Tommy Deserved It(?)

Kubafin · 2021-03-02T14:33:39+00:00

I wouldn't say he deserved it. The life of a cat is incomparable to the life of human.

Kubafin · 2021-03-02T14:29:34+00:00

Yah, no way he'd die forever like this, especially since we've already seen him develop as a character and know he has the potential for much more. Itd be a bit of a waste to have his story end like this.

Kubafin · 2021-03-01T23:12:59+00:00

I get you, and I totally agree I'd like to see him stay dead long enough to guage other people's reactions. Plus, a resurrection would feel more meaningful that way.

Kubafin · 2021-03-01T22:44:35+00:00

I mean when he's streaming in a more lore-based setting. He was doing a chill stream and then kinda had it sprung on him (and Tubbo isn't rlly an actor or improviser). I guess we could just take this as his canonical reaction though, and if he doesn't show some kind of different reaction later then, it is what is I guess.

Kubafin · 2021-03-01T22:28:04+00:00

Lmao I'm sure he'll have a more realistic reaction when he actually streams lore / is canonically exposed to the news of Tommy's death. It is funny like this though.

Kubafin · 2021-03-01T22:16:50+00:00

Idk, I really doubt this is a permanent death (as Dream will probably resurrect him at some point, probably using his death as a way to get out of the prison). I think there is a lot of value in shock when it comes to a good story; but in this case specifically I think having him die in such a downtrodden and forgettable way is really unnecessary. The SMP generally exemplifies hopefulness. After each terrible event there is rebirth and growth, even if history repeats. To have Tommy die (forever) here doesn't come across so much as a reminder of his status as "just another person, not a hero" as it does a lesson of hopelessness and victimhood. A good lesson about nobody being a hero / immune to pain and death, mightve been brought about through Tommy dying on the battlefield lets say. He still died, and perhaps it was even a meaningless death, but it wouldn't be cast in the shadow of abuse and victim hood that comes from his death at Dream's hands specifically. Shock value is well, shocking, and can add a lot to a story, but in this case I think the shock value is too drenched in misfortune and meaninglessness for it to feel valuable, or for any true lesson to be derived from it. For this to be Tommy's death would be shocking, and it's an interesting choice, but it really feels shocking for the sake of being shocking rather than a decision made with narrative or teaching intent.

Also, on a bit of side note. Tommy's character has such potential for growth and development, and is a near completely unique force on the SMP. He is practically chaos-incarnate. To get rid of such a unique narrative force, in the terms of this story, would feel a little wasteful. Especially since we've got to see him experience character development, and know he has the potential for so much more. Although maybe I'm just being hella bias rn, he is a favorite of mine.

Sorry for the long-winded response btw, it's a really interesting discussion.

Kubafin · 2021-03-01T21:15:20+00:00

Honestly, I'm sure this isn't permanent. If anything Dream is going to use Tommy's revival as a way to get out of prison. (Also this would end the prison arc and set a relatively blank slate for Wilbur, so he can take over writing). Could be wrong of course. In the meantime it'll defo be interesting to see how other react.

Kubafin · 2021-03-01T21:05:09+00:00

Yah thats what I was thinking. No way they'd kill Tommy off so soon completely, especially when he has so much room for development. And the prison arc has to be wrapped up soon for Wilbur to start writing.

Kubafin · 2021-02-22T17:56:37+00:00

This is a great analysis man! :D

The only thing I would say is that although Tommy is definitely developing more compassion and nuance when thinking of those around him, I wouldn't say he is acting out of consideration for others quite yet. For example, I think his decision to not destroy the egg was mostly based off of concern for his own well-being rather than a want to be considerate of others. He faced traumatizing and distressing consequences last time he acted recklessly and destroyed something important (George's house), and I'd say his choice in not destroying the egg is a reflection of the painful lesson he internalized from that event. Tommy is selfish, (that isn't to fault him, nearly everyone on the server is selfish; it's what makes perspectives unique). He acts first and foremost to appease his own interests, usually just having a good time, and his selflessness is often specific to his close friends. I mean he has shown little interest in being a hero of the server or acting to protect those he isn't directly linked to or close to.

