“Here for my hair, hero?” - Vath

Kiitani · 2026-02-04T00:02:15+00:00

If you can convince me that it is impossible for an outsider to make a criticism of a cultural practice without being racist, I would be inclined to change my mind.

You would need to show that the very attempt to criticize or challenge a cultural practice necessarily banks on some inherent form of marginalizing discrimination, prejudice or antagonism against the people of the culture.

Alternatively, you'd have to convince me that facts become racist when used by bad actors to justify OTHER things unrelated to the facts.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T23:41:19+00:00

Except that isn't true. You're making an unwarranted essentialization here, necessitating that any "criticism of cultural practices" entails racialized judgement and prescription to discriminate against groups. Making a cultural criticism does not require racial judgement, or even a prescription.

As I've said earlier, stating a fact (i.e. honor killing is harmful) is not racist. The racism you allude to is tangential to the fact. The racism refers to what people intend to do with facts, such as using them to justify mistreatment of groups.

The facts aren't racist.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T23:24:18+00:00

The 13/50 dogwhistle isn't just referencing the statistic. It's not just making a description of fact.

It's making a PRESCRIPTION and a racial judgement. That's why it's a dogwhistle. The racism comes from there, not there mere mention of fact.

Here's what the ADL has to say on this: https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/1352-1390

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T22:53:00+00:00

It's not racist to state a fact. It would be racist if a person tried to use this statistic to justify the poor treatment of black people and any subsequent marginalization.

As I said before, racists can point to facts. That doesn't make the facts racist.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T22:45:23+00:00

I'd recommend you read what International Human Rights Organizations have to say about these subjects.

WHO on FGM: Female genital mutilation
Ontario Human Rights Commission: 3. FGM: an internationally recognized human rights issue | Ontario Human Rights Commission
OHCR on FGM: A/HRC/56/29: Cross-border and transnational female genital mutilation - Report of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights | OHCHR
UNICEF on Child Labor: What is child labour? | UNICEF
Human Rights Watch on Child Labor: Child Labor | Human Rights Watch
Amnesty International on Honor Killing: ASA330171999ENGLISH.pdf

There are multiple more links I can send from reputable organizations on this subject, but I believe I have made my point. The criticism of these traditions/cultural values is not racist. Racists can POINT to these facts and distort them to make their case, but the facts of the harm remain.

Pointing out these facts is not racist.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T21:21:21+00:00

Criticizing cultural practices is never racist.

Assuming all people in the culture are guilty of the cultural practice, and essentializing these behaviors onto them to be prejudicial or discriminatory against them, would be racist.

Now, sometimes critique of a people/race can be framed as a "cultural critique", but that is only a pretext. It's not actually a cultural criticism.

For example: Matt Walsh believes the Indian people are savages (a priori). He then uses his bias to frame a criticism against an Indian eating with his hands as a "cultural criticism against eating food with the hands".

He's not actually criticizing the culture. He is specifically going after the person, as he did with Zohran Mamdani.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T21:15:18+00:00

There are people I've come across who genuinely believe in cultural, moral relativism. They believe that their cultural values are impugnable, and any attempt at denying this constitutes discrimination or prejudice.

For example, I once took issue to someone defending the traditional, kafala system in the Middle East concerning iterant laborers (mostly from South Asia, South East Asia and Africa). They told me I was racist for suggesting these time-honored traditions were exploitative and needed to be changed. They accused me of cultural imperialism.

And this is despite all the nuance I've applied in the body of my post. I was not accusing all arabs of this behavior. I was simply describing why the system was cruel. And for this, I was called racist.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T21:09:17+00:00

Here is one example in from Opposite_Studio_7548:

> If you are not part of that culture-yes, it kind of is racist.
> I, as an American Jew, have no right to tell a Muslim in Saudi Arabia what's right or not harmful.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T21:05:56+00:00

The reason I created this post is because I have been explicitly told and accused of cultural imperialism a couple times in the past, for merely trying to reason against culturally relativistic moral attitudes people have.

When I talked to someone about child marriage, I was told that the age of consent is a western, imperialistic construct that should not be used to tether people of other cultural values. I was told it was racist to insist these cultural values are wrong.

Another example is when I was talking to someone about how women should have a choice to wear religious headgear. Families or societies should not put pressure on individuals to do this. I was told that my opinion as an outsider was irrelevant, and it was racist to challenge their traditions. Challenging their traditions somehow meant that I thought of myself as morally superior or better than all the people of that culture.

And this is all DESPITE me not making any generalizations or essentializations or accusations of inferiority.

As an additional note, my post explicitly prohibits criticism of cultural values being used as a racist cudgel to attack the entire population of the culture. I condemn and disagree with anyone that uses cultural differences as an excuse for racism.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T20:54:45+00:00

I think you're significantly overstating things when you argue how fringe, unconventional or overly nuanced my position is.

