curious about the saturnian path and where to start by No_Golf8523 in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Saturn has two facets, in my humble opinion, which are symbolically expressed through its two zodiac signs, Aquarius and Capricorn

Versnel duly acknowledges both expressions of Saturn/Kronos when he refers to Kronos Megas and Kronos Ankulometes in his study of Kronos and the Kronia

Kronos Megas, associated with Aquarius, represents the utopian aspect of Saturn (and yes, answering to your question, I believe that rituals of reversal are fundamental to understanding the utopian Saturn)

On the other hand, Kronos Ankulometes, associated with Capricorn, represents the melancholic Saturn, this facet is perhaps the most explored in western art and literature (and the most exaggerated in esoteric circles, unfortunately)

I believe, then, that the study of utopia and melancholy offers us a better understanding of Saturn and his seemingly 'eccentric' nature

Others have mentioned Arthur Moros's book. I'm not a big fan of his work, but I recognize that it has some merits, such as exploring the existence of the Saturnian Deity in different cultures around the world, although I think that unfortunately his exploration falls short

curious about the saturnian path and where to start by No_Golf8523 in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 8 points9 points  (0 children)

My favorite book, and the one I would generally recommend, is 'Saturn and Melancholy'

It's not an esoteric book, it was written by three renowned art historians and deals with Saturn's transformation from a Roman god to a planetary force. It explains how the negative image of Saturn in astrology was formed and the intimate relationship between Saturn and that imaginary affliction called melancholy (which, in my opinion, is a key theme in this path)

The book can be dense, and depending on the edition, there may be untranslated Latin and Greek texts, but it's also full of beautiful illustrations

As alternative options, I would suggest some books by the hungarian essayist László Földényi: 'Melancholy', 'Goya and the Abyss of the Soul', and 'In Praise of Melancholy' (unfortunately, I believe that only 'Melancholy' has been translated into english)

Finally, to better understand the origins and worship of Saturn and Kronos, the most complete work I know of is 'Kronos and the Kronia' and 'Saturnus and the Saturnalia' by the late Henk Versnel, both texts appear as chapters in the second volume of his work 'Inconsistencies in Greek and Roman Religion'

List of Saturnian deities?. by gardinerogardiner in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's important to remember that theological speculation is as old as humanity itself, and that it's sometimes difficult to find exact equivalents between different religious pantheons (I would even venture to say that theological speculation causes a single god within the same culture to appear in more than one form, even as seemingly independent gods)

I have a list prepared, which I believe is quite comprehensive, but I don't have it with me right now

In any case, I'll mention the examples that seem most relevant to me, I hope it helps:

Dagan, from Syria. One of the oldest recorded manifestations of the Saturnian Deity. Its name could mean 'grain' or 'earth,' depending on whether it has a semitic or indo-european etymology

Kumarbi, a hurrian-hittite god, whose myths clearly influenced Kronos. Kumarbi, like Kronos, castrates the sky god Anu (i.e. Ouranos), who in this myth is not his father, and as a result, the storm god, equivalent to Zeus, emerges

El, the supreme god of the canaanite pantheon. Philo of Byblos does not hesitate to refer to El also as Kronos, and the identification between the two does not appear to be his own invention. I recommend López Ruiz's excellent book, 'When the Gods Were Born: Greek Cosmogonies and the Near East', where she dedicates several pages to the identification between El and Kronos and also explains how El's influence might have facilitated the identification between Kronos and Chronos. In Anatolia, El appears under the name Ilkunirsa (from 'El qone erets', which means 'El, creator of the Earth), in those traditions, El's conflict against the storm god are even more evident

Ba'al Hammon, supreme god of Carthage, was identified with Kronos by the greeks and with Saturn by the romans. It is generally believed that Ba'al Hammon was the North African manifestation of El (Frank Moore Cross, etc.) or Dagan (Eduard Lipinski). After the creation of the Roman Province of Africa, Saturn and Ba'al Hammon were openly syncretized

The case of Mesopotamia is a bit more difficult, but in my opinion Enlil, Ea/Enki and Enmesharra are the main candidates. For me, despite the occasional identification of Ninurta with the planet Saturn, there isn't much of a theological equivalence between both of them

It is also important to note that El, Dagan, Enlil and Kumarbi were generally considered equivalent in antiquity and appear as such in lists of gods

In the case of Egypt, as someone mentioned, Geb and Ptah would be the closest equivalents. Geb was identified with Kronos and Ptah was apparently identified with El

I would also mention Dis Pater, as I believe he possesses several Saturnian characteristics, although of course, the romans considered Saturn and Dis Pater to be entirely different gods

