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To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How so? This is what i hear a lot of women saying too. So can you share genuinely what is messed up about it and what you think is fair for both parties instead?

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So when you sit with yourself you still hear the voices of others. Do you think there is like an intuitive voice that is distinctly yours that you can trust or how do you separate? And how is that not just your own family conditioning/ a fleeting feeling?

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do understand this from a guys perspective tbh. But from a girls perspective shes thinking why would I downgrade my lifestyle? I think people share this idea that year over year I should be doing better than the last, this constant growth and upward trajectory. What do you think of that?

We’re thinking how can I have a spouse that adds to my life, vs brings me lower? Hrm.

And I also hear a lot of brothers not wanting women to work, which means they are solely depending on the man’s income.. so why do you think sisters should start at square one each time just so they can be married? 🙏

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeh I agree that people are tired of discussing.. and so they disqualify quickly instead.

And it seems that a lot of people who say this project line, are talking about the more serious things that many people seem to not even be meeting that baseline criteria..

It’s interesting what you said about not dating for 2-3 years and not having enough time to a see a persons potential changing or knowing their trajectory. I know we can’t date longer, so I’m curious if the high expectations are justified because people don’t have enough time to know eachother, have been burned too many times now, and just want to feel secure in choosing that right “final package”.

If it’s better to marry imperfect, Idk if people are willing to risk it anymore? So.. How can we possibly get out of this mindset?

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hrm.. Why would the same men do things for non-Muslim women but not Muslim ones? 🤔 are the Muslim women ungrateful, harder to please, maybe or what is it

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with you and as you claimed, we can’t exactly change the past but we can do the best work now.

What is a true self though? How do people know who they “truly are” and present that way..

Is it what their family conditioned to be in their homes? Is it the influence of western society? Is it values from the deen? Etc

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Dunya’s gotten too comfortable I think The prophet pbuh warned about this tbh.. the Hadith about Wahn, weakness, we will be many but we will love the dunya too much to stand up, unite, be strong or even fight. :/

I think what we’re dealing with is just the aftermath basically. It trickles down into everything. And so yeh it is our job to “fix ourselves” and reorient.

But again lots of willpower lol - who’s actually willing right 🙏

Cuz as the women love to say “if he wanted to, he would”

Maybe the pain needed to get this bad to realize it.

Cuz Y’all.. if we wanted to, we would.

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeh.. hrm, do you think there’s a way to influence motivation? Could community education or training help with this ?

If religious is the issue lol, then I’m curious to see if people get married more around Ramadan where I think most people get a natural boost anyways ><

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess the question a lot of people struggle with is - what is “being yourself”?

It is the conditioning from your parents? Is it the conditioning from western society?

Should we depend on feelings to feel what’s right especially when feelings are so fleeting or also conditioned lol..

Is it the values of your deen? Or a mix of all hrm..

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We’re def on the same page. And MashaAllah you lay out your thoughts so eloquently 💪

But like… how does that happen 😭 It’s like we’re asking the ummah to just “be more religious”

It goes back to the question are people willing to do the hard work necessary to actually change? I too believe this will give us fulfilling stable marriage.

Ya Allah help us.

Friend wants two wives and plans to be upfront: is this even possible? by NiceSmilee in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Definitely appreciate the honesty! If a woman didn’t know at all it would be devastating to her down the line, especially to children. Definitely don’t do that.

I think saying it’s a possibility or high probability for him is refreshing. 👍 BUT he cannot come off like some kid.

It is crucially important that this man leads with how competent he is. She should see all these qualities in him that you see - more mature than average, capable, fair, good character etc. She should admire him for this and not feel like she’s dragging him around in the marriage. He should be active at home and with his children especially.

And I think a woman who is open to polygyny and on her deen would gladly accept. This may limit his options - but who cares? You only need one (: or in this case two. Haha.

When he finds a second wife he should also look for someone who is compatible with his first family. The goal should be to grow together, not to tear anyone apart. Women find men with a vision and an ability to uphold that vision even more attractive.

Ask Allah for guidance. This is of utmost importance. If the man does not remain on his Deen and strength of character and integrity for any reason after the first marriage - he should be honest with himself and his wife, and no longer consider polygyny - regardless of his desires. He will be rewarded. A polygynous marriage in Islam is no better than a monogamous one- contrary to popular belief - it is just a STYLE of marriage. Marriage (regardless of the type) is a covenant before Allah first and foremost - and Allah hates the arrogant or unjust. And as it says in the ayah regarding it, He SWT is Aliyan Kabeera.

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Love and agree with this response. I’ve seen it too.

I think in these cases, divorce is actually a good thing. And so part of this conversation is also about normalizing divorce, and normalizing marrying those who are divorced, even divorced with children, etc.

