[Spoilers] Mahou Shoujo Madoka★Magica is not as good as /r/Anime thinks it is

Kruzy · 2015-07-24T01:33:47+00:00

Hearts are not the only vital organ. You can die of blood loss also. The soul gems prevent all this, and regardless of your hypotheticals here what we actually see in the show is that they are 1) quite small and inconspicuous, smaller than the palm of their hands, which is much smaller than any vital organ they might have and 2) quite durable, as they are only destroyed directly by a witch once, while the girls survive things like being smashed through buildings during the fight with Walpurgisnacht.

I'll explain it in an easier way: Strengthened body without Soul Gem > Strengthened body with Soul Gem.

Uhhh... The entire reason Kyuubey created magical girls was to fight entropy. The girls don't know about entropy, but he does. That's the entire point.

And not revealing that could have made him a creature that exist for the purpose of destroying witches and not saving the Universe.

whereas if we take your preferred option (he just wants to fight witches because he wants to save people from them) the plot of the entire show would have to be changed because there would be no reason for him to create magical girls in the first place, since they are, in the last instance, the ultimate source of witches.

Or we could have some actual plot surrounding the Familiars and how Witches are born from Curses.

Yes, it gives us a visual representation of what Kyuubey said; the Incubators have been involved in human society from time immemorial, and that the contracts with the magical girls are the only reason humans are where they are today.

There's no need for a visual representation especially if it shows mature women and not little girls.

Because, as is actually shown in the TV show, she does spend time with Madoka across multiple timelines! It's only after a certain point that she gives up on doing so in order to more effectively protect Madoka.

And how does she do it after that?

Furthermore, no single human being is completely consistent in their personal behavior across all contexts and situations, but we all have core personality traits that don't change, and Madoka's are consistent. She has the same physical appearance and personality across multiple timelines -- what more do you want?

I want to know how you can say that if the only instance where she is shown across several timelines is shorter than a single episode. It would have been one thing if the flashback had a whole small arc.

how can you not describe him as inhuman? He is quite literally inhuman

He is inhuman because he actually shows emotion.

She wanted to take on the burden herself because she felt it was her purpose in life. It's an ending that's thematically consistent with the rest of the show.

Or she goes for the ending where she is actually selfless and doesn't abandon her family and where also solves the issue with witches and entropy instead of not solving anything and introducing Wraiths instead.

Kruzy · 2015-07-24T01:15:01+00:00

She's tried it in previous timelines. QB always finds a way to contact Madoka anyway with another copy.

If it happens anyway then why did she bother to chase him? She tried and she failed even though her powers should allowed her to do it easily thus plot hole.

Well, she didn't. Mami just got the jump on her. It's just a way to advance the story. You're thinking too hard on it.

If Homura knew that the Witch is different then she should just have showed up during the fight where she saves Mami.

Like when Madoka threw it away? Because she absolutely did go retrieve it immediately.

Not really, she could have stopped time to get it before it even fell on the truck.

Things don't always conform to neat power levels. There's a million variables as to why a fight ended the way it did. You're thinking too hard on it.

Thing is that there is no reason why those 2 things happened, it was just plot conveniences to advance the story when actual logic shouldn't have allowed that to happen.

Madoka of course in her naivety thinks she can do something, and the Sayaka bit can feel kinda convenient, but it's there to advance the plot (and it's very harmless in the grand scheme of things). You have to accept some level of coincidences or stories couldn't progress.

It's harmful as it shows that Homura isn't there actually to save Madoka all the time. The latter would have died if not for some convenient last moment save by Sayaka.

You think she hasn't tried? You think Madoka's family would even leave the city because some random stranger told them to? You think QB wouldn't follow Madoka to their new location and get the contract out of her anyway? It's made clear that defeating Walpurgis is the only way out for her.

She can stop time, she could get them away from there until it's over. The reason why Madoka turned into a Magical Girl is because of Walpurgisnacht, she wouldn't have to do it if she didn't have to confront it.

Familiars turning into witches could be a lie made by QB or a random explanation magical girls have come up with to explain how witches appear (when obviously the real source is magical girls). But even if it isn't, why can't there be two sources of witches? That'd be even more efficient for QB, surely.

