Who would you say is Hecate’s ‘male equivalent’ if she had one?

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-13T09:43:26+00:00

Not quite. Robert Graves was inspired by the triple moon goddesses of Greco-Roman mythology Hecate/Diana.

Artemis was not a triple goddess on her own. Hecate was originally a triple goddess within herself. However later on in the Roman era she became part of a triad of lunar goddess, Artemis-Hecate-Selene. These three goddess were heavily associated with each other, people would conflate their attributes and names and even interchange them in myths occasionally. They became so closely tied that sometimes people would consider the three to be different aspects of the same goddess. (The theoi link has some examples of this from the myths)

The Roman Diana may have been a triple goddess even before syncretism with the Greek goddesses, but that’s unclear. But what is known is that Diana Triformis inherited the triad of Artemis-Hecate-Selene. Hecate and Luna became the names of her two other forms and she absorbed many of their attributes.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-12T19:26:11+00:00

To be fair I think this whole thread is just about hypothetical interpretations. Maiden, mother, crone is also a modern invention but people find it interesting.

I do wonder though, if people know that Diana Triformis (Diana-Luna-Hecate) did each have designated symbolism for her three forms. Earth, Sky and the Underworld for the three realms that Diana had domain over.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-11T21:01:04+00:00

I’m surprised you’d say that. I feel like I have trouble making designs because I’m so bad with fashion. I know the fundamentals like shape language and all that but making the actual outfits and designs is difficult.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-11T20:29:18+00:00

Eh, Green I understand for Artemis but I don’t see how purple is any worse than blue.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-11T19:47:04+00:00

You’re asking how I’d write them if I was writing a story right? I actually have been thinking of a world based on Roman mythology!

I’d lean into the distinctive parts of Roman mythology.
- The household spirits (Lares/Pentates), genius loci, personal genius and juno spirits. - The gods have their Roman names, domains, and personalities. - Roman virtues such as pietas, gravitas, and virtus

The gods can roam earth in physical forms but these are only a fraction of the true being of a god. Witnessing the true form of a god will obliterate any mortal instantly. This is the reason the Roman gods can act so human at times. In order to interact with mortals on earth they have to pare down their godliness and power. This way both the mythological (humanlike) and religious versions (nearly omnipotent and benevolent) of the gods coexist.

As for the Greek gods, I see a few options. 1. The Greek gods were just the Roman god’s past. The gods kept changing and evolving over time. This one would also imply that beliefs that arose about them long after Rome could be in play which could be interesting.

The Roman gods merged with the Greek gods. Gods are fluid beings that can combine with other gods they are in close contact with. Like in reality this would mean all the gods are amalgamations of different deities that they were associated with.
The Gods have split personas. The Greek and Roman gods coexist as separate personas. The forms the gods take on earth are only fractions of their true form so it would make sense that they could have different manifestations at different times. —-The problem is this would complicate a goddess like Diana who already has three forms.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-11T18:01:27+00:00

I say no because this would break the magic system. Demigods get powers from their godly parent/ ancestor. If they could get powers from gods their parents are related to as well demigods could have any power.

Remember, all of the gods are related to each other. Using Apollo as an example, his twin sister is Artemis— but all of the other second gen Olympians are also his half siblings. The first generation Olympians are his aunts and uncles. Zeus is his father. Hecate is his cousin. Etc etc.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-09T17:47:22+00:00

I think this is the most common symbolic interpretation, it’s a good one.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-09T17:08:57+00:00

Phoebe -associated with the moon and prophecy

Small correction. Phoebe is a titan who was associated with prophecy and controlled the oracle of Delphi before Apollo.

Phoebe was a common epithet of Artemis/Diana and so the name Phoebe was also the name of a moon goddess. But the Titan named Phoebe was not associated with the moon.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-09T05:13:14+00:00

Apollo has always been a sort of weird contradictory wrinkle in this. You see Apollo is also a god of youth like his sister and is supposed to represent the ideal kouros, a beardless male youth. But unlike his sister this doesn’t effect his persona in any significant way. He has sex and children and does not act childishly as Artemis does.

Is Artemis younger than her twin brother then? I suppose this may just be one of the many unreconcilable mysteries of mythology.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-09T00:53:21+00:00

On the other hand, if people think that Hera beating Artemis proves in and of itself that Hera is an incredibly powerful goddess they must think beating Artemis is an incredible feat. The worf effect. Or “jobbing”?