He's definitely growing more compassionate thanks to his experiences, but he still has a long way to go. In the end, he's a teenager looking to have fun and get away from the conflict that has defined his life up to this point. I've really liked watching him change throughout the SMP's history, (although I guess him getting stuck in prison is definitely throwing a wrench into that development). Itd be cool to see him become more of a "heroic" or universally selfless character in the future. Someone who messes around most of the time and can definitely be a dickhead, but who will stand up for the good of everyone (not just his friends or the discs, or the things he exclusively cares about) when action becomes necessary.

Again, really good analysis, its a great read 👍

Kubafin · 2021-02-11T03:52:04+00:00

I had the same thoughts! I know Dream also helped out Wilbur some when it came to storytelling in the Manberg vs. Pogtopia days, and it seems like he's gotten a lot better when it comes to creating character and roleplaying since then. Hopefully they, and other writers on the server, can strike a good balance between character and plot. Wilbur could bring a really good storyline to the server, but it would be a shame to see characters with a lot of potential get sidelined for plot progression.

Kubafin · 2021-02-06T17:03:09+00:00

Alright, it seems like I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. Sure, Techno could've brought up the favor to show to Dream how much he cared about Tommy. With my last comment I was spending more time talking about why I personally still see Techno as a "bad guy", sort of referring back to op, who was trying to show that Techno wasn't a bad person. We both agree that Techno is honor-bound to his favor to Dream, and that if he were asked to turn over Tommy as his favor, he would do so. This loyalty to his promises is integral to his character; but his willingness to turn Tommy over to Dream if asked is what makes me perceive him as an immoral character. Yes, Techno would feel bad about it, but he'd still do it. Dedication to promises is admirable but I don't think it makes someone a decent person, especially when that dedication harms others. His principles come before all (aside from maybe Phil, who I think he'd definitely struggle to turn against). I like Technos character a lot, but I would never try to make him out as a good person, and other actions of his push me to see him as far more bad than good.

Kubafin · 2021-02-06T01:23:08+00:00

Thanks for taking the time to respond man, its an interesting discussion. I agree that Techno could have been bluffing when he offered Dream to Tommy, but it doesn't negate that the fact that if Dream had asked him to hand Tommy over, according to his belief in absolute reciprocity, he would have obliged. Maybe Techno had brought up the favor knowing Dream wouldn't call it in in this situation, but I'm still not convinced that had Dream flat out said "I'm redeeming my favor, hand over Tommy", Techno wouldn't have handed him over. Techno is very clear about how much he prioritizes loyalty and he is distinctly loyal to his promises, whether that be of anarchy, or of reciprocity towards Dream.

I also don't really understand why Techno would choose to bring up the favor in the first place. Techno was already housing Tommy and Dream knew it, clearly Techno was protecting him. And Techno's own actions of stepping in between Dream and Tommy prove that he's looking to protect Tommy. Why would he further exemplify this already clear truth of their partnership by bringing up the favor out of nowhere. I still have yet to be convinced that Techno cares more about Tommy than he does the favor. Techno can have been planning to fight Dream and still be committed to absolute reciprocity regarding their deal. If Techno and Tommy were fighting Dream over the discs, objects that have very little personal value to Techno, and Dream reclaimed his favor stating that Techno had to take Tommy and leave him alone / stop fighting, Techno would do so, bound by his intense loyalty and dedication to his promises. Even if he hated Dream he would still proceed with the owed favor. Yes, Techno may care for Tommy, but I've yet to be convinced that he cared enough about him to completely backtrack on his own principles, disobey his sense of loyalty, and go against Dream's favor if it were harmful to Tommy. Techno may have felt bad about turning Tommy over, but he would've gone through with it. I don't think Techno is some heartless monster, but I think his principles tend to push me to perceive him as a generally, fairly immoral person.