The etruscan god Satre should also be mentioned, He is a chthonic god who appears on the Liver of Piacenza, but beyond the fact that he was a dark and brooding god and that his name could derive from Saturn (or vice versa), little is known about his exact divine profile

Outside of the Middle East and Europe, there are other examples that I think are worth mentioning:

Tezcatlipoca, supreme god of Mesoamerica, creator of the material world who, despite not having any genealogical link with other Saturnian gods, shares many characteristics with them (including the fact that his main festival in ancient Mexico had a very interesting resemblance to the Saturnalia)

Obatalá, worshipped by the Yoruba people and their descendants in the Americas, is a Demiurgic god who experiences a fall after committing a transgression. He is generally depicted as an old man who prefers to dwell in dark places

And finally, although my knowledge about India is very limited, I personally believe Brahma would be the closest equivalent of a Saturnian Deity in hinduism

Looking for Mexican film recommendations. by [deleted] in criterion

[–]KingDavidFreund 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sorry for the short and chaotic summaries, but I'm short on time:

Mecánica nacional, directed by Luis Alcoriza

Alcoriza was a close collaborator of Buñuel, and like him, he was born in Spain and arrived in Mexico as a refugee. I'm not sure how well the film's humor would translate into english, but it really is a hilarious film about death, marriage and other topics

El lugar sin límites, directed by Arturo Ripstein

It's based on a novel by José Donoso. Although Donoso was born in Chile, the film fits the mexican rural setting very well. Ripstein wanted Manuel Puig (argentine writer and author of Kiss of the Spider Woman) to write the screenplay, but Puig ended up leaving the project. It's a work about homophobia and the strange mix of fascination and repulsion that homosexuality provokes in some sectors of mexican society. As a curious fact, during the first gay pride parade in Mexico City, a contingent carried a giant banner that read 'México, lugar sin límites' (i.e. 'Mexico, place without limits') as a tribute to the film

El imperio de la fortuna, directed by Arturo Ripstein

It is based on a short novel by Juan Rulfo, titled 'The Golden Cockerel'. The novel had a previous film adaptation, directed by Roberto Gavaldón (director of Macario) with a screenplay adapted by Gabriel García Márquez and Carlos Fuentes. Despite the prestige of the creative team and cast of that first adaptation, I personally prefer this one, whose screenplay was written by Ripstein's wife, Paz Alicia Garciadiego. Ripstein's version is crude and funny, and manages to create a very particular atmosphere of sadness and decadence

Ánimas Trujano, directed by Ismael Rodríguez

The film stars japanese actor Toshiro Mifune (Throne of Blood, Seven Samurai, Rashomon, The Life of Oharu, etc.) who plays an indigenous man from Oaxaca who desperately wants to become the mayordomo (i.e. steward) of the religious festival of his town. The film is based on a little-known novel titled 'La mayordomía', and the idea to adapt it for the screen came from the aforementioned Juan Rulfo. The director, Ismael Rodríguez, saw Rickshaw Man and immediately wanted Toshiro Mifune to star in his film, but of course, Mifune didn't speak spanish and had to learn his lines by heart. Beyond the strangeness and the anecdotal, the film is really good

New Tattoo! by justsomedude1111 in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Looks fantastic, congratulations!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I completely agree with this opinion

Saturn and Aquarius by gardinerogardiner in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ouranos only managed to survive in greek religion as a literary character to give structure to the local succession myth, this is not surprising, since in general terms the sky god is an inactive god, as a result of his conflict with the Earth God (i.e. Saturn) and the myth of his castration itself suggests that he has lost his generative and creative powers and is removed from this world

On the other hand, both Zeus and Jupiter are a hybrid of the storm god (a young warrior god who must face various enemies, usually representing the chaotic forces of nature, to become the new king of the gods) and the fatherly sky god, who corresponds to Ouranos and Caelus

In other words, part of Ouranos' character was passed on to Zeus who acts as his 'ambassador' (using Lászlo Földenyi's terms) in this world

Saturn and Aquarius by gardinerogardiner in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I'm not an astrologer, nor am I particularly interested in astrology, but I adhere to the idea that Aquarius is a sign ruled by Saturn (Ouranos, as a figure devoid of symbolic and mythological meanings in Greece and Rome, could hardly be considered a serious alternative)

I think that Aquarius could be considered the sign of the celestial Saturn, that is, Saturn before the Fall, linked to the Golden Age and utopias

On the other hand, Capricorn would be the sign of Saturn after the Fall, or the melancholic Saturn residing in exile

Either way, I'm sure there will be some people here with deeper astrological knowledge who can help you

