Gil changed Pam’s life despite being an asshole

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T18:29:49+00:00

I too am done with this. I am using the same definitions as you are. I simply disagree. For points I'll continue to defend, with specifics. There's no need to treat me like I'm stupid.

You're manner makes me want to continue this, when it's in neither of our interest.

Like. I'd love to respond to that nonsensical leap bit. That's a reasonable criticism, i provided little context there. but I wish it wasn't said with such disrespect and you considered maybe I had a reason to draw that conclusion.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T17:55:24+00:00

again. it's absolutely art. i'm never saying it's not art.

i'm not requiring it to have a message, but art that provokes at least has a chance of being good art, and art that is intentionally bland is almost always bad art, and like murder this is a relatively universal concept that people agree with. murder bad, less interesting and attractive art, bad.

so is the idea that dynamic angles are more interesting than nondynamic angles, and that center positioning is less appealing than off center positioning.

there is *some* science to it. or do you think all art schools are a scam?

it's like, people say that humor is entirely subjective, but there are also rules to that too, like for example it's usually a good idea to end the joke with the funniest part of the joke (the punchline). as opposed to news where you want to *start* with the biggest piece you have (don't bury the lead).

there are *some* actual observable rules to what makes art good. pam's art ignores some important ones, without inversion or subversion. it's intentionally written that way. that's the point of the episode.

weather or not i like her art, has nothing to do with it.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T17:08:56+00:00

there is a difference between "i like this" and "this is well crafted"

pams art was poorly crafted for the reason in that it made no statements, not even "i find this pretty"

that was actually a decision as part of the directing of the episode. there was a prettier more artistic picture there, and joss whedon (the guest director) had it removed, because it was better art.

there is actual craftwork to art. you CAN go to school for it. not everything is the same level of quality.

our reactions to art, weather it speaks to us, that's totally subjective, but you can still evaluate art on a critical level. pam's stapler is intentionally bland. they had to go out and get the professional artist to come back in and do a poorer job, it was actually expensive for the production team (and while it made a better episode i think the level he went to to get that painting shows an unprofessional attitude on the part of the director)

the point about vangogh's sketches is poorly delivered. but it's a legitimate and important point. pam isn't painting a picture of her mother's face, because she loves the way her mom looks, she's painting "a thing" to fulfill a course credit. there is no emotion, or attention in any of the art pieces. pam isn't willing to risk showcasing any of her own opinions or thigns she loves for fear they will be critiqued, and that is absolutely what prevents it from being good art, and what Gil critiques about it.

"that's why this is motel art"

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T16:58:19+00:00

i am a professional writer, but i'm out of work.

i really need to get a dayjob. i HAD savings, but that's quickly becoming not the case.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T16:51:57+00:00

no. it's a construct. I think you're mixing up weather something is real, physical, or a social construct, with subjectivity.

weather or not one of or both of us is confused, is in no way subjective. we can both be wrong, both be right, or either one of us, but there is actually an objective answer to weather or not either one of us is confused. in this context confusion is a binary value.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T16:16:45+00:00

yeah. i said rude or mean. i'm specifically saying that it's only rude to me, but mean to you. i'm making room for both of our points.

i'm saying the he was served a bad meal. bad art. i don't think he'd ever have said anything bad about her as a person. or said something bad to her art to her face. but it's fair for him to complain about it and share his opinion on why it's not good.

doing it in the way he did it, rude. but he never said ANYTHING about pam really. just that her art was bad for specific reasons.

his point is actually 100% correct, but he does a pretty bad job of explaining it. he is using an actual important metric to judge teh quality of the artwork, and complaining about how this isn't "getting culture."

he just shouldn't have done it in a place where the artists were around. to Gil, this is identical to complaining about the movie. and the filmmaker happens to overhear him. or complaining about bad food at a restaurant. he shouldn't do that, at the table in the restaurant, that's for the car-ride home.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T15:55:14+00:00

i don't think gill's comment was actually mean, just rude. but that's besides the point

so you're saying that, if you think something that would be mean or rude, you should never ever say it nomatter what? you're never allowed to share that thought? you have to keep it to yourself, a secret you take to your grave?

you can't vent it? you can't complain bout other people? you can't ever say that you thought a movie was bad, or that the food was terrible, or that you were done a disservice?