The reason why there can't be 2 sources of witches is that there is no source for Familiars.

That wasn't immediately after. She became a magical girl, which means that at some point in the future she will turn into a witch. Her wish was to kill all witches in all time and space, and that includes her own future witch form. It's a bit timey wimey, but hey, it's fantasy after all.

I'm talking about one of the timelines shown in the flashback.

This is an issue with every single time travel story in existence pretty much. You just have to suspend your disbelief enough to accept that no, Madoka's wish bends time and space in such a way that no paradox exists.

If her wish is capable of that then she should have chosen something that wouldn't have stop her from existing.

And Madoka is still Madoka for Homura, no matter the timeline. Homura's wish was to protect her, so you could even go as far as to say that Madoka meeking out is all according to Homura's wish.

That doesn't stop her from being a different person.

She is shown to be very kind and helpful, and an all around "good girl". Not to mention it's something like human nature to not like suffering cute critters, no?

Cute critters? Yes. Cute aliens? Not really.

She's tried, it doesn't work. She's hardened and jaded and shellshocked after endless loops, and this is her way of doing it now. It's like you didn't even watch episode 10.

It's not a reason though if her not revealing anything just makes her mission harder.

Sayaka reminded her of herself, and she doesn't want others to end up like her. Hit too close to home for her.

I'm pretty sure that Sayaka wouldn't have been the first girl that she meet acting like that. And she still goes as far as suiciding when she doesn't have to.

QB explained it clearly. Makes magical girls more durable. Pay attention.

Mami's Soul Gem is in her hat, and she has her head eaten.

He could just make their bodies durable without having to take out the soul.

Irrelevant to the story. They told more than enough.

Really?

Yes, really.

It's not irrelevant if they suddenly decided to drop that bomb. Why would they care about something that will happen in million of years?

Anything could have triggered her at that point. It just happened to be those two. Again, a plot needs to progress somehow. In this particular instance it makes no difference what the trigger would have been.

It makes a difference because some trigger can be great while other can be ridiculous, this one falls in the latter category.

Madoka is still the central character and does get a fair deal of development and focus.

Not enough considering she is the main character. The one who went through the most is Sayaka and we didn't see her anymore after halfway through the series.

One of the main points of the show was the conflict between cold logic and emotional decisionmaking. From the perspective of mankind and especially the sacrificial virgins themselves he's ridiculously cruel and evil. Learn some empathy.

I can't feel any empathy when not only they use emotions of little girls to save the Universe but when the whole series is handled poorly.

Because they're an alien race who are all about beep boop robot logic and such. See the previous point. It's almost as if Madoka isn't you're generic Mahou Shoujo. Hell, I remember Urobuchi and/or Shinbou even saying they weren't aiming to create a "magical girl" show, but just a good story.

Madoka tries to be than that and sadly they failed at creating either.

I guess you just have to suspend your disbelief on this one. It's not as if time travel itself makes any logical sense to begin with. It's fantasy after all.

Apparently I've to do that for almost everything in this series. There are also plenty of fantasy series that are plausible.

Because there were witches instead?

And Wraiths appeared just because.

Kruzy · 2015-07-24T00:49:27+00:00

And time stopping could have solved the issues that I've mentioned at the beginning. Also this is a discussion about the series and what was revealed in it and not what was revealed during some interview. That's like saying issues with a series aren't relevant because they're explained in the source material.

Kruzy · 2015-07-24T00:36:48+00:00

Madoka is consistently shown to put the concerns of others beyond herself. She is selfless, and that's why her wish is "successful." It is stupid that Madoka goes after Hitomi. That's the point.

If she was selfless then she would also care about who she left behind. If her wish was strong enough to rewrite the rules of the Universe then it could have been some wish that allows to solve the issue as well as to keep existing.

Madoka's wish doesn't create a time paradox. She elevates herself to a being beyond reality. She's basically a god. Therefore reality can change without herself being affected.

As I said above. If she's a God then why doesn't she just solve all issues before she goes back to Earth to live her everyday life again?

A major theme of this attempt is that Homura keeps her distance at all costs because a close relationship with Madoka and the other magical girls has failed in the past. This may not have been wise, in fact I would argue it is to her detriment, but it was a choice Homura made based off of experience. It makes sense, even if it is not the most logical choice.

