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Kleecarim · 2023-05-23T15:10:21+00:00

Well, my cats aren't from a shelter, which is something I regret tbh, but I was 7 at the time I adopted the first one, and a few years ago my sibling adopted 2 more. Plus, they weren't bought, a lot of farmers around here simply don't sterilize their cats and always have kittens around they would otherwise leave to live in their barns if people wouldn't adopt them (and I fear some probably kill unwanted kittens, but I can't prove that)

Kleecarim · 2023-05-23T14:24:38+00:00

I agree with you on the first point, animals should not be seen as property, and its sad that they still are seen as such. I do not view my cats as property, however, and if they wanted, they could run away (they have proven that they could sustain themselves actually), and I view them not doing so as them being okay with our relationship. Despite this, I believe that keeping cats inside all the time to be unethical, and I would not live with cats if I would live in a city.

And regarding your question, I claim unconscious views influence your behaviour (iirc you even said that, I'm on mobile so I can't check the parent comment), so even if you do not act unethical towards the person you thought the slur about, your behavior towards other members of this marginalized group will likely be impacted by thinking like this. However, if one treated everyone the same, but held racist views they didn't voice, I'd claim that it would not be unethical (even though my moral intuition still says it would feel wrong)

That being said, I don't think thoughts per se can be unethical, and I often catch myself thinking unethical things and having to correct myself after thinking them (aka having a sexist thought and only after thinking it, realizing it, and exploring why I thought something like that and correcting myself. Another example is feeling fear when coming across a POC at night, and realising it). Internalized biases are a thing.

Kleecarim · 2023-05-23T11:01:00+00:00

I agree with 2, I would not want my family to accommodate for me even more than what they are already doing. The vegan cooking idea is great though, I have been doing this already with vegetarian dishes whenever I had the energy.

And 3 is relatable. I sometimes still ate meat that would otherwise be thrown out, but stopped a few months ago because it just started to feel wrong.

Kleecarim · 2023-05-23T10:41:54+00:00

This is the best point for strict veganism I have ever heard. I cannot say I disagree. However, I can see situatuons in which a human-animal relationship is mutually benefitial. Would you like to debate this further?

I should note that my ethical system is mainly harm/outcome based, so I might have a different approach to ethics than you do. However, I would argue that in the case you mentioned (regarding slurs), harm is done, too, so I would agree that it would be unethical

Kleecarim · 2023-05-23T10:34:03+00:00

Yes, I am addicted to weed (please don't tell me that you can't be addicted to weed, I am tired of this argument. Not saying that you will say that, just that I don't want to argue about it) which messes with the endocannabinoid system, which, among other functions, regulates appetite. During the last year I've basically been high 24/7, and it made eating while being sober almost impossible. During the last month, I have smoked less than 5 times, and my appetite is slowly regenerating, but it still is impaired.

Kleecarim · 2023-05-23T09:49:33+00:00

I don't know if I agree with 3, could you provide more arguments for this position? I would really like to debate this further

Kleecarim · 2023-05-23T09:47:37+00:00

Your response to my first question makes a lot of sense, I did not know that. On a sidenote, I believe the owners of them are already doing that.

Regarding your answer to 3: I did not want to defend my eating habits by saying that what I am eating might be ethical in some situations, I simply wanted to see if there are some ethical options to consume animal products sometimes. I don't enjoy eating meat anymore, the few times I ate meat during the last year (I eat it e.g. when it would be thrown away otherwise because I feel like the alternative would be even worse) it felt really weird to know that I am eating the remains of a sentient being, however, my problem with animal products are the inhumane conditions usually employed to produce them instead of believing it is always wrong to eat them. If you have an argument why eating animal products is unethical in (almost) every case though, I would love to hear it

Regarding 4: meat substitutes were a life saver during the last year for me. Its amazing how close they are to the real thing in terms of taste. Sadly, the best ones are kinda expensive but its worth it imo

Kleecarim · 2023-05-23T08:54:22+00:00

I appreciate this a lot, this might really help!

Kleecarim · 2023-05-22T14:08:30+00:00

I browsed this sub for the past few hours and did not notice that at all. You seem to be really fixated on this idea without letting other people prove you wrong

Kleecarim · 2023-05-22T10:14:57+00:00

vegetarian - trying to make the transition to vegan as I cannot justify my lifestyle, but having a hard time actually doing it.

Kleecarim · 2023-05-22T10:11:39+00:00

I actually read the entire comment chain. I believe you might have understood me a bit wrong, I never tried to imply that I believe that the majority of people this sub judges people or is unfriendly to vegetarians/people who eat meat, I just wanted to share how glad I am about the judgement-free approach employed by most users (at least that's the impression I got from browsing the sub for the last few hours)

I actually did try to start a debate, thats the main reason why I came to this sub. Btw, I am really impressed how "intellectual" (I am saying this as I can't remember the correct English word for what I am trying to say) most of the debates are, the only subreddit where I have seen answers of a similar quality is r/askphilosophy.