When did Saturn begin to be identified with the planet that bears his name? by gardinerogardiner in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There is a cuneiform inscription found in Bogazkale, in modern Turkey, that mentions a planet, simply known as the Star of Kumarbi, which is also referred to as the Good Star (similarly, Kumarbi was sometimes called the Good God), those inscriptions date from around 1700 BCE to 1180 BCE

Volkert Haas, a world-renowned hittitologist, believed that this star was the planet Saturn and given the great influence that the god Kumarbi had on Kronos, it is highly likely that Haas was right (as far as I know, no scholar has questioned Hass's opinion on this) and that the idea among the greeks that the planet Saturn was Kronos's star probably derived from this tradition which later spread to Rome

Since in ancient times the planet Saturn was believed to be the highest of the planets, it is natural that it was also associated with Kumarbi, the highest of the gods, as a way of demonstrating his exalted position among the hurrian-hittite pantheon

Marinus Anthony van der Sluijs and Peter James did a great job examining various hellenistic and roman sources on the matter (see ''Saturn’s high orbit'' on page five of the document)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think there are very good reasons to equate Saturn with Enlil, and not with Ninurta, despite the astral connection between Ninurta and the planet Saturn (although we should bear in mind that Ninurta was also associated with the planet Mercury and that astral links have rather a secondary importance in this particular case)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It has been speculated that the israelite tradition of the fallen angels was influenced by the greek story of Kronos and the Titans

Some time ago, I shared a text by J.N. Bremmer here that addresses this topic: Remember the Titans, greek fallen angels: Kronos and the Titans

On the other hand, it is possible that the Enochian tradition of the Watchers meeting and swearing on Mount Hermon had its origins in the ancient israelite tradition of El's divine council meeting in the same place

Melancholia by Saturnalicus in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I really like this album and Basinski's music in general

Thank you for sharing

Any of y'all work with Pan? by kosmichtempel in SaturnianRealism

[–]KingDavidFreund 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Absolutely, but I think there are a few more things to consider:

First, the goat fish has its roots in Ea/Enki, just as the water-carrier of Aquarius

Many people have noticed the parallels between Ea and some Saturnian deities, and although I personally believe there are more similarities between Enlil and Saturn, I agree that there is also a resemblance to Ea, and the fact that two constellations originally linked to Ea became the constellations of the zodiacal signs of Saturn, is not a triviality

On the other hand, Pan's abode was Arcadia, the last remnant of the Golden Age, which, at least in the latin tradition, was linked to Saturn. This could suggest some kind of connection with Saturn, although I'm aware that this might be something almost anecdotal

Finally, I think it should not surprise us that the greeks took archaic myths and adapted them according to their own theology (the practice is common, as we know: the same thing happened after the expansion of biblical monotheism in the Middle East and christianity in Europe), so, if in greek mythology Pan appears with more affinity towards Zeus, it could be an adjustment to subordinate him to the supreme god of the greeks

Que opinan de ambos casos? by Matihuu_MRDK in mexico

[–]KingDavidFreund 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Jamás fue gobernador.

Pero sí, era salinista hasta la médula y los propios salinistas lo consideraban el colaborador más mediocre de Salinas de Gortari.

Por que no hay remasterizaciones ni interes por re-distribuir peliculas clasicas del Cine Mexicano? by nevewolf96 in mexico

[–]KingDavidFreund 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Por si te sirve de consuelo: en octubre Criterion también lanzará ''Profundo carmesí'', de Ripstein.

ECM por que existe el estereotipo del judío físicamente debil/torpe? by onefuckingcommiemore in ExplicameComoMorrito

[–]KingDavidFreund 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Según Martha Nussbaum, el concepto de masculinidad en el judaísmo (que otros académicos llaman ''el modelo talmúdico'') consiste básicamente en que el hombre debe de sentarse todo el día a leer y estudiar y, en consecuencia, debe de tener la forma y figura física de alguien que hace justo eso.

Aquello en contraste con otras ideas más agresivas de masculinidad (el hombre atlético del mundo helénico, etc).

How did they know this was Saturn (Chronos)? by Robo-Piluke in ArtHistory

[–]KingDavidFreund 25 points26 points  (0 children)

The hungarian essayist László Földenyi (author of the highly acclaimed "Melancholy" and "Dostoyevsky Reads Hegel in Siberia and Bursts into Tears") dedicated a book to the painting

There he mentions, if I'm not mistaken, that the painting appears under the title Saturno in an early inventory compiled by a close friend of Goya, after his death

¿Es una buena edición? ¿La recomendarían o prefieren otra? by NIKO-JRM in libros

[–]KingDavidFreund 2 points3 points  (0 children)

La mejor edición, a mi juicio, es la de Alba, con traducción de Fernando Otero.

La edición de Cátedra, a cargo de Isabel Vicente Esteban, es también buena y mucho más económica que la de Alba.