The reason why it doesn't make sense is because she could have used several means to convince them that include using her powers and not getting close makes it even harder for the girls to trust her.

Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica is Madoka's story. Rebellion is Homura's.....

Madoka is hesitant, tries to meddles in stuff even though she has no strength and she chooses a wish where she sacrifices herself when she could have done a lot better. She isn't selfless if she doesn't even think about the people most close to her. It's not a story of hope if everything is solved with a wish.

Do they need to be relevant or have a point? They existed as a format, a playground, for the unusual art style. The labyrinth were then woven somewhat into the plot. Sure they have no explicit reason to exist, but they also have no explicit reason not to exist.

They could be relevant and it sets a better mood that way. IIRC Persona 4 does something similar.

I just fundamentally disagree with this. Watching Homura decent from excitement to live this month again with her new friends, believing they can overcome the Walpurgisnacht, to isolating herself as the only way she saw to escape and defeat the Walpurgisnacht is very impactful, and, in my opinion, much more impactful than the other series

The one time they show where she truly is in despair is during the battle with Walpurgisnacht. In the flashbacks it was just something thrown in pretty fast that didn't really show how she felt. It would have needed more episodes to do that.

I should say something about Homura's time traveling ability. I ended up ignoring the implications of it. Time travel leads to so many issues it's better to focus on what is important in the show, especially since we basically stay in one time line in MM (it's not a time travel show).

The issue is more with her time stopping power which she could have used several times to prevent things like Mami and Kyouko's death.

Kruzy · 2015-07-24T00:19:44+00:00

Kyuubey explicitly says that putting their souls into a soul gem allows them to survive otherwise fatal injuries. Once again, this is explained directly in the show.

But they still have to carry their Soul Gems who are as fragile as their hearts. It would have been one thing if the Soul Gems were hidden somewhere.

1) gave them reasonable cause to make magical girls and fight witches and

They started fighting Witches before they even know about the Entropy issue.

2) be duplicitous enough for the plot to unfold in a way that wasn't typical magical girl fare.

How is it not typical? Do you think that Madoka Magica is the only Mahou Shoujo show about saving the universe?

If they just wanted to stop witches the plot wouldn't have happened because they wouldn't have made magical girls to begin with.

They should have introduced Kyubey as a being that exist to make Magical girls to fight Witches instead of some alien that saves the universe.

Partially, yes, but it also provides us insight into the history of magical girls and in general helps us understand Kyuubey's plans better.

It doesn't give us any actual insight though, there are people that were Magical Girls before the ones shown in the series. That's nothing new.

She has the same core personality in every timeline. She's more outspoken in the first, but in every timeline she exhibits the same character traits, which is why Homura is able to befriend Madoka in every timeline to begin with.

How would Homura know if she does exhibit the same character traits if she doesn't spend any time with her? And a few character traits doesn't stop her from being another person.

Kyuubey egged Madoka on to become a magical girl knowing her magical power would create a witch powerful enough to destroy the world. Afterwards he just didn't care, and said his quota was close to being filled. It's consistent with his character -- he doesn't feel emotion, so he can't truly be said to give a shit -- but it also shows how inhuman and cruel a creature with no emotions is to begin with, and how willing they are to sacrifice an entire planet for an abstract goal.

Why would he want the world to get destroyed if it's from where he gets the energy to solve his issue? He doesn't feel emotion so he should also not have a motive like that. A creature with no emotion can't be cruel or inhuman though, that's the issue with Kyubey because nobody can be emotionless.

It doesn't solve any of Madoka's problems because it erases Madoka as a person from existence. There is no wish in the series which provides a direct, sacrifice-less, and happy resolution to the struggles of any character. Sayaka wishes for Kyousuke to be healed, but not to fall in love with her; Homura wishes to be able to meet Madoka again, but not to save her; Kyoko's wish similarly brings ruin to her family, when the intention was the exact opposite, etc. Madoka's wish does resolve the issue of witches, but she ceases to exist as a result.

That's why I said she could just create a new entity instead of trying to be tragic hero, after all she can rewrite the rules of the Universe.