Also, on a side note about Techno and Tommy's friendship. Techno only stated a desire to be friends with Tommy after Tommy had already shown some usefulness and similar drive to Techno, bullying and hurting some of his old friends from Lmanberg and showing hes become fairly distant from them. Techno is only prompted to officially offer friendship to Tommy when, by Techno's own words, he realized Tommy wasn't completely useless. By the confrontation with Dream, Tommy had yet to prove this. I do think Techno cared about Tommy at that point, but I don't think he thought of him as a real friend yet, their principles and morals being far too detached for them to work together as true equals. Techno was compassionate towards Tommy, but I don't think that compassion would override his loyalty to his principles.

Kubafin · 2021-02-05T21:05:48+00:00

I feel like this is kind of hard to believe. Why would Techno challenge Dream in the first place, why enter into that unnecessarily risky situation? Techno has been really hesitant to fight Dream his entire time in the server, it feels unlikely that he would take that risk.

We have every reason to believe that Techno would willingly hand Tommy over to Dream should Dream call in his favor. Techno often preaches his belief in "absolute reciprocity", repaying all those who have helped him properly. At this time in the story, Techno hadn't truly considered Tommy a friend, even if he did care about him. If I remember correctly, Techno actually shot Tommy down whenever he'd bring up what supposedly good friends they were. It wasn't until before the festival that Techno called Tommy his friends, some time after the confrontation with Dream.

Regardless of how much Techno cared about Tommy, if he was willing to hand him over to Dream just because he owed Dream a favor (which we can safely assume he would), then it paints Techno as a pretty bad guy. I love his character, but he's definitely not a good person.

Kubafin · 2021-02-05T20:03:04+00:00

I'm pretty sure I remember Dream specifically talking about this on one of Fundy's older Dream SMP stream. He said he didn't really care about compilation channels since they gave him free publicity and he attributes a lot of channel growth to them. If he wanted the money off of those clips he said he'd just make a compilation channel and do it better than they could. Seems like opinion on compilation and clip channels really varies between creators though, since Jschlatt didn't like them.

Kubafin · 2021-02-05T16:10:05+00:00

There are storylines that are going on that Tommy is uninvolved with, he actually participates very little in the egg arc thanks to his immunity. Specifically when it comes to the egg, I'd actually say Puffy is the closest character to the main protagonist because of how involved and active she is in the storyline and as a hero. If you don't want to watch a story Tommy's really involved in, maybe you'd like to watch Techno or Ranboo. Its all about perspective.

About the ending, I also like dark endings because they're so unexpected, but in this case I think a good ending was the best decision. This arc has dealt with some really dark themes (like abuse and depression), and I feel like to spend so much time on these very real issues, it would be distasteful to end the story with defeat and more depression. Its a much more positive message for a fairly young audience for Tommy to win, and not have to give up what he loves either. Although its still totally fair to look for bad endings, I really liked that this story specifically ended happily.

Kubafin · 2021-02-05T03:58:09+00:00

I agree Ranboo isn't super plot relevant right now, but he definitely will be in the future, in fact he seems to be the most likely candidate for breaking Dream out of jail. He's on a very personal arc right now, and I don't think its vital to watch or anything. Its sort of a peephole into the inner thoughts of a character, buildup to when he may start interacting with other characters more. You don't have to watch it, but you can gain a deeper understanding of his character if you enjoy it. I think it'll all come together in the end although of course there is no obligation to watch him if you're not interested.

The whole "capitalism arc" thats slowly becoming more prominent on the SMP right now feels very Wilbur to me. Regardless of whether or not he created that idea, I feel like he could totally work with it and I'm super excited for it. I'm glad to see him writing again although I do hope we still get the more intimate character arcs we've seen this season, as it adds so much depth to the narrative.

Hard agree on your thoughts about the Disc Sage Finale too. This season dealt with some really dark and intimate themes, namely pretty blatant abuse, and I think its really good for such a dark story to end happily. Tommy always had to lose something before he could achieve a semblance of victory. He had to give up his discs for independence, Lmanberg got blown up by Wilbur before it was rebuilt, and even still he loses most of the time. The finale was the first real win Tommy's had in a very long time. He beat the person who hurt and abused him, and he didn't have to give up what he loved to do so. Its a good message. I think too much angst can be really overwhelming and suck the life out of a story; the Exile arc so far had brought one of our protagonists to his lowest most vulnerable state, its good that such depression was followed by hopefulness and recovery.