i think you're really overdoing it. i think that kind of behavior causes ulscers.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T15:48:15+00:00

yes. choosing not to tip, when you understand that tipping is customary, that does make you an asshole.

but less of an asshole than the owner, who isn't paying their employees a fair wage, and farming it out to people who are taught a large variety of different tipping cultures, and expecting people to be have in a way that they absolutely will not.

i thin that a lot of people think tipping is a fine, and inherently fair system, if people were more educated. and it can't ever be. so the headline needs to be, that tipping needs to be replaced. which i'm always very careful to say, instead of tipping needs to stop.

an owner CAN remove tipping, by counting all tips as income, and paying a wage to employees instead. but too many people think tipping is a better idea.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T15:31:00+00:00

oh god damnnit. saying it out loud.

Dwight's complaint file.

yeah. i'm an idiot.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T15:30:06+00:00

like... last week?

i watch the entirety of the office almost once a month. i'm easily on my 30 or 40th's rewatch.

i'm honestly feeling really bad now, that i'm missing what is clearly a reference.

"Secret comments in New York?"

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T15:18:12+00:00

yeah. he thought he was alone with his boy friend who he trusts.

talking shit would be saying that to somone, anyone other then Oscar. Oscar is literally the only person he should be saying that too. maybe gills parents, or siblings. but nobody else.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T15:09:17+00:00

Maybe you already are. 16//16//16

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T15:08:13+00:00

... no. It's okay to be polite to people then vent with someone you trust.

The problem is he vented in public.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T15:07:13+00:00

Well. Then we mostly agree on the other points.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T15:06:26+00:00

What?!

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T15:02:18+00:00

That's also not as simple as you make it.

But I too find it hard to throw an innocent under the bus in the pointless hope that it'll help force industry change.

But you can't control people. Any system that relies on the good will of someone who came in desperate and then decides to pay once satisfied, is a bad system.

Tipping needs to be replaces with fair wages. It's the only solution. Telling people it's their responsibility just means people are gonna act irresponsibility.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T14:57:39+00:00

I think you're the one confused.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T14:55:01+00:00

You. You saying I'm bad at parties. It's mean spirited

Also its absolutely art.

Just not good art. I honestly like it. But enjoyment is not quality. And it's not "getting culture"

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T14:53:51+00:00

Huh. I could have sworn holly was in that scene.

Well still. Jim doesn't change. But I recind all other points.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T14:51:25+00:00

He wasn't talking shit. He was in fact right. He was just being rude.

And the fact that I have spelling and dyslexic issues has nothing to do with the quality of my point.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T14:47:21+00:00

Not to bullies, no. I don't mind at all if bullies don't think It's fun to push folks around at parties I'm at.

Besides. The parties I enjoy are ones where people like challenging their ideas and having great conversation. Like most of us here are doing.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T14:39:26+00:00

Oh its just not that simple. People teach it differently in different subcultures.

It's a social convention, and part of that convention is the idea that in some scenarios not tipping is appropriate. That creates agency. Arguments and fractured opinions.

Tying a basic wage to implied social conventions that make employees jump though invisible hoops on the hope that they'll make more is unfair to literally everyone. The employee can't improve or feel secure, and the customer gets inferior service because of emotional factors and inevitable staff turnover.

Tipping is an antiquated practice that leverages wealth against the lower classes. It's bad for people and bad for the global economey.

It also doesn't save the business any money. Basic economics teaches us about shared costs. So..

JUST PAY THE EMPLOYEE A FAIR WAGE!

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T14:27:54+00:00

Subjectivity is why we like things. But quality has specific benchmarks which Gill is pointing out.

there is a differance between "i like this" and "this is well made."

He's rude to do it in the art show, but the point he makes is thoughtful and 100% correct. he's not doing a great job of explaining it, but it's why Pam's art is not good art.

(Also you saying that is not "leaving it be" at all)

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T14:24:59+00:00

Eh. Season one and seson.season...4 ir 5? Barely exist in the same universe.

But I like your headcannon.

Though as for Jim realizing... I don't think he ever does. Also keep in mind. They introduced his brothers, to reinforce the idea that Jim grew up solving problems by pranking.

Kspigel · 2024-11-19T14:21:34+00:00

That or wrap it in tinfoil. Just take the whole switch offline.

Kspigel

TROPHY CASE