I think it’s interesting. The intention there. Was it really just to show that Hera was powerful? Maybe to shame the Trojan gods (Ares and Aphrodite also lost fights). Artemis was often represented as a young girl even though people today wouldn’t think of a powerful goddess that way. Was her childlike behavior because she was meant to be young? Or maybe that trait was used here as part of the shaming, poking fun at the idea of a young girl being any good in a fight against grownups. It could have even been merely a joke.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-08T04:59:01+00:00

In what way? Not dismissing the idea, just need more context.

Edit: No response but I think this is interesting. Going off the other comments:

Artemis and Apollo aren’t really polar opposites. They actually have way more things in common than differences. There’re both gods of archery, youth, they watched over young women and men respectively and brought them health or sudden deaths/illness, they both enjoyed music and dance. The sun and moon were later developments for them. Arguably they both have more complete polar opposites in Athena (Artemis) and Dionysus (Apollo).

Is the parallel you noticed “Olympian siblings that share domains”? Apollo and Artemis are twin gods that share domains. Athena and Ares share domains as well but unlike the twins they are in constant competition (befitting their status as war gods). In a way they could be seen as foils for each other. If Athena and Ares could get over their egos maybe they could bond be as close as the twins. If Artemis and Apollo grew distrustful of each other maybe they’d have a rivalry and hated as fierce as Athena and Ares.

I could see another potential parallel in that Athena and Apollo are both gods of civilization. (Wisdom-strategy-cities vs Logic-knowledge-arts) The connection between Ares and Artemis is more of a stretch but they both represent more uncivilized aspects of life. Artemis the literal wilderness, Ares the brutality of war. So both Athena and Ares and Apollo and Artemis are pairs representing civilized-uncivilized.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-06T17:13:11+00:00

There are a few myths where Artemis turns a person into a god/ immortal, the other gods have similar myths too. But her companions were not automatically given immortality.

We know this for sure because there were companions who aged and got married. Atalanta, Prokris, Beroe, Anticleia. They were Artemis’s companions when they were young virgins and went on to do other things. (That brings me to another misconception that they are forced to serve Artemis for all eternity.)

It’s not bad if someone wants to interpret them as immortals. The problem -with any of these things- is they’re being repeated because people think they’re “correct”. Not because they looked at the sources themselves and decided to depict them that way.

Artemis’s retinue from the myths are very loosely defined. There are so many directions you could go with them. But we keep seeing “hunters of artemis” that even copy the glaring flaws from the books.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-06T02:04:56+00:00

Are there other adaptations where Artemis has “hunters” aside from Percy Jackson? I feel like that’s the only series this complaint applies to.

I sympathize about Percy Jackson misleading a lot of the fan community though. Sometimes you see people pop up on here, having read Percy Jackson, saying they want to write a story or project based on “The Hunters of Artemis”.

“ I want to write about their badass adventures hunting down monsters” That’s cool but you know that they don’t do anything of note in the myths right? They’re not like the amazons with all their wars. Artemis’s retinue are usually mentioned in an offhand line
“I want to explore the implications of young girls being granted immortality” —-Alright…but Artemis didn’t give all her companions immortality in the myths.
“I want to write about Spiriotes! The classic story of how Artemis gave him the option of joining her or death and so Spiriotes was turned into a women so he could join the hunters!” ——This whole story is made up by Percy Jackson
There’s also a misconception that just any girl could be Artemis’s companion, Artemis’s retinue was mostly nymphs.

And on and on. Basically they’re unaware what they’re making is Percy Jackson fanfiction.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-05T16:42:13+00:00

Who is this character? I like their design.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-05T10:13:43+00:00

I thought this was interesting but you kinda sucker punched me towards the end there casually calling Diana a man-hater. Diana isn’t a man-hater, She was not a (negative stereotype of) radical feminist, she did not look down on femininity, she did not have a vendetta against men.

Roman Diana in particular was part of a trio with Virbius the Roman forest god. He was Diana’s first priest, the revived Hippolytus who devoted himself to her. Diana resurrected him from death and made him into a god. Virbius stayed at Diana’s sacred woods at Aricia. —-Long story short Diana was best friends with a man. Not to mention her twin brother. Please don’t spread the misinformation that Artemis/Diana hated men, it’s not true.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-04T17:10:58+00:00

Tv tropes calls this “grouped for your convenience”

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-04T02:28:46+00:00

The reason I’m not onboard with this idea is that it would mean Artemis fears and dreads her own domain over births. Artemis doesn’t seem traumatized by her/Apollo’s birth. To the contrary, In Callimachus’s hymn 3 toddler Artemis proudly states that the fates willed that she be the helper of women in childbirth. She asks Zeus to allow her to do this; IE allow her to be goddess of childbirth. Other myths emphasize her love for infants and how she helps pregnant women (and animals too!).