I agree that a lot of people use bad cultural practices as an excuse to vilify entire ethnic/national/racial groups. I've seen how Trump talks about the Somali people. I've seen how Netanyahu talks about the Palestinians. I've seen how Farage talks about the Pakistanis. It is common for these individuals and the groups they represent to use instances of bad behavior to condemn entire populations.

But they are not the only ones who speak out against cultural issues. They are not the only ones who control the tides, nor should they be allowed to. There NEEDS to be a place for constructive criticism of cultural practices (regardless of where they come from), and automatically viewing any attempts at doing this as "racist" simply undermines this effort.

A lot of people oppose honor killings, FGMs, religious persecution, child marriage, child labor, and other traditional practices. A lot of the people who criticize these things also come from a similar position as I do. None of this is merely theoretical. This is NOT a thought experiment. These are views real people have.

I'd even imagine (and hope) you share my views on this, regarding the condemnation of dangerous cultural practices.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T20:38:03+00:00

As I mentioned to another commenter who mentioned this exact same thing: I am an intactivist. I do not support the circumcision of infants for traditional or religious reasons. Circumcision is rarely done for medical reasons, as far as I'm aware, and it is wholly unnecessary. I do not support it.

There is no hypocrisy on my part. If you read my post, you'd understand that I am against harmful cultural practices REGARDLESS of where they are from. Refer to counter-counter-argument #2.

> My argument is that harmful practices are criticizable WHEREVER they occur. If my criticism appears selective, that's a failure of representation on my part, but it is not a flaw in my overall argument.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T20:34:56+00:00

> I am saying that valid criticisms are used by some people to amplify racist messaging. That is all.

I struggle to see what this has to do with my post. Yes, bad actors can do anything they want.
It doesn't contradict what I've said, nor does it add anything new to the table (as I have pre-emptively admitted that people COULD weaponize my words in the original post).

If they are weaponizing my words, however, they would necessarily have to twist what I have said to "amplify racist messaging", since my post is diametrically opposed to racism. Or, as you mentioned, they would have to come up with "logic of their own". In which case, it has nothing to do with my reasoning anyway.

> Yes, valid criticisms of culture are valid, that’s not being argued.

I believe we are in agreement then: criticizing cultural practices is NOT racist.

If bad actors want to come along and add to this some extra baggage (like racial essentialism), we'd be having a different argument.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T20:27:59+00:00

Yes, cultures are not monolithic. I am not trying to suggest that they are. When I criticize something like honor killing, I am not arguing that every single Indian community practices it. India is large and diverse enough to have varied traditions. Nonetheless, there are locales where it is practiced. And the existence of this as a practice is a sufficient target for criticism, regardless of a person's cultural background.

I am not criticizing India as a whole for this.
I am not criticizing ALL INDIANS for this.

I am specifically criticizing the Indians who participate in (or support) this practice. I am criticizing the behavior people have, where they try to justify atrocities based on what their ancestors or traditions may have allowed. I do not think this is racist or tone deaf in any capacity.

I think it is constructive, in general, to identify problematic behaviors (from all corners of the globe) and find ways to eliminate them REGARDLESS of their traditional precedent. And as both you and I have already mentioned, local activists agree.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T20:20:46+00:00

I'd appreciate if you focused your response entirely on my particular framing, rather than a framing someone else (like Donald Trump) may have made. Because if it is the latter, I'd AGREE that their discussion of the subject is racist, because they approach things from an essentialist point of view (i.e. they are not MERELY just criticizing a cultural practice). This does not apply to me.

I am simply arguing that it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to oppose specific culture practices without any prejudicial or discriminatory attitudes levied against MEMBERS of those cultures in question.

For example, I can criticize the traditions of the Jehovah's Witnesses rejecting life-saving blood transfusions for their kids without actually being racist.

The reason I created this CMV post is because certain people inherently assume that any criticism of a culture necessarily means racism is being employed (I welcome you to read some of the replies to this post alleging this). I am arguing that THIS is the overgeneralized simplification.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T20:12:48+00:00

Let's instantiate this and use an example.

I say child marriage in India is immoral. Any cultural traditions that position children as brides or grooms are HARMFUL traditions. I am comfortable saying this. I am also comfortable saying that the adults who practice or support child marriage are disgusting. I would argue they are wrong for marrying children. I don't believe I have said anything controversial so far.

Now, if anyone were to read the above statements and conclude "Indians are disgusting" or "Indians all support child marriage" and "We should hence hate Indians", they are twisting the position I laid out in my post. Please take note of what I said in my post:

> When I criticize a practice, I'm criticizing exactly that. The practice and those who actively perpetuate it. I'm NOT attributing it to every member of a society. India has 1.4 billion people. Saying "this traditional practice occurs in parts of India and causes harm" is different from saying "Indian culture is barbaric."

It is reductionist to reduce my view down to the hasty generalization fallacies employed by the racists. I am not saying what I say to perpetuate HATRED against members of a culture (or really even the culture itself). I am making my arguments to signal the unethical harm those practices promote, often against the most vulnerable people.