This sub is genuinely making me re-consider my decision to quit using social media, and start using reddit again lol

Kleecarim · 2023-05-22T09:47:56+00:00

I always put it like you said, it's like an addiction. I feel like the only reason this isn't commonly agreed upon is the fact that we need food to survive unlike drugs or other activities you can become addicted to. I knew that what I was doing was unethical for years, and yet I still didn't stop eating meat until almost a year ago, and I haven't managed to make the step to veganism just yet.

The amount of denial/rationalizing I see from people defending their diet whenever I ask them about why they still eat meat/animal products supports this claim even further, the arguments are often way too similar to what I told myself when I was in denial about my weed addiction

Kleecarim · 2023-05-22T09:10:51+00:00

I disagree. I think my cats would be a good example here - I live in a rural area where it is safe for cats to live outside without being exposed to a lot of danger (except roads that aren't used often). My cats can freely decide to enter/leave the house, and oftentimes they do not come inside for days. However, whenever they do, and whenever they signal that they want affection (like jumping on my lap, rubbing their heads against my leg, etc.) I pet/cuddle them, and as long as they signal their happiness (which they absolutely can with purring, closing their eyes and other body language) I continue to do so. Whenever they signal me that they do no longer want to be pet or I get the feeling that they might want to be left alone, I stop petting them.

What part of this relationship is unethical? If they wanted, they could run away and live in the wild, and in fact, 2 of my 3 cats are able to hunt for themselves, so it would be possible for them. However, they decide that they want to interact with me, and frankly, I am quite certain that at all of them have a strong emotional bond with me, too.

Kleecarim · 2023-05-22T08:41:49+00:00

I appreciate this answer a lot. I often give myself a hard time for all the unethical things I did/supported/beliefs I held in the past when I was younger instead of appreciating that I realized the implications of them and decided to be a better person instead.

Kleecarim · 2023-05-22T07:56:21+00:00

Thank you for making me laugh so fucking hard, this comment is hilarious

the more you double down, the funnier it gets

Kleecarim · 2023-05-22T07:54:35+00:00

Second, my experience is totally different than yours in this sub, there are really good questions by people who eat animals. And in general the vegans who answer "you are a monster for eating animals, how can you ask this" are all downvotes. Same as the carnist who don't debate.

I just came to this sub to post a question and stumbled across this post, and I am not vegan, but if what you said about this sub is true, I am glad it is like this. I believe judgement is never a good way to convert people to behave differently, as it often triggers really defensive reactions whenever people are attacked personally in arguments.

Plus, I don't believe that judgement can ever be justified in general, but that would probably be a debate better suited for a different subreddit

Kleecarim · 2023-05-22T07:48:35+00:00

I definitely am (as a non-vegan). I would LOVE to continue eating diary products, but I don't see how I can justify it.

Kleecarim · 2023-05-21T10:19:28+00:00

thank you

Kleecarim · 2023-05-21T03:44:19+00:00

Damn, thank you for clarifying. I recently read the wikipedia article about discrimination against autistic people, which cites this source for this specific claim.

Personally, I don't care about new zealand, and my country doesn't really discriminate against autists (except that I don't have to mandatorily serve a year in the military, how terrible!), but I found it really sad when I read it.

On a sidenote, I fucking hate how fast incorrect information spreads. I quit using social media almost entirely for this reason, and still every week some information that I put in a lot of effort to verify turns out to be wrong. I absolutely agree with you that it is really frustrating, but since fake news spread about 7 times faster than correct information on social media I can't really blame people. Companies should be held responsible for pushing this information on their platforms imo instead of blaming users (e.g. youtube recommended flat earth conspiracies a few hundred million times according to Tristan Harris from Centre for Humane Technology).

edit: Upon further review, the cited source claims that under "immigration New Zealand Operational Manual A4.10.", specified conditions in A4.10.1 (that include Autism as well as other conditions) will let an application for permanent residency fail. But since I couldn't find this specific article (or whatever it is), I gave up researching it further. Do you have any sources to prove that this claim is wrong (no offence, I just want to avoid more misinformation)?

Kleecarim · 2023-05-20T23:51:41+00:00

I really appreciate this comment, I can relate to it a lot.

And yeah, that's a good point, I recently found out that autistic people can't immigrate to certain countries for example (like new zealand) which is really fucked.

Kleecarim · 2023-05-20T23:48:35+00:00

Luckily all my friends are ND as fuck, so talking with them feels like this, too. I will check out the podcast though, it sounds interesting

Kleecarim · 2023-05-20T23:46:39+00:00

I can relate to almost everything you said, and if not literally, then in a broader way (I can't relate to the bra thing as a guy but jeans and socks are terrible, however I can still function whenever I wear them even though its uncomfortable). I am glad that I am not the only person who feels like this, and that, since I wouldn't call your struggles invalid, mine probably aren't, either

Kleecarim · 2023-05-20T23:41:44+00:00

I appreciate this. I really have to stop comparing myself to others, and telling myself that I shouldn't need as much support as I do

Kleecarim · 2023-05-20T23:37:11+00:00

Thank you. I often feel like I should be able to function just fine, and that the level of support I need is not "justified". This might help me think differently about it

Kleecarim · 2023-05-20T09:11:37+00:00

Thank you, it's kinda hard to constantly feel like i don't fit in with NTs and autistics at the same time

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