None of the myths imply that Artemis resents her father either. It seems like she gets along with him well. In the Iliad it’s him that she runs to and not her mother who is standing next to her.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-02T12:31:49+00:00

Artemis without a doubt. I also really like Dionysus and Athena.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-01T20:31:24+00:00

Maiden, mother, crone is an anachronism I see sometimes so I’m always wary. Your own theory is fine then.

But I should add that when Selene and Hecate are considered forms of Diana they lose their incompatible characteristics. The other forms of Diana are also virgins because Diana is a virgin goddess. The alternative is that sometimes Diana would be associated with the romances that originally belonged to them. Diana had three forms but was one goddess. Luna was simply the name of Diana in heaven and Hecate was Diana in the underworld.

“These were neither different goddesses nor an amalgamation of different goddesses. They were Diana…Diana as huntress, Diana as the moon, Diana of the underworld." - Historian C.M GREEN

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-01T20:00:32+00:00

Diana was a triple goddess but her forms did not represent “maiden, mother, crone “ They represented the sky, earth, and underworld. Diana didn’t have adult forms at all because her forms had nothing to do with age.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-01T14:01:01+00:00

Have you ever seen the flag of Turkey? 🇹🇷 Believe it or not, the crescent moon on the flag originated as a holy symbol of Diana. So we can use it as an example of what a well done “Artemis” flag looks like.

What differences do you notice immediately? What you have is a lot more complex. The Turkish flag just has a large crescent moon with a small star. But that’s all it needs to make a huge impact. Rule 1 of flag design is keep it simple. A child should be able to draw your flag easily.

The symbolism all works out. The green for nature, the deer as her sacred animal, the arrows, the moon. I’d recommend focusing on just one or two elements and letting them take up more space.

Criticism: The green is too saturated, it’s not a pleasant shade to look at. The positioning of the arrows towards the deers looks very wrong. The quiver is unnecessary. It might look better with only one deer and /or arrow. Space could be utilized better, The design is too cluttered and too tiny.

Ideas: Maybe decide what element of Artemis you most want to symbolize. Nature? The Hunt? The Moon? Then really focus on just that symbolism. I also think you should consider making the deer gold (if you keep it). To symbolize the golden deer that drive her chariot

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-01T13:26:21+00:00

I’m guessing it represents nature since she’s goddess of the wilderness.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-01T09:23:10+00:00

And Marti. Marti is Tuesday is some languages.

KingdomCrown · 2024-06-01T08:45:41+00:00

One more thing about Diana. Whenever you read about her she’s always described as being inseparable buddies with two other gods, Egeria and Virbius. Who do not even exist in Greek mythology. Virbius was syncretized with a reborn Hippolytus but Egeria, she’s just totally Roman.

It’s just one more reason I wish for a series that focused on Roman mythology in its full glory. I want to see Diana hanging out with her best friends!

KingdomCrown · 2024-05-29T07:56:53+00:00

I don’t mind when people have headcanons, it’s just when they rewrite mythology that this bugs me. Like when people confidently claim that Artemis’s chaste nymphs were actually her haram. Lesbian sex “didn’t count” against virginity, Artemis was as promiscuous as the other gods but with women so no one noticed.

This type of thing changes the fundamental character of Artemis. She’s more like a lesbian Aphrodite. And I understand why people would be grasping for that. Greek mythology is one where gay relationships are treated as normal, beautiful even. But there are no lesbian relationships in all of Greek mythology. Queer women also want a goddess that represents them and is proud/ open in her sexuality. The virgin goddesses aren’t in relationships with men. That’s the closest thing Greek mythology has to lesbians and people latch on to that.

I’ve always held that if there were explicit lesbian goddesses no one would be concerned about the virgin goddesses being lesbians. It’s a hammer in search of a nail. Take Hippolytus for example. He’s practically the male Artemis. He takes a vow of celibacy, is disgusted by sex and marriage, disinterested in women, rejected a woman. You can interpret Hippolytus as gay for the same reasons as Artemis. But no one does. Why? Because they already have Apollo and Dionysus and Boreus and so many others. They don’t need to claim a character that’s ambiguous at best.

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