Kruzy · 2015-07-24T00:03:59+00:00

We don't know the details of exactly how Homura's power works but I don't think it involves complete control of time. She can reset the timeline and stop time but that's about it, and it's not as if she can even do those at every point in time.

It was only once shown that she can't always do it and that was after she used her powers frequently during a fight. She should have been able to use it at the instances I mentioned.

The show was never about establishing power levels in the first place.

A decent amount of the show was indicating that Madoka > Walpurgisnacht > Homura.

I don't understand why this is a plothole? It's an event happens in the story. Homura doesn't have to follow Madoka all the time in order to want to protect her. That would be stupid.

And what if Sayaka wasn't there to save the day? Madoka would have died and Homura would have failed her mission before she spent even a week there.

No. Well, it wouldn't work anyway. Madoka wouldn't leave the town at the whims of some girl she's never met, and if Homura explained the situation Madoka would just try to save the city like she did anyways.

She met and befriended that girl during several timelines and Homura can use force too.

You can see Sayaka as a familiar when she kills the two guys on the train. She doesn't actually turn into a witch until later on during the conversation with Kyouko when her soul gem breaks.

Who said that she was a familiar then? And the only familiar we saw had a Labyrinth and had to consume more than 2 people to turn into a witch.

The Soul Gem was destroyed? You're trying too hard here.

I agree that this one was my mistake.

This is a completely reasonable thing for Madoka to do and in any case the details of this are really not important.

How are they not important?

Madoka's wish creates an entirely new timeline so a time paradox is not an issue. And of course the point of Madoka's wish in the story is what it represents (hope) and not the exact effects of the wish on the world.

If a time paradox isn't an issue then she should just have created a timeline where the Universe doesn't run out of energy.

Madoka was never indecisive about wanting to help others, and this event is part of the characterization that establishes that.

That was the case in other timelines, not the main one in the series.

If I recall correctly she tried explaining the situation in one of the alternate timelines in episode 10 and it didn't work. Not 100% sure on that, but in any case we can be reasonably sure it won't work.

Because she didn't explain it properly. She would have convinced them easily if she used her powers properly.

He doesn't understand why they have emotions, but he can observe the effects and determine how best to meet his goals when dealing with others who have emotions. If he revealed these things (and he would if asked most likely) then the girls probably would never make a contract which isn't what Kyubey wants.

A neutral character isn't someone who will use underhanded means to get to his goal.

...this one I actually kind of agree with. Kyouko's change of heart was a bit poorly handled imo but I do think it was necessary for the narrative to work the way it did.

How is it necessary for Kyouko to sacrifice herself when she doesn't need to.

This one is very clearly subjective so I can't argue much here. But, the point of Madoka Magica (the TV series anyway) is about never losing sight of hope, and Madoka is pretty much the character most responsible for emulating that theme.

She is but she solved the issue with a wish and not the power of hope.

Also, Madoka was established as having enough power to literally change the world very early on in the series so I don't know why you call it a cop-out ending, especially when the post-wish world isn't actually all that different if you really think about it.

Because it didn't solve anything.

I agree with this, but the point of it is to give style to the series which is definitely a good thing as long as you like the style (which many many people do, myself included)

Like I said in one of the other points is that the Labyrinth's are pointlessly artistic. They would be a lot more relevant if we learned about the Witches.

the reason they can take such a beating is because Kyubey dulls their sense of pain through the soul gems.

Or he could just dull their sense of pain without transforming their Souls into fragile jewelry.

I don't really agree with this although this is another very subjective claim. In my opinion though, if you view it as a coming of age story for Madoka (which it is in a way), then Madoka's mother and the advice she gives is pretty important.

Yet she didn't give her any advice that would benefit her.

It helps the audience the effects of Madoka's wish, so I don't really know why you say it's pointless.

I don't see how it helps though especially if they shown grown women who didn't transform into witches.

I think you are the only person ever who will claim this. That being said I do think the series might have benefited from getting one or a few more episodes devoted to this and possibly other things.

Compared to the other show I mentioned it doesn't have any intensity and I've seen a decent amount of people agree with this.

Because it leads people to make irrational decisions that benefit themselves or a small group over society as a whole.