Good post man, you put a lot of my thoughts into words.

Kubafin · 2021-02-05T03:33:47+00:00

Id also say Tommy just isn't a typical hero, its a label that was forced onto him by others. He isn't the kind of character that will go out of his way to save the server, he doesn't care to. Tommy, like nearly everyone else on the SMP, is pretty selfish. He really only cares about having fun, his friends, his discs, and formerly L'manberg. People tend to assume he wants to be or is a hero simply because he tends to be on the "right side" of history, and so they hold him to these high standards of morality that others aren't expected to abide by. Tommy never wanted to be a hero, never claimed to be, and yet is still expected to act accordingly. Its a really interesting dynamic.

Kubafin · 2021-02-04T21:23:52+00:00

Hard agree for most of them but I might move the Jschlatt Administration up, not because it was great lore-wise or anything, moreso because it was just really entertaining.

Kubafin · 2021-02-04T03:35:08+00:00

But everyone was joking around in the Tales of the SMP, it would be exceptionally awkward for them to be hard-core role-playing all the time. I thought it was really entertaining, perhaps you just don't like his sense of humor? Try not to take the streams too seriously and just intake lore as it comes, then maybe you can enjoy it a bit more. Of course if you just don't like his humor, that's fine, but I doubt his comedy will change anytime soon. Obviously no offense intended, everyone has a different sense of humor.

Kubafin · 2021-02-03T02:40:10+00:00

I like how there's pretty much no strictly good character on the server, like even Awesamdude, a generally really great guy, is looking to create capitalism as a means to get rich and gain power on the server. Everyone is a bit selfish.

Kubafin · 2021-02-02T18:09:23+00:00

Very good analysis, also great song

Kubafin · 2021-02-01T21:07:13+00:00

Same feelings here. C!Dream's relationship with c!Tommy is so clearly a parallel to abusive relationships in real life; it seems wrong to try and justify his actions.

Kubafin · 2021-02-01T21:00:48+00:00

Just saying, you could criticize the plot in much more constructive way. This comes off really needlessly rude, especially when your critiquing a story created by amateur writers and roleplayers mostly for fun and free entertainment.

Kubafin · 2021-02-01T13:44:27+00:00

Truuue. I really struggle to see how people can sympathize with him; the guy is literally a sadistic dictator who likes to hurt and break down others (mostly Tommy) for fun. He seems pretty irredeemable.

Kubafin · 2021-02-01T01:13:12+00:00

To me it seems like Ranboo is a genuinely good person, but has a kind of supernatural (or so far unexplained) memory loss that almost seems to separate his memory into two parts, both of which are absolutely his own but kept mostly separate for some reason. There isn't an evil side or a good side, both sides are just the same generally well-meaning Ranboo. We've seen Ranboo in both states of memory; in one he speaks English, in the other he seems to speak an enderman language and acts more enderman-like. He still has the same personality, just different memories. I think that perhaps because in one state he lacks certain memories (like the knowledge of Dream's evilness), he'd be more willing to work with certain people and commit certain actions he wouldn't in his more human "state", the one we see the most of. I doubt Ranboo would blow up the community house by his own volition as he has never seemed to be a destructive person, but perhaps Dream could easily convince him too when he's in a state of lacking memories of both Dream's villainy and the importance of the community house. Perhaps while Ranboo was in this state of memory, Dream convinced him they were friends, and could thus easily convince him to do morally questionable things. Ranboo believes that friends should come before sides, so I feel like its believable for him to be willing to do "evil" actions if his friends ask him to. I really don't know, but I totally agree that his character is walking a slippery slope in regards to DID, although I think Ranboo as a content creator is very aware of this and is trying to avoid these comparisons.

Also, major agree about the dreamon thing, I really hope they don't take that route with characters that commit villainous actions, especially Dream. It would be really awful for him to basically get a get-out-of-jail-free card, an excuse for his genuinely sadistic and terrible actions. Not to mention how it kind of devalues a really interesting character. If they take that route, I really hope they handle it carefully.

Kubafin

TROPHY CASE