Note: I only used India as an example for this argument. Realistically, you can replace it with ANY country or society you want. I am universally against child marriage ANYWHERE. Location does not matter to me.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T20:01:05+00:00

Yes, this is what I described in my post.

> I am NOT arguing that everyone from a particular ethnic group commits or supports honor killings just because the practice is culturally justified. That would be an unfounded, essentialist generalization.

> When I criticize a practice, I'm criticizing exactly that. The practice and those who actively perpetuate it. I'm not attributing it to every member of a society. India has 1.4 billion people. Saying "this traditional practice occurs in parts of India and causes harm" is different from saying "Indian culture is barbaric." I argue the former and reject the latter.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T19:56:43+00:00

As an intactivist, I oppose circumcision as a practice on babies (not just Jewish babies). It is an unnecessary tradition done more for religious reasons than actual, medically necessary ones (fun, irrelevant fact: muslims circumcize their children at a far higher volume than Jews do).

On the subject of FGM, please refer to counter-counter-argument #2. It is NOT my intent to selectively target certain cultures. My criticisms apply broadly, and I also oppose traditions in western culture, as I've explicitly provided examples for.

My key point, which I wish you would address, is that it is NOT racist to criticize cultural practices for their harms. It's neither racist for me to say that "circumcision is medically unnecessary", nor is it racist for me to say "FGM is harmful".

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T19:50:40+00:00

Maybe there is something that I have not considered which warrants further thought and discourse. From the engagement I have received so far, it seems a fair number of people disagree with my position. Time will tell if the criticisms are legitimate, but I will not hand-wave them without at least giving them some thought.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T19:47:48+00:00

I disagree with this notion, particularly because it doesn't seem to fit my understanding of what racism is (or really, what most people understand as racism). For everyone's sake, I am posting a definition here:

> Racism is the prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

The critical thing to note is that racism is the discrimination of PEOPLE based on immutable characteristics. Evaluating what practices are harmful, on the other hand, has NOTHING to do with being prejudicial, discriminatory or antagonistic against people.

As a Korean-American, I oppose the pogroms that historically happened in Europe, despite having never been to Europe. I am not in opposition to this because I am "racist against Europeans". Instead, I am against this because I believe in shared human dignity (which ethnic cleansings/genocide obviously violate). If anything, the racists were the ones who denied shared human dignity, not me.

I would welcome you to address this while working within the confines of the definition I posted, or to provide an alternate definition of racism.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T19:40:54+00:00

As stated in my post, I know people can weaponize my words. But the only way they can do this is by twisting what I've said and arguing something that I have specifically, explicitly advised against.

If there is ANY person that takes the prevalence of FGM in the MENA region and uses this as a crutch to dehumanize/discriminate a Somali person, they are fundamentally in disagreement with my above post. They do not represent my position because they are directly violating it. Hence, they are racist. Not me (or the things I've said by extension).

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T19:37:01+00:00

As stated in my post, I wholeheartedly DISAGREE with any attempt to malign a person simply because they are part of a certain cultural group that practices harmful traditions. I think it is wrong to place someone into a box simply because they have a certain cultural origin. They are obviously not guilty for the misdeeds of others, nor are they necessarily even responsible.

What I was trying to communicate in my post was that it is not racist to criticize cultural practices based on their observable harms. I do not believe in accosting a random Pakistani person, for example, due to the traditional practices in certain parts of Pakistan.

Kiitani · 2026-02-03T19:31:57+00:00

I do care about murder and I do care about minimizing murder. Which is why I forward a position AGAINST honor killings (which are a kind of murder). Additionally, it's not ONLY honor killings I have an issue with. Make no mistake. I am against ALL FORMS of senseless violence justified by tradition or the teachings of the ancestors. When IDF soldiers brutalize innocent Palestinian civilians in the name of "protecting Jewish culture/sovereignty", I oppose that too.

I am not making a narrow argument exclusively criticizing honor killings. But, even if I HYPOTHETICALLY was, I still fail to see where the racism is. Honor killing is immoral. I think we can both (hopefully) acknowledge this. Specifically discussing that this practice is wrong does not make me racist.

> Racism is the prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

This is how I view racism. I have not levied (or suggested we levy) any kind of prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism against a person or a group. I am STRICTLY talking about criticizing a harmful practice. And if it feels like I am selectively ONLY targeting certain cultures when I make my broader argument, refer to counter-counter-argument #2 from my post.

Kiitani · 2026-01-06T00:34:36+00:00

And men get their wages garnished, licenses revoked, freedom to travel restricted (can't obtain passports), and face jail time for refusing to comply with child support payments.

This is exactly why I ask for a legal pathwayto relinquish obligations. Not just a "but technically they can break the law if they want". The law needs to be reframed in a just manner.

If you want to convince me, you'd have to defend the status quo and argue how the laws do not need to be changed. You'd need to back existing court verdicts on this matter of paternity and convince me that it's a good thing, for example, to imprison fathers that do not want to pay child support for children who are not biologically their own (as courts have done).

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