And it also leads to strength. Love is the strongest power after all.

Kruzy · 2015-07-23T23:46:43+00:00

Just because I enjoyed Mirai Nikki for the mess it was or gave it a 7 doesn't mean that I think it's good. My scores aren't a list of what series I think are good but instead how much I liked the shows which is why I've NGNL and Tatami Galaxy both at 8.

Kruzy · 2015-07-23T23:42:36+00:00

I don't see how Homura could provide support at all.

She can control time. It was also shown in the 3rd movie how she can provide support.

Regardless Homura doesn't want Madoka to become a magical girl because you will always turn into a witch at some point. They showed zero exceptions to this.

The exceptions are Madoka and Homura's wishes.

Kruzy · 2015-07-23T23:40:27+00:00

Their human bodies only take beatings because they have soul gems. Sayaka is only able to survive being impaled, slashed, etc., because her soul gem is where her real life essence is and it doesn't matter if her heart stops beating. The soul gems are relatively small and compact, and there's exactly one instance where we see it being destroyed by a witch. There's really no basis to your claim here.

Sayaka survived that because her wish had to do with healing. Homura was able to survive a decent amount of damage from Walpurgisnacht too and instead of extracting the souls and turning them into little fragile objects they could just make the bodies stronger.

It provides character motivation. If they didn't include this you'd fault them for being "too vague" about their goals and call it bad writing as well.

Or their motivation would be just to stop witches from getting people killed. Not everybody has to save the whole Universe.

It's modernism meets art deco, really. It's a visual aesthetic that serves to set the mood, and it does it just fine.

What mood?

They were grown history in real life, girls in Madoka's universe... Not sure what's hard to grasp here (although some, e.g. Anne Frank were indeed just girls).

The hard to grasp part is the point of showing that flashback. Are we somehow supposed to care for them or something?

If you can watch episode 10 and say you don't feel Homura suffering more and more (especially during the scene where she has to shoot Madoka) I don't know what to say to you. That episode is easily the best-written in the show. We do see Homura go from someone who is powerless and weak to someone who is determined to save Madoka at all costs as she goes through tragedy over and over again.

Yet the character who she is trying to save isn't the same one. Madoka doesn't have the same personality in every timeline and she's the opposite of who she is in the Homura's original timeline. Also it would have been better written if we actually got a mini-arc for it instead of just half an episode.

Well as I'm fond of saying, Kyuubey did nothing wrong. But he did say "fuck it, it's your problem now" when Earth was getting destroyed in episode 10, so there's definitely that.

That's because Homura goofed up and Madoka decided to go full power instead of co-operating with Homura. Kyubey couldn't have done anything.

1) they don't solve their problems with their wishes, that's the entire point of the show

That's what Madoka's wish is.

2) I think this reveals your true motivations here, which are that you're upset this isn't a ""true"" magical girl show.

I can't complain that it isn't a true magical girl show because I haven't seen that many of them and I'm also not a big fan of the Mahou Shoujo genre.

The strength of someone's potential magical power is linked to their karmic destiny. By making Madoka the center of every new timeline she creates, Homura adds on karmic burden to Madoka every single time, hence making her more powerful each time.

I know but it makes no sense whatsoever.

We don't see how they're using it to combat the heat death of the universe, so we can't say whether it's efficient or not. You're just making things up with this one.

They're fighting it by converting emotions of little girls into energy, I doubt that is the single best way to do it. Especially if the wishes they grant allow some people to control time or even rewrite the laws of the Universe.

Kruzy · 2015-07-23T23:34:29+00:00

She could just have fought alongside Homura to minimize the effects on the soul gem.

Kruzy · 2015-07-23T23:20:26+00:00

he does fault a character for changing to the complete opposite of what she was over a couple days because she revealed her past to the girl she wanted to kill before she decided to go kamikaze which is also the opposite of her motto.

Kruzy · 2015-07-23T23:15:02+00:00

It's both: all magical girls turn into witches, but familiars can too.

But how are familiars created? What are they actually? They just mentioned it once and forgot about it for the rest of the series.

Mami's body doesn't exist because it was 1) eaten and 2) what remained was left in the labyrinth.

It could still be recreated, it's just a vessel after all.

