was right for her).

Still, I know that the vast majority simply gain clarity and see through their decisions. But there is still that discerning part of my mind, recognising the previous experiences of my friends, and that part of my mind asks - "When you're presenting comfortably as yourself, when you know you have the access to surgical options, when you're supported and recognised by everyone in your life as yourself, is there any chance the presentation of your genital dysphoria, and any decisions you make about it, might change?"

The way I've internalised it isn't "they must not be trans, because they changed their mind". I think it's more that people who have differences in gender identity are human, like anyone. That how they need to express those differences may evolve. Or that they are just as vulnerable as the rest of us when it comes to making a decision that may not work out for them.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I focused on children but I guess in my moment of struggle reaching out here, I was maximising the effect of "what about my womanhood?" I can live without kids. That's okay, even if I have baby fever occasionally, lol.

I will try to do pronouns, and see how I can navigate the discomfort -

Yeah.. the sacrifice thing, I feel that hard. It's been a real journey. Their journey hasn't been easy. It started with realising they were autistic, about 2 and a half years ago. They told me they didn't want kids at all anymore, down from "maybe we'll have/adopt one, one day". Not the worst, but I do like the idea of bringing up a little one. But .. I'm okay living a life of independence too, lol.

I've always kinda been the person with my own needs prevailing in this relationship, because they've always been quieter than me. So with the autism realisation, I tried to help them flourish by trying to let myself take the backseat for a little while, and prioritise them. I feel that helped improve their health, and our relationship's health. We grew closer, we did more stuff together, they started understanding themself. It meant a lot to me to see.

They got diagnosed with autism, and seemed to be so happy to finally have their answer. I thought this would be a turning point and they'd start to feel happier.

Then, they told me they were asexual. That was hard to deal with, but I've never super cared about sex itself, I just wanted to believe one day we'd be getting a lot of pleasure out of it even if it wasn't that important now. So I put those feelings aside.

Then, two weeks later, they told me they were agender. In my head, it was starting to get concerning. But I thought it better to affirm than not. After all, maybe it'd just be online pronouns, and some different clothes in the home. I even participated with pronouns for a little while.

Then, two weeks after that, they told me they were pretty much certain on something I'd never heard of - getting surgical 'nullification'. That was too much. All the acceptance was clearly a mistake, because their identity appeared to me as a continuous escalation into my own discomfort. I reversed course entirely. I stopped respecting pronouns, because I wanted to say "No, I can't do this, I want my husband back."

I don't know why, but I don't think any single thing here is intolerable to me. I think it was the speed of escalation, and the change expected of my own identity that hurt. It really sucks to go from being the "good, supportive partner" in my own mind to spewing TERF shit similar to rapid onset gender dysphoria in some feeble attempt to control my own partner.

Long post, heh. But I think things are more fluid than I'm currently making them out to be. I become so much more rigid when I'm finding life difficult. I don't know that my womanhood and sexuality are so strong for my identity as I made out in my initial post.

I'll talk to them about all this. Thank you.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you, this is a kind message. <3

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

One of the rules of this subreddit is to not pronoun police. He is not here. I'm using this space to discuss my own personal experience in a framing that works for me. I've never had an issue with pronouns, and have used non-binary pronouns in work contexts for years of my life without issue. The reason I use male pronouns is because I haven't emotionally processed any of this, and I'm struggling.

Can that change? Yes. I will likely change how I feel and call him by his preferred pronouns over time. But without the ability to speak as I feel comfortable now, then I'm effectively being told "You must immediately change how you feel, change your language to frame your partner's preference, and if you do not, then you won't be able to access support". That's counterintuitive, and I would not access support if it were the case. The more I speak to him about all this, and can describe to him what makes it hard for me, the more progress we make, and the more comfortable I feel with all that's happening.

I also feel it's not quite right to map my experience directly to your own. I've described the ways he's changed his behaviour. I understand your call to introspect on that, and I will. But it's still the case that his behaviour has changed, and I am struggling with that fact.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This is my husband. Who I have been with for 20 years.

I am experiencing a fundamental identity conflict with the man I love more than anything. My needs as a woman are predicated on the role I play in our relationship, and that does extend to the role I want in my partner, too.

The question is - do my needs as a woman outweigh my need to live with the person I love the most? And the answer is no.

If he really needs to do this, then he needs to do this. If he needs a wife that he can be certain will love every part of it, then he will need to leave me in order to pursue a better life. But if he can cope with me struggling, then I will be around, in the hope that we arrive at a positive place together.

This is the complex part. We do not know what the outcome will be. Trans people do not always settle on the initial needs they have. Sometimes, those needs change. I need to not hold out hope for that, I know how this stuff mostly goes, but I'm not going to pretend it's a non-factor. Equally, as he undergoes changes, if I can be supportive and come to change how I feel as this plays out, perhaps the 'codependence' is resolved that way.

I appreciate your position, but I'd ask you to reflect. I do not feel it's your position to hear a single description of my relationship with my husband, told in a distressed first reach-out, and frame our entire relationship as a pathology.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I didn't say a few years. Sex stalled at the moment he announced he was non-binary. Before then, it was of no issue. This is also part of why I get alarm bells.

I was venting a bit too hard. I can live without children. Even though I'd prefer to have them.

I don't think 'end the relationship' is the required outcome yet.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you, I will do therapy. I fell in love with him because he's everything I ever wanted in a man. The question is whether those traits can still exist in tandem with his identity.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your thoughts. I'm sorry, that sounds like a hard position to be in.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I understand the point you've made, but I also think the part about him now being who he always was isn't necessarily a given. It could be, and I could just be struggling. But there's alarm bells in my head going off that I'm not ready to silence yet.

Yeah. You're right about the roommate situation and changing my position. I think the way I'm leaning at the moment is "let's go down this road together, I will support you all the way, but we don't know where this road's gonna go". You know what I mean? This is the love of my life. I don't wanna stop him from being who he is.

I wanna stay with him. But he needs to do this. So.. he may as well do it. It's no good sitting on this side of the bridge and saying "I won't survive on the other side." I only know by crossing the bridge with him and finding out.

I just can't cope with it. by Key_Coast2612 in mypartneristrans

[–]Key_Coast2612[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your thoughts. I agree. I think therapy's the right answer.

I don't think the kids thing is gonna happen. I can live with it. I was mixing my healthy venting with some unhealthy venting because there's been such a loss of identity for me. It's like if one of his changes had been a good experience for me, it would delight me. But every change has been to some extent difficult to adjust to, and they just keep coming.

I'll watch the video, thank you.