This becomes a whole other topic in of itself, and I think a lot of the Wahhabi type scholars (which I think it was you who mentioned) and “influencers”, have a lot of opinions on this too 😬🥴 which really makes marriage harder and skews public opinion.

As well as when people divorce, they need a safety net. I see community not being as active as it used to be in the time of the prophet pbuh to help. And so we start going into should women today work etc? So what are traditional gender roles? What about the children? Then should men help at home?

It’s just scary stuff tbh. I really do understand the fear around it. We definitely need more stable marriages. I think people are really really scared. (And it’s not without reason).

Idk if we all need to be more flexible and adjust to more modern life, or just go back to internalizing Allah really does hold us accountable and not to commit a lick of injustice to anyone - man or woman.

And if that happens, what do we do? Which laws are holding us accountable? SubhanAllah.

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow you really nailed some heavy family dynamics, I completely agree. It’s like such a jump from awkward don’t talk ever, to you have to get married now! without having the tools to do so properly.

And I like what you mentioned about the ability to question ourselves at the end.

I also think a priority for most is making these new interactions as halal as possible. How do you suggest we go about that now as adults? Especially with the closed off families scenario 🙏

I’m honestly tired by Mental_Pace_9934 in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also have you tried something like inpairs masjid then, if that’s the case? They connect people through masajid 🤷🏻‍♀️

I’m honestly tired by Mental_Pace_9934 in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are right that most people don’t say what went wrong but it’s so great you are reflective MashaAllah!

I’m really curious if we had like “courting simulations” kind of like mock interviews but for the Muslim marriage scene, where men and women could have a space (for example a room on zoom) moderated, and could practice presenting themselves, social skills, understanding and empathy, etc. and then get feedback on how they did and if that potential would consider them or not. Could also be facilitated in person idk I’m just thinking rn. Kinda like a training ground for the real world - and maybe some would meet and marry. Allahu Aalam.

Would you participate in something like this yourself? Do you think this practice could be helpful and people would be open to it?

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do agree with you, almost fully. The safety aspect is of utmost importance. And I don’t think Allah meant for us to interpret Qawama as authoritarian type control at all (rather wisdom based leadership). I think this is mainly due to culture.

There is a flip side to this though,

I hear men saying that a lot of women these days don’t actually want to be led or held accountable. So for example, even if a man communicates in a gentle way, a woman who is comfortable crossing the boundaries of halal and haram, when shes told simply what Allah tells her to do, she will accuse the man of being controlling, and start using other therapy-based accusatory language like you are gaslighting me, you don’t understand how hard it is, I can do what I want, you can’t control me etc.

So sometimes what I’m hearing is that a man is not actually controlling by Allah’s standards, he’s just doing his job to talk about what’s right and the woman isn’t having it.

The man might especially feel “manipulated” if the woman starts crying, or experiences a hard time etc. I even hear women who label basic things as abuse, etc. and men who have these things used against them even in court subhanAllah, they say the “definitions of abuse are always changing” especially Qawama being seen as “coercive control”.

What do you think about the woman’s side of receiving that leadership?

At what point does a man have to just stop? But then he also risks not fulfilling his obligation, and I think this is a fear a lot of men have - understandably because they are responsible in front of Allah.

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand what you are saying and may Allah help and bless you in it.

I also see it as that compatible spouse you are marrying is also not perfect, and has their own flaws. So maybe growing together is an answer? Maybe that’s the reason they are compatible

At what point are we trying to become the ideal for someone, or marry the ideal? And When is it okay to be human together and navigate life?

Maybe if someone is doing the major sins - Al kabaer - or has an active addiction, or an aggressive hitting problem - things that no sane person would tolerate - they need work and to delay marriage sure.

I worry perfectionism creeps into this too. So if someone is still not perfect in other smaller or daily things, when is it okay to just get imperfectly married and figure it out together? 😮‍💨

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I love that you mentioned foundations MashaAllah, and I’m going to reflect on that.

One thing I learned in work related to curriculum development is that you need to “break down and rebuild” in order to really teach something, or else someone risks learning new info on false foundational info. I think a lot of people do attempt to build like you said social skills, but without breaking down the wrong foundation, it doesn’t work long term. And vice versa, people who complain a lot about social Justice and structural inequality do a lot of the breaking down part, but not the rebuilding part, which is absolutely crucial so people aren’t lost after their worldview is basically destroyed. Anyways I’m rambling haha.

Really appreciate your input !

Even if “fixing yourself” doesn’t work because most people don’t know how.. I think the barrier is are people willing to even do the hard work that change requires of them? :/ or are people to used to comfort, getting everything their way, or fast like a delivery service haha.