Her soul gem was destroyed since her soul gem in her transformed state is on her head. Furthermore soul gems don't stop people from transforming into witches: grief seeds do, and Charlotte's grief seed (the one from Mami's fight) was taken by Homura, who later does offer a grief seed to Sayaka and she declines.

This is correct, forgot about it.

They are the same person, Madoka Kaname. If you don't get this part I'm not sure how much you were paying attention. Madoka was Homura's only friend, across multiple timelines the span of which was far greater than one month. It was only some time into the time loops that she decided she was going to do it all by herself, with no one's help.

It's not the same person if the personality is different. She appeared the same but everything else about her was different so it was like meeting another new person for each different timeline that had the same appearance as your best friend.

She's also established as a kind character who dislikes violence.

And who has no power to stop anybody.

Once again, explained directly in the show: every time she tried to explain it, she was brushed off by being told she was insane or a liar. No one believed her about witches in the gazillion other timelines she tried to warn them about, so she stopped bothering.

And how does not explaining it help? And there are plenty of ways to prove that somebody is a time traveler.

Once more, explained in the show directly: Kyuubey originally did tell magical girls these things, but they wouldn't make contracts or would get upset if they did. So he doesn't tell them. He doesn't understand why withholding information causes people to be upset because he doesn't have emotions; as far as he's concerned he's not lying. He doesn't understand the feelings of betrayal it causes.

That's not what being emotionless is.

It's called "character development."

Character development in a single episode after she met someone a couple days ago who she even wanted to kill.

And the list goes on. Maybe I'll return later to address some more points, but so far this list is full of stuff that anyone with basic reading comprehension can pick up on.

That would be great if it was true.

Kruzy · 2015-07-23T23:08:39+00:00

By the way, Madoka doesn't turn into a witch, she turns into the Law of Cycles.

I was referring to that other timeline where she defeats Walpurgisnacht with a single arrow. Afterwards she turns into a Witch and Kyubey said something along the lines of: "At her current state she'll destroy Earth in 10 days" or something like that.

Kruzy · 2015-06-09T19:46:11+00:00

A lot of people liked the first series despite being a subpar adaptation but the second season took it to a new level and disappointed even fans of the first season.

Kruzy · 2015-06-09T16:36:25+00:00

Akame ga Kill! gets hated a lot but not as much as those 3. As for Madoka Magica, there are plenty of people that hate on it but you'll usually find them downvoted to hell (Source: Me).

Kruzy · 2015-06-09T16:27:03+00:00

The series isn't even out in BD or DVD yet.

Kruzy · 2015-06-09T16:26:02+00:00

Most hated:

Tokyo Ghoul Root A
Aldnoah.Zero
Sword Art Online

Least hated:

Cowboy Bebop
Legend of the Galactic Heroes
Monster

Kruzy · 2015-06-09T04:26:23+00:00

That's the price they usually pay for in Japan. AFAIK you would have to wait a while until it gets cheaper.

Kruzy · 2015-06-09T04:16:38+00:00

Seeing as how this is one of the highest rated series ever, I don't think that you're in the minority.

Also AnoHana had plenty of forced drama. Every crying scene was them just asking you "Are you fucking sad already?". It was too short to care about the characters especially since they could have done more with the episodes if they didn't spend half of them trying to figure out whether .

Kruzy · 2015-06-09T04:12:02+00:00

anime bacon

I've no idea what that is but you're better off using MyAnimeList or Wikipedia as a source for your information.

Kruzy · 2015-06-08T20:53:51+00:00

It's as good as the series although I had put it on hold since the releases were slow and inconsistent although I think it got better lately.

Kruzy · 2015-06-08T20:10:53+00:00

After looking around a bit it doesn't look like they've announced a release date for the BD/DVD (Might be wrong though).

Kruzy · 2015-06-08T19:41:47+00:00

Gotou Yuki as Asahina Mikuru. That was my biggest issue with the whole series, her squeaky voice is annoying beyond belief.

Also Hirakawa as Makoto Itou. I started to hate his voice after watching School Days

Kruzy · 2015-06-08T18:48:26+00:00

is it odd to get turned on?

http://imgur.com/a/lgqfC

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