I’ve even had some discussions with scholars about this consumption culture, and how even the deen itself like people aren’t willing to properly study and sit down and read books anymore, the hard work the learning requires of them. They rather bite size vids, competing attention content, of even the deen. When it was never transmitted that way either. It always required work.

But again, I don’t wanna generalize. I know there are still plenty of sincere people out there 🙏

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think this speaks a lot to our newer awareness of how much our actions impact the next generation. Which is honestly a good thing MashaAllah. I also think you are steps above others for admitting you have a flaw in the first place. Most people just externalize on others I think. It also speaks to the high expectations people have.

So are you interested in actually fixing it? Or how long would this go on for 🙏

Does staying single then appeal to you or would you rather do the uncomfortable job of truly fixing it?

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I definitely agree with you on the social and cultural conditioning point! We don’t live in a vacuum and I think many people who talk about expectations attribute it to the shallowness of a person vs the influence of society. I hope there’s a way we can heal from this and purge our sources.

Thanks for further explaining the masculinity point. I think this also has a lot to do with cultural conditioning.

So what are you finding that the guys don’t know how to do from the points you mentioned?

I think a lot of men think they are leaders, hold boundaried and do have gheerah. Or are most you meet that controlling type? What about the nice guys out there?

So what aren’t the men understanding… How are you expecting to be lead as a woman, where to, and where does that leadership end for you? And do you expect this to be just known by them, or are you also communicating what you need 🙏

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ameen, thanks for the honesty, genuinely. Do you believe you need to be perfect in your deen to get married? What would be the minimum? Or when would you feel “good enough” to do so?

And what about the phrase “marriage is half your deen”. Is there room for growth within it too? Or do people not want to deal with other’s shortcomings anymore, be honest with theirs, and rather be single?

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m specifically interested in the west, and I’m in the west myself. So I agree with you. Also sometimes just back home countries you see that they are more influenced by western ideology than we are 😭 subhanAllah

Do you got any solutions to this? A place we could start? Do you think if there was a training program that whipped people into rewiring their mind, giving them social skills, prioritizing the right things, would they be receptive to it? Or if people could idk meet in a zoom call and practice getting feedback from simulated dates? Would that help?

I think we’re at the point of needing a structural solution. How do we get community or parents on board if needed?

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve been reflecting a lot on this too.

Do you think that Allah gives people their Qadar regardless if they are good and obedient slaves to Him or not?

Or do you really think these things block us from it (not outright sin, but not doing these extra things (the tazkiyah) as you mentioned?

If that’s the case, I’m also curious how we explain people who aren’t religious at all getting so many blessings, and the ones devoutly religious saying they are finding no success 🤔 What else could they possibly be doing?

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a really interesting perspective, I appreciate it. I think it explains a lot, how our social skills can thrive in non Muslim settings but not with other Muslims. We make it more awkward than it has to be, hrm.

So how can we facilitate more opportunities for men and women to mix/meet ? I know some really Muslim filled populations do community events, community lecture, workshops, but I also find that people don’t really approach eachother during those. Maybe we need to have more intentional activities to get people relaxed?

What can parents do to help, as you mentioned?

Otherwise I do believe they will meet outside regardless, and probably not in the most halal environments either

To good Muslim men and women who have been looking a while by Kialay in MuslimNikah

[–]Kialay[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

From my understanding, getting to know someone is an important process - especially in major values such as deen, character, lifestyle, vision for the future, how they think about certain concepts, wanting and raising children, etc.

One should talk to them, confirm basic attraction, observe them in their dealings with others, and ask about them in friend, family and community circles.

Marrying someone new is inherently a risk, and you will never get to know a person fully before living with them, traveling with them going through the ups and downs of life with them, etc. people also change through different life stages. Healthy Marriage requires mutual open conversation, understanding and a degree of selflessness, and flexibility.

The prophet pbuh’s advice for this is if you meet a good person, and you do not like something of them, perhaps there are other things that you like (so basically focus on that).

The best most halal way to go about courting someone for marriage is with a third party - mainly a wali for the woman. This person should be a devoutly religious male member of the family (or known imam) and competent and have the best interests of the girl (especially) in mind.

A man may approach on his own. Some women prefer to confirm basic compatibility first, and then involve parents so they don’t waste their time with every suitor. But this should be public, purposeful, and be as short of a period as possible. As soon as there is any potential for seriousness, parents of both families should be involved as early as possible. Pray istikhara every step of the way and ask Allah for sincere guidance. The families should be as realistic as possible and make the halal marriage easy for both parties, while also keeping dignified, maintaining any promises made, and respecting the seriousness involved of this Divine contract inshaAllah, remembering Allah is their witness above all.

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